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Messages - Peter

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1
General Discussion / Phones and Small Hand Held Devices
« on: January 29, 2013, 06:56:24 AM »
[edit 10-4-15] Our forum has been made "mobile friendly", through a free software update, so I am setting this topic as non-sticky.[end edit]

To read this forum on a phone, copy and paste the URL into this window at Google and click "go" then "go to page".

2
To read this forum on a phone, copy and paste the URL into this window at Google and click "go" then "go to page".

3
Particularly Buddhists are being targeted. You can browse the sites at this search:
http://www.bing.com/search?q=islamic+terrorism+persecution+thailand&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=islamic+terrorism+persecution+thailand&sc=0-0&sp=-1&sk=

Don't let this EXTREMELY GRAPHIC PAGE from Bare Naked Islam catch you by surprise as it did me when I was introduced to Islamic terrorism and persecution in Thailand.
I highly recommend avoiding this URL in that search.
http://www.barenakedislam.com/2013/01/05/thailand-muslim-behaving-badly-when-they-dont-get-their-way/

Here's another from their site on Islam in Thailand that is less graphic:
http://www.barenakedislam.com/2012/03/31/muslim-terrorists-set-off-bombs-in-southern-thailand-killing-14-wounding-341/

4
See “The Harbinger” by Jonathan Cahn to understand the seriousness for America being led from its early foundations.

Been a while since I've been on this board.

The Harbinger is eye opening.
Thanks. I just put it in my cart at amazon

5
After reviewing their site a little more I added a page to the BrotherPete site:
Best viewed at page link.
http://www.brotherpete.com/religious_pluralism.htm

Is the "International Interfaith Council" of God? Let's take a look at this exercise in religious pluralism, as advanced on their website at http://www.iicouncil.org. Page links will be embedded in the text from here on out. Their list of members includes several Christians whom it is hard to imagine have ever visited the website. When we click on the link to the webpage "Three Holy Books" we find listed are "Qur'an" "Torah" "Bible", which is peculiar enough, since the Torah is included in the Christian Bible. Jews and Christians share our Old Testament Scriptures, and understand them to be the inspired Word of God, while Muslims proclaim them to have been "corrupted". When we click on the "Bible" link we find a page that begins like this:

"Opening- True Gospel of Jesus, called Christ, a new prophet sent by God to the world: according to the description of Barnabas his apostle."

Now that certainly looks peculiar to a Scripture-literate Christian, particularly when announced as the "opening" of the "Bible". When we copy and paste the above verse into a search engine we find "The Gospel of Barnabas". The International Interfaith Council "Bible" page was deceptively titled "Bible", rather than "Gospel of Barnabas", an apparent subtly of dissimulation. Of course not only does this Gospel of Barnabas not constitute the "Bible", but there is no Gospel of Barnabas to be found anywhere in the bible, because it is a 16th century obviously Muhammadan, fictional forgery. It is nothing more than an exercise in religious dissimulation, or taqiyyah, that embarrasses anyone that has been foolish enough to tout it prior to actually reading it or learning about it.

So why would the "International Interfaith Council" provide that false gospel rather than link to an actual Bible, such as the most widely recognized and respected King James Version, as presented on many websites such as at Blue Letter Bible? Could it be that folks browsing the website would then have access to truth? If they had chosen the Gospel of Mark to represent the "Bible", rather than the phony gospel of Barnabas, this is how their page might have started:

Opening- Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Of course that  would have spoiled the party, because followers of Muhammad suggest that to believe and confess that Jesus is the Son of God, is to commit the most egregious and only unforgivable sin, of "shirk". According to many, even to pray in Jesus' name would constitute a sin worse than, for example, child rape or cold-blooded mass murder since those may be forgiven. This is further explored on that page of this site. Yet the Gospel proclaims:

1John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Thus it would seem that according to Muhammad's followers, each and every Christian throughout a period of nearly 2,000 years has lived, and died, in a state of committing Muhammad's only unforgivable sin. Would Muhammad's seem to be a just God, when raping a little girl or cold-blooded mass-murder may constitute forgivable sins, while praying in Jesus' name is unforgivable?

Yet not only does the website of the International Interfaith Council select a preposterous 16th century, conspicuous demonstrable fraud to represent the "Bible", here is what that abomination teaches in chapter 97:

"Then said the priest: `How shall the Messiah be called, and what sign shall reveal his coming?'

Jesus answered: `The name of the Messiah is admirable, for God himself gave him the name when he had created his soul, and placed it in a celestial splendour. God said: "Wait Mohammed; for thy sake I will to create paradise, the world, and a great multitude of creatures, whereof I make thee a present, insomuch that whoso bless thee shall be blessed, and whoso shall curse thee shall be accursed. When I shall send thee into the world I shall send thee as my messenger of salvation, and thy word shall be true, insomuch that heaven and earth shall fail, but thy faith shall never fail." Mohammed is his blessed name.'

Then the crowd lifted up their voices, saying: `O God, send us thy messenger: O Mohammed, come quickly for the salvation of the world!'"

Pure raw unadulterated blasphemy! Indeed that abomination should be recognized as pure blasphemy even to a follower of Muhammad!

To those who believe themselves to be Christians that are listed in the member page of the "International Interfaith Council" website, which suggests a presumption of support for the abominations advanced therein through association, you desperately need to repent before it is too late. Do you not even understand that the Quran prohibits Muhammad's followers from taking Jews and Christians for friends?

Sura 5:51 ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

"In other words, any Muslim who becomes a Christian or even befriends a Christian leaves the leadership and control of Allah.
So, all Islamic leaders who come to British and American Church leaders for inter-faith co-operation are either defying the instructions of Allah or they have a hidden agenda." - G.J.O. Moshay "Who is This Allah?"

Thus while engaging in religious dissimulation they put on a facade of friendship, which has always been their way, when setting out to conquer the ignorant and unwary. In other words you've been duped. As much as Christians might wish to, it is impossible to reconcile the Gospel to the exact opposite of it's whole subject. Perhaps a very public retraction of support for the International Interfaith Council is in order for those Christians, as well as an apology to Jesus Christ, and denouncement of and divorce from this abomination.

If Christian members disagree, simply explain before Jesus Christ and your Christian brethren, just how it is you lend your support to an organization that represents the "Bible", as being the Gospel of Barnabas. Please feel free to contact us in the Islam-Christian Forum to explain your position if you believe it to be defensible.

Romans 3:8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Would it even be slanderous for someone to report that is what Christian members of the International Interfaith Council are doing, while likely remaining silent in regard to the whole subject of the Gospel, which would be an obvious deal breaker? That verse does, however, describe what we find typical of Islamic religious dissimulation, found throughout the Internet and youtube communities, as exampled by their "Baca" is "Bakkah" nonsense. Has it been so long since Christian members of this council have picked up a bible, that they've forgotten what's at stake? You could stand in judgment this very day.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
Islam is the Opposite of Christianity (URL)

Many evangelical Christians consider Jews to be our brethren even though we understand why some of them may not feel the same way, as some may remain blind to the Gospel (verse by verse of Romans 11) through an act of God, to preclude them from sinning against it. Along with Romans 11 the two groups would seem to be suggested here:

1Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Yet Muhammad curses Jews and Christians while commanding his followers to fight against us and subjugate us:

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Worse than all, Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel.

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Here's the whole subject of the Gospel:

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

In Jesus' own prophecy:

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, 18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.

Not a stretch that the prophesied Messiah and His shed blood is the subject of the whole bible:

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

As pointed out on the home page Muhammad's proclamation of the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel - that Jesus wasn't crucified and didn't die - is all that a Christian needs to know about Islam. Islam 101, a complete course, in one verse. Additionally, according to the scriptures to deny the Son of God is antichrist.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:

The spirit of antichrist fills followers with complete resolve to DISbelieve the crucifixion, to DENY  the Son of God, and REJECT  His shed blood. Yet among the International Interfaith Council member list we find Christians may be involved in supporting that exercise in dissimulation.
 
More Taqiyyah or Subterfuge of Dissimulation (URL)

Taqiyyah and the subterfuge of religious dissimilation is advanced in the very opening of the home page of the website through a partial quote followed by a false proclamation:

"The world has been divided into religious groups. However, the order of God is clear: 'Do not divide into groups!'"

Putting that quote into a web search we find it may come from the "Worldwide English" translation. But what does the rest of 1Corinthians 1:10 say?

"My Christian brothers, I beg you all in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, agree in what you say. Do not divide into groups. You should all think in the same way and decide to do the same things."

It has absolutely nothing to do with Muhammad's followers, but has to do with Christians "in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ", to avoid making divisions amongst ourselves. Paul was addressing the church in Corinth. He also taught that Christians should all "think in the same way and decide to do the same things", which at a minimum, is to believe in and preach Christ crucified:

1Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

The most obvious reason it has nothing to do with the followers of the false prophet Muhammad is because Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel.

God manifest Himself in His Son, our Savior Jesus Christ, to reconcile the whole world unto Himself.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Yet if a follower of Muhammad were to make that simple confession he would be committing the most egregious - and only unforgivable sin - according to Muhammad alone.

Indeed the Gospel teaches that Christians are to expect the very opposite of that proclaimed in the opening of the International Interfaith Council website:

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

We find those verses perfectly fulfilled in Muhammad's follower's "honor killing" of family members that begin a life in Jesus Christ and even parents murdering their own children for coming to Christ. Satan's forces have aligned against Christ the Messiah and his followers ever since He was made manifest to the world.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
 
The 7th century Islamic Fiction of "Hanaf" or "faith of Abraham" (URL)

Contrary to what is indicated on the website, Christians follow the religion of Jesus Christ through the Gospel, not a fictional religion called "Hanaf" that sprang from the imagination of a 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling illiterate. The suggestion of "Hanaf" or a "religion of Abraham" comes from Islamic books penned in the 7th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual  historical record that preceded the 6th century AD. In fact there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD. Abraham did not practice a "religion", but rather had a direct relationship with YHWH Himself, even while manifest in the flesh. Indeed the ten commandments were given to Moses, not Abraham. Let alone that the only promise given to the seed of Ishmael is that they would be numerous and were prophesied to be against all mankind.

Genesis 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou [art] with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand [will be] against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Just as we find the self-proclaimed seed of Ishmael are revealed today. Fighting and murdering not only non-Muslims but each other as well. Nor did God ever have a covenant with the seed of Ishmael, but specifically proclaimed His covenant to be with the seed of Isaac.

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.

More on the "children of the flesh" and the Arabian pagan rituals Muhammad adopted, adapted and thinly veneered. The seed of Ishmael are specifically not included in God's Abrahamic covenants:

Genesis 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, [even] with Isaac. 11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
 
What Did Jesus Teach? (URL)

On the page "What did Jesus teach?", as with all dissimulation, once you establish the goal of the effort it's best to start at the bottom and conclusions reached, before wasting time with the process in getting there. Again, for any self-proclaimed Christians that are a part of this:

Rather than recognize Jesus' words as a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy the author which was unnamed on the website of proclaims:

"If Jesus had indeed been God, the words, "My God, my God," would have been a mockery most extreme. God could not have deemed himself forsaken by himself. The dying Jesus, in that despair, confessed himself either the dupe of some other teaching, a self- deluded enthusiast, or an arch-impostor, who in that bitter cry, with the wide-opening of the flood-gates through which life's stream ran out, confessed aloud that he, at least, was no deity, and deemed himself a God-forsaken man. The garden scene of agony is fitting prelude to this most terrible act. Jesus, who is God, prays to himself; in "agony he prayed most earnestly." [Luke xxii. 44.] He refuses to hear his own prayers, and he, the omnipotent, is forearmed against his coming trial by an angel from heaven, who "strengthened " the great Creator.

Was Jesus the Son of God? Praying, he said, Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee." [Jolan xvii. 2.] And was he glorified? His death and resurrection most strongly disbelieved in the very city where they are alleged to have happened. His doctrines rejected by the only people to whom he preached them. His miracles denied by the only nation amongst whom they are alleged to have been performed; and he himself thus on the cross crying out, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Nor is it true that the teachings of Jesus are generally received. Jesus taught: "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." How many of those who profess to believe in Jesus would be content to be tested by these signs? Any person claiming that each sign was to be found manifested in her or his case would be regarded as mad. Illustrations of faith-healing occasionally arise, but are not always reliable, nor are such cures limited to those who profess faith in Jesus. The gift of speaking with new tongues has been the claim of a very small sect. Serpent- charming is more practised among Hindus than among Christians.

Peace and love are alleged to be the special characteristics of Christianity. Yet the whole history of Christian nations has been blurred by war and hate. Now and for the past thirty years the most civilized amongst Christian nations have been devoting enorihous sums and huge masses of men to the preparation for war. Torpedoes and explosive shells, one hundred ton guns and melinite, are by Christian rulers accounted better aids than faith in Jesus."

So it should come as no surprise that when we put "God could not have deemed himself forsaken by himself. The dying Jesus, in that despair, confessed himself either the dupe of some other teaching" into a search engine we find this is the blasphemy of Charles Bradlaugh presented on "The Secular Web". From Wikipedia:

"Charles Bradlaugh (26 September 1833 – 30 January 1891) was a political activist and one of the most famous English atheists of the 19th century. He founded the National Secular Society in 1866.[1]"

We Christians that have been in the trenches of Internet forums are well experienced in Islamic dissimulation, and often find that in their desperation to run from the truth of the whole subject of the Gospel, it isn't unusual for Muhammad's followers to turn to atheists and agnostics for quotes in order to advance their blasphemy against the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Nor should we be surprised to find Muslims covertly engaged in the same, while pretending to be friends of Christians, in their efforts to subjugate God's people to the followers of Muhammad alone. Are we to expect that the Christians listed on the member page have been informed regarding the content of the site? May the Good Lord show enough mercy to at least one of the self-described Christians, that are engaged in this blasphemous exercise in dissimulation of the "International Interfaith Council", to give him the strength and resolve to very publically and continually renounce any association with it and its antichrist blasphemy.

2Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Whether an atheist, or a follower of the false prophet Muhammad who reject the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus, they can't expect to understand:

1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Their goals are obvious. No amount of website change will alter their intent or plan. Nor can the Gospel be reconciled with its exact opposite. Nor will wishful hopes and dreams, change a dangerous cult with a 1400 year history of imperialistic conquest and slaughter of God's people, that is commanded to the followers of the false prophet Muhammad. For those that have deluded themselves into believing they are Christian, that are participating in this sacrilegious abomination, again the risk:

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

This page is a result of just the first little bit of time I spent exploring the website of the International Interfaith Council, that I felt the need to rush to upload. There should be more to come.

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Ran across this site today from the UK. Only glanced over it but it appears experienced and sound.
http://www.ukmce.com/witnessing/sharing-the-gospel-with-muslim-people/?inAdmin=1

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This gets even more filthy than Muhammad's "Hanaf" fiction! This is some really sick twisted stuff. On their page "Three Holy Books"
http://www.iicouncil.org/default.aspx?pid=50293
When you get there you find listed: "Qur'an" "Torah" "Bible", which is peculiar enough, since the Torah is part of the Bible. So what do you get when you click on "Bible"?

A page that starts out like this:

"Opening- True Gospel of Jesus, called Christ, a new prophet sent by God to the world: according to the description of Barnabas his apostle."

Copy and paste that into a search engine and voila! The Gospel of Barnabas!!!
http://barnabas.net/chapters/271.html?task=view

A 16th century preposterous, conspicuous, provable Muhammadan forgery and fraud!
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=465.0
As exposed in this forum and so many other places on the web. A filthy lie that even teaches that Jesus said Muhammad is the Messiah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://barnabas.net/chapters/145-97-muhammad-is-his-blessed-name.html

"Then said the priest: `How shall the Messiah be called, and what sign shall reveal his coming?'

Jesus answered: `The name of the Messiah is admirable, for God himself gave him the name when he had created his soul, and placed it in a celestial splendour. God said: "Wait Mohammed; for thy sake I will to create paradise, the world, and a great multitude of creatures, whereof I make thee a present, insomuch that whoso bless thee shall be blessed, and whoso shall curse thee shall be accursed. When I shall send thee into the world I shall send thee as my messenger of salvation, and thy word shall be true, insomuch that heaven and earth shall fail, but thy faith shall never fail." Mohammed is his blessed name.'

Then the crowd lifted up their voices, saying: `O God, send us thy messenger: O Mohammed, come quickly for the salvation of the world!'


Pure raw unadulterated blasphemy! Even to a Muhammadan!

Gee, I wonder why they didn't choose the Gospel of Mark, for example, as the "Bible"?

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Yet they actually list Christians as being members of this abomination:
http://www.iicouncil.org/default.aspx?pid=49411

Either the site is lying about members, or the institutional church is in far worse shape than I ever could have possibly imagined.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm#religious_pluralism

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http://www.radicalislam.org/analysis/islamist-interfaith-deception/#fm

Islamist Interfaith Deception in Virginia

Wed, January 23, 2013
by:
Ryan Mauro

    Printer-friendly version

ICNA's new Islamic Center (Photo: Google Maps)Last month, a new mosque called the ICNA (Islamic Circle of North America) Islamic Center opened in Alexandria, Virginia. ICNA, an Islamist group with origins in the Jamaat-e-Islami of Pakistan, framed its inauguration as an interfaith victory, giving thanks to the three churches that let them worship on their premises as the mosque project was completed.

The two-story mosque replaced a house that was bought by ICNA in 2000. It says the facility cost $850,000 to build and can accommodate about 150 people. Good Shepherd Catholic Church, St. Luke’s Episcopal Church and Aldersgate United Methodist Church allowed ICNA’s Northern Virginia chapter to worship as the mosque was being built

ICNA’s use of Aldersgate United Methodist Church led to a favorable segment on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, which praised its pastor and mocked an evangelical critic. In one scene, the critic is seen saying mosques wouldn’t allow their premises to be used for Christian prayers. The correspondent joked about how embarrassing it’d be for him if the show cut to a clip of Christians being invited to a mosque.

Ironically, the clip shown on the Daily Show featured Mohammed El-Filali of the Islamic Center of Passaic County, a mosque with extensive ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. El-Filali led a chant comparing Israeli Prime Minister Sharon to Hitler at a rally in 2002. He also refused to condemn Palestinian suicide bombers in an interview with the Associated Press.

The pro-ICNA churches and the Daily Show apparently didn’t take the time to pop ICNA’s name into a search engine. If they did, it wouldn’t have taken long to find documentation of the group’s Islamist history.

Its origins lie with a Pakistani Islamist group called Jamaat-e-Islami. ICNA’s own publicIllustrative pictureation said in 1996 that it was founded with the “organizational development methodology” of Jamaat-e-Islami’s founder. A former ICNA president and secretary-general, Ashrafuzzaman Khan, was indicted by Bangladesh’s International Crimes Tribunal in October for his role as “chief executioner” in at least 18 horrific and brutal political assassinations in 1971. Khan belonged to the student wing of Jamaat-e-Islami.

A 1991 U.S. Muslim Brotherhood strategic memorandum, which says its “work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within,” lists ICNA as one of “our organizations and the organizations of our friends.” The memo refers to productive meetings between ICNA and the U.S. Muslim Brotherhood “in an attempt to reach a unity of merger.” ICNA has long held its annual conferences in conjunction with the Muslim American Society, an arm of the Muslim Brotherhood, in apparent fulfillment of this objective.

ICNA has not abandoned its Islamist ideology since then. Its 2010 handbook laid out a five-level strategy towards achieving a “united Islamic state, governed by an elected khalifah in accordance with the laws of shari’ah (Islamic law),” right in line with the Muslim Brotherhood doctrine of gradualism. Its last conference in December featured at least a dozen Islamist speakers, including ones that have supported Hamas and have ties to the Brotherhood. (Among the event’s sponsors were Turkish Airlines and the DISH Network.)

ICNA and its Islamist allies understand the power of the interfaith message. Interfaith relations have become a more prominent feature on their websites and their conferences. For example, American Muslims for Palestine had Reverend Donald Wagner of Evangelicals for Middle East Understanding speak at its conference. Major campaigns of activism are done with interfaith coalitions.

Another interfaith campaign ICNA is involved in is the placement of billboards in the Orlando and Daytona Beach areas that say, “Same Family, Same Message.” It directs readers to ICNA’s website, WhyIslam.org. These billboards aren’t just about making Jews, Christians and Muslims feel like they can relate to each other. It’s about dawah. The basis of Islam is that Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed are part of the same family with the same message from Allah. Islam is, in this view, the way all three faiths are hemmed together.

The "interfaith outreach" carried out by American Islamists runs contrary to the bloody images of the destruction of churches by Islamist terrorists. When Islamists in America (like ICNA) wear suits and ties and talk "interfaith,"  they appear to be the alternative Muslim voice we seek.

To be “moderate” is as simple as condemning terrorism and shaking hands with a pastor, and if you oppose this type of interfaith engagement and say something, then the uninformed see you as intolerant, paranoid and bigoted.

Unfortunately, for most Americans, it is easier to believe that critics of ICNA are fear-mongers than to believe that these groups can simultaneously be likeable, charitable and non-violent as well as deceptive and Islamist.

 

Ryan Mauro is RadicalIslam.org's National Security Analyst and a fellow with the Clarion Fund. He is the founder of WorldThreats.com and is frequently interviewed on Fox News.

This article was sponsored by the Institute on Religion and Democracy. It appeared originally on FrontPageMag.com

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This issue is heating up even more.
http://www.ucanews.com/news/outrage-over-plans-for-malaysian-bible-burning-festival/67199
Why on earth would Malaysian Christians not want to change the name from the name of blasphemy "Allah" to that of the one true God Yahweh in their bibles. While perhaps informing their fellow Muslim citizens:

1. Of the name of the one true God Yahweh as occurs nearly 7,000 times in scripture.
2. The Arabic language was unknown to the world until a few centuries into the Christian era.
3. The etymology of the name "Allah" suggests is was a pagan Arabian moon God.

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Is it only coincidental that the outer housing of what holds the "black stone" is rather vaginal looking? Yet another appeal to the carnal, natural man by satan?

Hi StreetPreacher and welcome to the forum! :)

Since we try to maintain a G-rated forum,  :-[ ;D suffice it to say that you are not the first to make that observation as this Bing search and YouTube search attest!

While putting together those links I visited a page devoted to defense of Islamic veneration of the Quraish pagan's black stone idol (the pagan's didn't worship the stone either - they venerated it as representing their god, just as Muslims do). I saw again the typical defense for kissing the black stone idol (which the hadith says was once white but sins of pilgrims turned it black):

Quote
Do Muslims Worship the Black Stone (al-Hajaru-l-Aswad)?

No.

Muslims do not worship this stone. Kissing does not constitute worship. In fact Umar, the second Khalifah and companion of the Prophet Muhammed (p), made this perfectly clear when he said:

Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "NO DOUBT, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you." [2]

This clearly shows us the back stone is not meant to be worshipped by Muslims. In fact this would negate a person’s iman (belief/faith), i.e. if a Muslim did worship the stone then he/she would be considered non-Muslim as only Allah has the right to be worshipped.

It struck me that their typical defense for kissing the stone, really helps drive home the point I was making with our most recent Muslim member.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=3485.msg14577#msg14577
That Muhammad's followers follow Muhammad alone.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2656.0
Tragically they have placed their faith and trust in Muhammad alone, to believe the exact opposite, of the whole subject of the Gospel.

Again, welcome to the forum StreetPreacher!

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http://answering-islam.org/Cross/crucifixion-day.html
Which Day Was Christ Crucified?

A contradiction often raised by skeptics, whether Muslims or others, centers on the day Christ was crucified. The Synoptic Gospels (i.e., Matthew, Mark and Luke) state that Christ was crucified on Friday, the day after Passover Eve. John, on the other hand, seems to imply that Christ was crucified the day before, on Thursday. We have decided to quote the late Dr. Gleason L. Archer’s entire response from his book, Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, since he does a masterful job of showing that no real contradiction exists between these accounts.

    Was Christ crucified on Thursday or Friday?

    The uniform impression conveyed by the synoptic Gospels is that the Crucifixion took place on Friday of Holy Week. If it were not for John 19:14, the point would never have come up for debate. But John 19:14 says (according to NASB): "Now it was the day of preparation [paraskeue] for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he [Pilate] said to the Jews, ‘Behold, your king!’" The NIV suggests a somewhat less difficult handling of the apparent discrepancy: "It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour." This latter translation takes note of two very important matters of usage. First, the word paraskeue had already by the first century A.D., become a technical term for "Friday," since every Friday was the day of preparation for Saturday, that is, the Sabbath. In Modern Greek the word for "Friday" is paraskeue.

    Second, the Greek term tou pascha (lit., "of the Passover") is taken to be equivalent to the Passover Week. This refers to the seven-day Feast of Unleavened Bread (Heb. massot) that immediately followed the initial slaughtering and eating of the Passover lamb on the evening of the fourteenth day of the month Abib, which by Hebrew reckoning would mean the commencement of the fifteenth day, right after sunset. The week of masso-t, coming right after on the heels of Passover itself (during which masso-t were actually eaten, along with the lamb, bitter herbs, etc.) very naturally came to be known as Passover Week (cf. Encyclopedia Britannica, 14th ed., 12:1041), extending from the fifteenth to the twenty-first of Abib, inclusively. (Arndt and Gingrich [Greek-English Lexicon, pp. 638-639] state: "This [i.e., Passover] was followed immediately by the Fast of Unleavened Bread … on the 15th to the 21st. Popular usage merged the two festivals and treated them as a unity, as they were for practical purposes.") It was unnecessary to insert a specific term for "week" (such as sa-bua) for it to be understood as such. Therefore, that which might be translated literally as "the preparation of the Passover" must in this context be rendered "Friday of Passover Week."

    It turns out, therefore, that John affirms just as clearly as the Synoptics that Christ was crucified on Friday and that His sacrificial death represented an antitypical fulfillment of the Passover ordinance itself, which was instituted by God in the days of the Exodus as a means of making Calvary available by faith to the ancient people of God even before the coming of Christ.

    Note that in 1 Corinthians 5:7 Jesus is referred to as the Passover Lamb for believers: "Purge out the old leaven, so that you may be a new lump, just as you were unleavened. For Christ, our Lamb was sacrificed for us." The statement of E. C. Hoskyns on John 19:14 is very appropriate here: "The hour of the double sacrifice is drawing near. It is midday. The Passover lambs are being prepared for sacrifice, and the Lamb of God is likewise sentenced to death" (The Fourth Gospel [London: Farber and Farber, 1940], ad. loc.). It simply needs to be pointed out that the lambs referred to here are not those that were slaughtered and eaten in private homes-a rite Jesus had already observed with His disciples the night before ("Maundy Thursday")- but the lambs to be offered on the altar of the Lord on behalf of the whole nation of Israel. (For the household observance on the evening of the fourteenth of Abib, cf. Exod. 12:6; for the public sacrifice on the altar, cf. Exod. 12:16-17; Lev. 23:4-8; 2 Chron. 30:15-19; 35:11-16. These were all known as Passover sacrifices, since they were presented during Passover week.)

    Thus it turns out that there has been a simple misunderstanding of the phrase paraskeue tou pascha that has occasioned such perplexity that even Guthrie (New Bible Commentary, p. 964) deduced an original error, for which he had no solution to offer. The various ingenious explanations offered by others, that Christ held His personal Passover a night early, knowing that He would be crucified before the evening of the fourteenth; that Christ and His movement held to a different calendar, reckoning the fourteenth to be a day earlier than the calendar of the official Jerusalem priesthood; or that He was following a revised calendar observed by the Essenes at Qumran-all these theories are quite improbable and altogether unnecessary. There is no contradiction whatever between John and the Synoptics as to the day on which Christ died — it was Friday. (Archer, Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties [Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1982], pp. 375-376)

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http://www.blueletterbible.org/commentaries/comm_view.cfm?AuthorID=1&contentID=7165&commInfo=25&topic=John&ar=Jhn_19_36

So, the three Mary's there at the cross.

And when Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he said to his mother, Woman, behold your son! (Jhn 19:26)

No doubt, indicating John.

Then he said to the disciple, Behold your mother! And from that hour that disciple took her into his own home (Jhn 19:27).

A beautiful bond between Jesus and His mother Mary. She had born a secret for a long time, the secret of the incarnation. She knew that the child was a special child. The angel of the Lord had told her that before she ever conceived Him by the Holy Spirit. "He shall be great, He shall be called the Son of the Highest. And of the increase of His government and peace, there shall be no end." And Mary buried that in her heart, wondering, "Oh my, what kind of child is this going to be?" And when Joseph and Mary brought Him into the temple to be presented unto the Lord, this ancient man Simeon, a godly man, and the Lord had said unto him, "Simeon, you're not going to die until you have seen the Messiah." And as Mary and Joseph came with the child, he took Him up in his arms and he said, "Oh God, now let your servant depart in peace, for I have seen Your salvation." But he turned to Mary and he said, "There's going to be a sword that will pierce your soul." And right now, Mary was understanding what he was talking about as that sword of grief pierced her soul as she saw her son there on the cross. Mary standing there close by the cross to see the end. "If I were hanged on the highest hill, oh mother of mine, oh mother of mine, I know whose love would follow me still, oh mother of mine, oh mother of mine." And there was Mary, standing. And Jesus, though in this period of agony, great pain, took care to take care of her. "Woman, behold your son!" Indicating John. "John, behold your mother!" And John took her into his home from that time on. No doubt Joseph was already dead. And the brothers of Jesus at this point did not believe in Him. There is a closer bond always created in the family of God than even in our natural families, if they are not also in God. "Behold your mother!" "Behold your son!"

After this, Jesus (Jhn 19:28)

Having taken care of His mother, this is it. Having done this,

knowing that all things were now accomplished (Jhn 19:28),

As we told you, this word teleo is accomplished or paid or finished, "...knowing that all things were now accomplished,"

that the scripture might be fulfilled, he said, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. And when Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished (Jhn 19:28-29):

Teleo, it is accomplished, it is paid! God's work is complete! "I came not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. I have come to do the will of the Father, and to finish his work. It is finished!" God's work of redemption for lost man is a finished work wrought by Jesus Christ upon the cross, and there's nothing you can add to it by your good works to be accepted by God. All you can do is receive that finished work of Jesus. Any endeavor on your part to improve on the righteousness that God has already accounted to you is only going to mar things, it's not going to help. It's finished, God's work of redemption is complete. And you can receive the greatest benefits with the simplest act of faith, just believing.

and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost (Jhn 19:30).

Or dismissed His Spirit, delivered up His Spirit.

The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the body should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day (Jhn 19:31),

Notice John says,

(for that sabbath day was a high day,) (Jhn 19:31)

Within the Passover feast, the first and the last day of the Passover feast were called high days, extra Sabbath days. So, this was not necessarily the Sabbath Saturday. And there is where we get a confusion; how could Jesus be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth if He were crucified on Friday? So, the high day Sabbath was probably the Thursday, so they had a double Sabbath day. And Jesus was probably crucified during the day on Thursday. And then, the Sabbath day on Friday, actually, and then the Sabbath day on Saturday; the double Sabbath on Friday and Saturday. And then early the morning of the first day of the week they came and found the empty tomb. But John, notice, tells us that this was a particular ceremonial Sabbath day in regards to the Passover; it was the high day.

But because it was coming and they were preparing for it and they could not do any work and all, when it started they begged Pilate that the legs might be broken in order that they might hasten the death and get the prisoners down off the cross.

Now, crucifixion was begun in Persia. Because the Persians considered the ground sacred, if a man was evil enough to be crucified, they felt that his body shouldn't be placed in the ground. So, they were hung on a cross. And after they died their bodies were then eaten by the vultures, and thus, their bodies did not spoil the ground. Most generally, they did not bury those who were crucified, but they left them to the vultures and to the dogs. And the Jews, however, did bury those that were crucified. But the Romans generally did not, the Carthegians did not, nor did the Persians who originated crucifixion, but left them just hanging there until they were consumed by the vultures and the dogs.

Now, they wanted to break the legs so they could hasten the death and take them down before the Sabbath.

And the soldiers came, and they broke the legs of the first, and of the other who was crucified with Jesus. But when they came to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, and they broke not his legs (Jhn 19:32-33):

Jesus had said earlier, "No man takes My life from Me. I'm giving My life. I have the power to give it, and I have the power to take it up again." So, He gave His life; He dismissed His Spirit before the soldiers ever got there with the spear. He was already dead. They marveled that He was already dead. And so, they did not break His legs.

That was important from a prophetic standpoint, for the scripture said, "Not a bone of Him shall be broken." You see, He was dying as a sacrificial Lamb of God. Now, they were not to offer a lamb that had any blemish or any spot or any broken bone. God didn't want an old sick lamb. You say, "Well, it's got a broken leg and it's going to die. Let's make a sacrifice unto God with this thing." God says, "No way, don't give me your hand-offs, or your cast-offs." And so, under the law they couldn't give a lamb that had a spot or a blemish. They couldn't give a lamb that had broken bones. God knew the nature of man, how we're apt to just cast anything off on Him, save the best for ourselves. And God says, "Not so!" And so, with Jesus, in order to fulfill the type of the sacrificial lamb, could not have a broken bone. And it was prophesied, "Not a bone of Him shall be broken." Now, had one of those soldiers just, you know, swung the sledgehammer and broke His leg anyhow, then we would have to say, "Well, we better look for another Messiah. Jesus cannot be the Messiah. His bones were broken." Oh, God was there to protect from such an accident.

And instead of breaking His bone, he took his spear and put it into His side in order that the scripture that might be fulfilled that spoke about His side being pierced. No broken bones, but they pierced His side. And thus, the prophecy was fulfilled. And we need look no further for a Messiah. Jesus indeed fulfilled all of the prophecies. It is accomplished, performed, paid, fulfilled!

One of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and there came forth blood and water. And he that saw it (Jhn 19:34-35),

That is John, "I was standing there, I saw it..."

he bears record and his record is true; and he knows what he is saying, that it is true (Jhn 19:35),

"And I'm writing it," he said,

that you might believe (Jhn 19:35).

John said, "Look, I was there. I saw it. I know what I saw, I bear record of the truth of what I saw and I'm writing it to you that you might believe."

For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture says, They shall look on him whom they pierced (Jhn 19:36-37).

That particular prophecy, "They shall look upon Him whom they have pierced," it's a different Hebrew word than the word used, "They pierced His hands and His feet." It's a piercing with a sword. "And they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced." The fact that blood and water came forth indicates that if an autopsy were performed, they would have discovered that Jesus died of a ruptured heart. For when the heart ruptures, a watertight substance fills a sack around the heart. And when they put the spear into His heart and pulled it out, the water and blood indicates death by a ruptured heart, or you might say a broken heart. A heart that was broken over the sin of the world.

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http://www.blueletterbible.org/commentaries/comm_view.cfm?AuthorID=4&contentID=1685&commInfo=5&topic=John&ar=Jhn_19_37

IV. The attestation of the truth of this by an eye-witness (v. 35), the evangelist himself. Observe,

1. What a competent witness he was of the matters of fact. (1.) What he bore record of he saw; he had it not by hearsay, nor was it only his own conjecture, but he was an eyewitness of it; it is what we have seen and looked upon (1 Jn. 1:1; 2 Pt. 1:16), and had perfect understanding of, Lu. 1:3. (2.) What he saw he faithfully bore record of; as a faithful witness, he told not only the truth, but the whole truth; and did not only attest it by word of mouth, but left it upon record in writing, in perpetuam rei memoriam—for a perpetual memorial. (3.) His record is undoubtedly true; for he wrote not only from his own personal knowledge and observation, but from the dictates of the Spirit of truth, that leads into all truth. (4.) He had himself a full assurance of the truth of what he wrote, and did not persuade others to believe that which he did not believe himself: He knows that he saith true. (5.) He therefore witnessed these things, that we might believe; he did not record them merely for his own satisfaction or the private use of his friends, but made them public to the world; not to please the curious nor entertain the ingenious, but to draw men to believe the gospel in order to their eternal welfare.

2. What care he showed in this particular instance. That we may be well assured of the truth of Christ’s death, he saw his heart’s blood, his life’s blood, let out; and also of the benefits that flow to us from his death, signified by the blood and water which came out of his side. Let this silence the fears of weak Christians, and encourage their hopes, iniquity shall not be their ruin, for there came both water and blood out of Christ’s pierced side, both to justify and sanctify them; and if you ask, How can we be sure of this? You may be sure, for he that saw it bore record.

V. The accomplishment of the scripture in all this (v. 36): That the scripture might be fulfilled, and so both the honour of the Old Testament preserved and the truth of the New Testament confirmed. Here are two instances of it together:—

1. The scripture was fulfilled in the preserving of his legs from being broken; therein that word was fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. (1.) There was a promise of this made indeed to all the righteous, but principally pointing at Jesus Christ the righteous (Ps. 34:20): He keepeth all his bones, not one of them is broken. And David, in spirit, says, All my bones shall say, Lord, who is like unto thee? Ps. 35:10. (2.) There was a type of this in the paschal lamb, which seems to be specially referred to here (Ex. 12:46): Neither shall you break a bone thereof; and it is repeated (Num. 9:12), You shall not break any bone of it; for which law the will of the law-maker is the reason, but the antitype must answer the type. Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us, 1 Co. 5:7. He is the Lamb of God (ch. 1:29), and, as the true passover, his bones were kept unbroken. This commandment was given concerning his bones, when dead, as of Joseph’s, Heb. 11:22. (3.) There was a significancy in it; the strength of the body is in the bones. The Hebrew word for the bones signifies the strength, and therefore not a bone of Christ must be broken, to show that though he be crucified in weakness his strength to save is not at all broken. Sin breaks our bones, as it broke David’s (Ps. 51:8); but it did not break Christ’s bones; he stood firm under the burden, mighty to save.

2. The scripture was fulfilled in the piercing of his side (v. 37): They shall look on me whom they had pierced; so it is written, Zec. 12:10. And there the same that pours out the Spirit of grace, and can be no less than the God of the holy prophets, says, They shall look upon me, which is here applied to Christ, They shall look upon him. (1.) It is here implied that the Messiah shall be pierced; and here it had a more full accomplishment than in the piercing of his hands and feet; he was pierced by the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, wounded in the house of his friends, as it follows, Zec. 13:6. (2.) It is promised that when the Spirit is poured out they shall look on him and mourn. This was in part fulfilled when many of those that were his betrayers and murderers were pricked to the heart, and brought to believe in him; it will be further fulfilled, in mercy, when all Israel shall be saved; and, in wrath, when those who persisted in their infidelity shall see him whom they have pierced, and wail because of him, Rev. 1:7. But it is applicable to us all. We have all been guilty of piercing the Lord Jesus, and are all concerned with suitable affections to look on him.

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Judaism / "A Bone of Him Shall Not Be Broken" - the Passover Lamb of God
« on: January 23, 2013, 02:03:49 PM »
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

A Messianic prophecy regarding His bones not being broken from the Old Testament:

Psalms 34:18 The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. {unto...: Heb. to the broken of heart} {of a contrite...: Heb. contrite of spirit}   19 Many [are] the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.   20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.   21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate. {desolate: or, guilty}   22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate. {desolate: or, guilty}

Confirmed

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away.   32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.   33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:   34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.   35 And he that saw [it] bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.   36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.   37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

They broke the legs of the other two to expedite their death, but when they came to Jesus they saw He was dead and didn't break His, fulfilling the prophecy. Also uncustomary was their piercing of His side, providing a double header of fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy in two consecutive verses.

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

More on the Passover Lamb and the not breaking of bones:

Exodus 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,   2 This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you.   3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house: {lamb: or, kid}   4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take [it] according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.   5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take [it] out from the sheep, or from the goats: {of...: Heb. son of a year}   6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. {in...: Heb. between the two evenings}   7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike [it] on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.   8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; [and] with bitter [herbs] they shall eat it.   9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast [with] fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.   10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.   11 And thus shall ye eat it; [with] your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it [is] the LORD'S passover.   12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I [am] the LORD. {gods: or, princes}   13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye [are]: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy [you], when I smite the land of Egypt. {to destroy...: Heb. for a destruction}   14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.   15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.   16 And in the first day [there shall be] an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save [that] which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. {man: Heb. soul}   17 And ye shall observe [the feast of] unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.   18 In the first [month], on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.   19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.   20 Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread.   21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover. {lamb: or, kid}   22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip [it] in the blood that [is] in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that [is] in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.   23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite [you].   24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.   25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.   26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?   27 That ye shall say, It [is] the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.   28 And the children of Israel went away, and did as the LORD had commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.   29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that [was] in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. {dungeon: Heb. house of the pit}   30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for [there was] not a house where [there was] not one dead.   31 And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, [and] get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the LORD, as ye have said.   32 Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also.   33 And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste; for they said, We [be] all dead [men].   34 And the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneadingtroughs being bound up in their clothes upon their shoulders. {kneadingtroughs: or, dough}   35 And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment:   36 And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them [such things as they required]. And they spoiled the Egyptians.   37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot [that were] men, beside children.   38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, [even] very much cattle. {a mixed...: Heb. a great mixture}   39 And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual.   40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, [was] four hundred and thirty years.   41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.   42 It [is] a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this [is] that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations. {a night...: Heb. a night of observations}   43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This [is] the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:   44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.   45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.   46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.   47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. {keep...: Heb. do it}   48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.   49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.   50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.   51 And it came to pass the selfsame day, [that] the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.

Numbers 9:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,   10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or [be] in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD.   11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, [and] eat it with unleavened bread and bitter [herbs].   12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.   

15
For the same passage from the Tanach form the website of Orthodox Jews please click here:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=3389.0

(KJV) Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? {report: or, doctrine?: Heb. hearing?}   2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.   3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. {we hid...: or, he hid as it were his face from us: Heb. as an hiding of faces from him, or, from us}   4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.   5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. {wounded: or, tormented} {stripes: Heb. bruise}   6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. {laid...: Heb. made the iniquity of us all to meet on him}   7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.   8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. {from prison...: or, away my distress and judgment: but, etc} {was he...: Heb. was the stroke upon him}   9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. {death: Heb. deaths}   10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. {thou...: or, his soul shall make an offering}   11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.   12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I'll defer to the webpage with a version from the Tanach at chabad.org, as well as the King James and with embedded links, on the IslamAndTheTruth website:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm

Specifically the passover Lamb to the slaughter:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=3080.0

16
Judeo-Christian - General / Re: ChristianEschatology.com
« on: January 23, 2013, 11:08:18 AM »
Considerably more content has been added since the first upload.

17
General Discussion / Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« on: January 19, 2013, 05:21:47 AM »
All of that, and we barely got started on discussing the character of the man/men that you follow, as revealed through Muhammad's stand-alone 23 year 7th century record:
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=coitus&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

Can you list for us all the reasons, that Muhammad's followers prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day, besides Muhammad told his followers to?
http://www.historyofmecca.com/

(Book #92, Hadith #448) He will reply. '(My witnesses are) Muhammad and his followers.'
(Book #93, Hadith #601) I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!'.....
(Book #60, Hadith #264) Lo! Some men from my followers will be brought and taken towards the left side...
(Book #78, Hadith #627) Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet said, "O followers of Muhammad! By Allah, if you knew what I know, you would weep much and laugh little."
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2656.0
Indeed. Even Muhammad wondered where he was going after he died. No assurance of salvation

Let me give you some help with your answer to listing all the reasons you follow Muhammad.
Can you list all the reason that Muhammad's followers kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca?

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The main page of the site begins by being titled with the 7th century Islamic pure fiction of a "religion of Abraham" of "Hanaf".
"The Religion of our father Abraham
Hanif Religion in Old Testament, New Testament and Quran"

There was never any such religion except in 7th century Muhammadan fiction. Indeed even the 10 commandments were given to Moses, not Abraham. Abraham never had a "religion" but a personal relationship with God. Something Christians enjoy through Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit today. Something Muslims are left out of.
Indeed praying in Jesus name constitutes the most egregious - and only unforgivable sin - according to Muhammad. Thus each and every Christian over the last nearly 2,000 years has lived and died in a state of committing a sin worse than, for example, child rape or cold blooded murder.
http://www.brotherpete.com/unforgivable_shirk.htm

Then the site proceeds to get worse from there.

Quote
A. The Situation of The World Today

The world has been divided into religious groups. However, the order of God is clear: “Do not divide into groups!

So it opens with a deception. The following is from the "Worldwide English Version" from which I presume his quote was lifted. Let's look at the whole verse:

"My Christian brothers, I beg you all in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, agree in what you say. Do not divide into groups. You should all think in the same way and decide to do the same things."

It has absolutely nothing to do with Muslims. The reason is because Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel. God sent His Son, our Savior, to reconcile the whole world unto Himself.

1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Yet to do so a Muslim commits the most egregious - and only unforgivable - sin according to Muhammad alone. Christians follow the religion of Jesus Christ, not a religion of a fiction that sprang from the mind of a 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling illiterate called "Hanaf".

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Just as we find Muhammadan parents murdering their own children for coming to Christ.
http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=DLDWGGNX

Let alone that the only promise given to the seed of Ishmael is that they would be numerous and against mankind. Just as we see the self-proclaimed Ishmaelites today.

Gen 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou [art] with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand [will be] against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

God specifically never had any covenant with the seed of Ishmael, but did specifically proclaim His covenant with the seed of Isaac.

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

Specifically not included in God's Abrahamic covenants:

Genesis 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, [even] with Isaac. 11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

19
General Discussion / Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« on: January 16, 2013, 04:08:28 PM »
You have mostly responded to my previous post by using quotes from the bible, in what I believe is an effort to support your point of view. The problem with that though is as much as I respect the Bible and value my relationship with many good people who are Christians, I don’t believe the Bible is anywhere close to been the Word of God, just as am sure you also don’t believe what I believe in is anywhere even close to the words of God, so how can you use what I don’t believe in to respond to my points?

And after blaspheming the Word of God while deluding yourself with unctuous platitudes like "as much as I respect the Bible" which is preposterous lie since you believe the exact opposite of its whole subject, we can see how God weighs in:

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

So since Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel, and because of your faith in him you reject the scriptures of the one truth God YHWH, you were instead given a chance to explain why you believe solely Muhammad's words for other reasons, like history, archaeology, and geography, but were then rendered mute. Perhaps this is because it should have become as apparent to you, as to anyone with the remotest ability to engage in critical thought, that it is the exact opposite of the one true God, that you in fact follow. Your epic failure to support Muhammad's words even after you amusingly wrote:

In fact how can even God expect us to believe in what does not make sense and is illogical on the basis of faith? That would be injustice for it is He who created us to think with our minds and not heart. The way to the heart is through the mind; which is why information or knowledge based on logic increases ones faith and information that is illogical, but still accepted through faith is fanaticism. Fanaticism means we are guided by our emotions and desires, instead of God conscience

Can you defend your faith based on reason and invite people to accept salvation through your faith through the same?

Can you see how your mind has been rendered dysfunctional, even as you describe your faith in Muhammad alone, let alone his flying donkey-mule, as if it were logical to do so. Satan even compels you to believe that all Christians over the last nearly 2,000 years are guilty of Muhammad's - and thus obviously Satan's - only unforgivable sin. Guiltier of worse sin than Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan, the Mufti of Jerusalem and the false prophet Muhammad himself.

EXACTLY: As you said you couldn't give an answer because it would go against the words given to you by God according your scripture.

For Him to take the form of a man, according to ours would be an abomination-a sin beyond any other that is unforgivable if one dies in that state, unless he or she repents and turns to the one and only lord.

You mean "repents and turns to" Muhammad alone.
I showed you exactly how YHWH revealed Himself to Abraham in the flesh of a man, so many centuries before He did so, in the person of His Son our Savior the Prince of Peace.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=3485.msg14555#msg14555
Can't even you begin to see that only an entirely unjust and opposite "god" named Satan would suggest that praying in Jesus name at any time and in any direction one chooses to an omnipresent God, would be a sin worse than child rape or cold blooded mass murder, while praying in the name of the Arabian pagan's deity "Allah" while prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca would be what the one true God Yahweh wants us to do?

Why not see what some of your former followers of Muhammad brethren found, after they hit the wall that you just have. They came to know the love of the one true holy and just God:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1259.0

20
I was informed through another forum: "For those of you who may be living in the Tidewater area in Virginia, specifically Chesapeake, the Muslims in that area have begun an aggressive outreach by visiting local Sunday Schools. They are handing out "tracts" and sitting in on the studies. They are not disruptive. They are trying to get people to come to their meetings in an attempt to bring us all together. Unfortunately that cannot happen unless they are willing to admit that Jesus died and rose from the dead and no one can come to the Father except through Him.

Please pray that the Christians can turn these visits into constructive opportunities to witness to these lost souls."

What a magnificent opportunity! Unprecedented in this day and age. Not only being able to reciprocate by handing tracts back to the Muslims who passed theirs out, but by having done so Muslims have opened the door to Christians joining them in their mosque, and passing out tracts to the Muslims worshiping there! I urge the Christians in those churches to reciprocate with tracts from "Islam and the Truth.com"
Particularly regarding the whole subject of the Gospel with a little Islam intro:
The Crucifixion of Jesus Christ in Prophecy
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/m30.pdf
Do you Love Jesus?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/m1a.pdf
And many more:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/free_tracts.htm

After getting requests from other forum members, he hoped to get his hands on the tracts, but the minister told him he could find the same info on this website related to those doing the infiltrating:
http://www.iicouncil.org/default.aspx?pid=49938&nid=36964

Here we find a group wishing there were an equivalence, between the one true God of the Jews and Christians name YHWH, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years.....

.....and a god in the name of a pagan Arabian deity named "Allah", followed by members of a cult through a single 7th century false prophet from the SW Arabian desert, who lived 1200 kilometers from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs, who proclaimed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel. Prostrating themselves five times a day toward the very same black stone idol that the Quraish pagans venerated long before Muhammad continued the tradition. Even traveling to that idol and engaging in thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn devil worship rituals.
http://brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm

Some Christians, this author included, recognize Jews as my brethren and understand that they may not view me as the same, because scripture may indicate that some Jews may remain blind to the Gospel by an act of God, so they can't sin against it. Please review the page at this link on this "spirit of slumber":
http://israelinbibleprophecy.com/spirit_of_slumber.htm

Christians are commanded to love our enemies:

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

As Don Richardson reports regarding Jews in "Secrets of the Koran", "By Muhammad's day, 1,500 years had passed since any Hebrew prophet was described in the Old Testament as using a sword in the service of God. Neither Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah, Amos, Malachi nor any other later Hebrew prophet is described as using the sword or prescribing its use."

Nor do our Old Testament scriptures command Jews specifically to deny the Son of God and reject His shed blood as articles of their faith in YHWH. Indeed many Jews are brought into relationship with Christ through prophecy of His crucifixion in the Psalms and in Isaiah.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Muhammad always the exact opposite, the followers of the false prophet Muhammad are commanded to conquer all kingdoms and subjugate all people, to denying the Son of God and rejecting His saving shed blood:

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Of course a filthy blasphemy for a Christian to "testify" to.

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

This Second Islamic Jihad in the image of the First Islamic Jihad near conquest of the whole known world, before being stopped in Tours France.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#jihad

Quran Sura 9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

A satanic lie regarding the Gospel binding fighting and slaying on anyone, but a "promise" that is "binding" on the followers of the false prophet Muhammad through the Quran.

Muhammad's followers follow Muhammad alone. Far beyond folly it is a blasphemous satanic exercise to attempt to marry an antichrist, Satan inspired false prophet and the only anti-a-specific-religion cult on earth - with Judeo-Christianity. With the very religion of which Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of its whole subject. Indeed not a stretch to suggest the whole subject of all the scriptures. The only promise made regarding the seed of Ishmael is that they would be numerous.

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

If there are any that believe themselves to be Christians, included in such a blasphemous abomination (and based on the materials it looks like little more than Islamic subterfuge and taqiyyah since they even mention the fiction of "Hanaf"), they are either ignorant to the Gospel or are hereby put on notice this goes far beyond ecumenism and even beyond religious pluralism. You are trying to marry Satan with the Gospel. Let alone the absurdity that there is not a shred of scriptural, historical, archaeological or geographical evidence that suggests, that Mecca ever even existed before the 4th century AD. This makes Muhammadanism a provable preposterous fraud. Followers of an invention of the 7th century AD that was further embellished in writings that date into the 10th century AD. Islamic - what can only be called "tradition" - that was all created from thin air in the 7th to 10th centuries AD, without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 6th century AD.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#jihad

Dancing around the very thing we are called to preach: 1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Instead of preaching Christ crucified, they are actually applying the term "submission" to the Gospel. When the very name "Islam" means "submission"! Christianity is about a relationship with our Creator. With our Lord and Savior.
Anything in their material about what that relationship is all about, which is through faith in the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, through faith in the saving grace from the shed blood of the Messiah?

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Any warnings for the false prophet Muhammad's followers?

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

No surprise they did not cite from the hundreds of verses that declare the Son of God and His Father. Another Islamic opposite.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Any person that had thought himself to be a Christian engaged in this sort of subterfuge, is only helping those sorely deluded folks remain on their path, to what scripture indicates is their destruction.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

And for those that would engage in such as supporting the false prophet:

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

By ignoring that WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, and pretending the false prophet Muhammad is anything but the EXACT OPPOSITE, they may well be putting themselves on far beyond thin ice:

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What kind of Christian could do such a thing? I could use some help in taking their stuff apart in the following posts, so that if anyone happens along here, that has fallen for their deception, we can help them see it is exactly that.
http://www.iicouncil.org/default.aspx?pid=49938&nid=36964

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Preterists reject the stunning reality of Jews raising their flag over Israel in 1948, and fulfilling the "times of the Gentiles" in Jerusalem in 1967, as vindicating John Darby's eschatology, even though his eschatology called for that restoration. I know it set the futurist Christian community on fire at the time, with this vindication as proof of their eschatology, when that event took place in 1948. It should have also proven simultaneously devastating to partial preterism, though I don't know if they were skulking around with their tails between their legs at the time or not. Based on the reluctance we see in both futurists and preterists in this forum to even consider, anything other than those two eschatologies, I'd guess not.

I would agree that restoration didn't vindicate futurism. However through the traditional historicist approach to prophecy I do recognize the restoration of Jews to their land as having been prophesied, as Christians like Matthew Henry and others anticipated of that restoration, centuries before it began to take place. Yet in spite of the stunning reality, preterists reject it as fulfillment of prophecy, because their doctrine won't allow for it.
Preterists also reject that the "abomination of desolation" Jesus mentioned in the Olivet Discourse may have referred to something other than the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD, even though Islamic Gentiles took over from the Roman Gentiles and reigned until they had rendered Jerusalem a completely spiritually as well as physically, desolated, deforested, denuded, desertified and depopulated wasteland. That Roman sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD was just the beginning of its ultimate desolation during the "times of the Gentiles" in Jerusalem.

But just as that desolation was prophesied, so was the restoration thereof:

Eze 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities [are become] fenced, [and] are inhabited.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/christian_zionism.htm

Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you.....

Now let's look at a verse in the Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains

It's pretty obvious that if Christians had waited until the Roman soldiers, or "The Roman sign was a straight staff, capped with a metallic eagle, and right under the eagle was a graven image of Caesar", or any other such thing to "stand in the holy place" it would have obviously been too late for them to get out of Dodge. And obviously if they had gotten out beforehand, they wouldn't have seen it. More of a case against their departure having been related to the Olivet Discourse, and the Roman sacking of Jerusalem, being related to the "abomination of desolation".
(Here's a thread on this subject for futurists): http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...-of-Desolation

Now let's look at the quotes from that preterist I mentioned earlier:

Eusebius (325) "But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. " (History of the Church 3:5:3)
Had been "commanded by a revelation"? That doesn't strike me as an account of men musing over the Olivet Discourse, and where in the Olivet Discourse did Jesus mention Pella?

"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis (de Mens. et Pond., 15).
While consistent with the prior account, being "warned beforehand by an angel" doesn't seem to suggest it was the result of men musing over the Olivet Discourse either. It works for me either way, and including dual fulfillment, since the traditional historicist view allows that things would shortly begin to come to pass in the first century. It also still allows that the Christians may have fled because of the Olivet Discourse, but even if they had taken that as a clue that certainly doesn't necessarily support the preterist presumption that fulfilled the prophecy of the abomination of desolation. Indeed the Christian community in Jerusalem was alive and well in 639 when Islam took over. Even considering dual fulfillment works fine with historicism. Also some ECFs recognized that the end of the world could not come until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled in Jerusalem.

Irenaeus "John and Daniel have predicted the dissolution and desolation of the Roman Empire, which shall precede the end of the world and the eternal Kingdom of Christ. The Gnostics are refuted, those tools of Satan, who invent another Father different from the Creator."
In spite of the inverted pyramids of pile-on presumption, I would suggest there is no more vindication for preterism in Christians fleeing Jerusalem, than the restoration of Jews to their land was to futurism.

Following is the blasphemous inscription written in Mosaic on the Dome of the Rock, that stands on the temple mount as God's prophetic symbol for Islam, and its desolation of Jerusalem and role as the end-time foe of God's people:

"O you People of the Book, overstep not bounds in your religion, and of God speak only the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and his Word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from him. Believe therefore in God and his apostles, and say not Three. It will be better for you. God is only one God. Far be it from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."

Just more blasphemy from the Islamic beast. Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

The founding of the Dome of the Rock in 688 date-pinned through John's 1260 days as well as his 42 months:
Isaac Newton - "She is nourished by the merchants of the earth, three times or years and an half, or 42 months, or 1260 days: and in these Prophecies days are put for years."
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...and-Revelation

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Could you quote some talmud about Jesus?
Thanks.
Those references that folks like Nazis desire in their heart of hearts were there? It may not be so clear cut as Gentile detractors of Jews wish to believe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud
Interesting you should mention that, since Jews do not consider it an inspired text. Generally I find that folks that lump all Jews together, are not acquainted with any faithful Jews who may remain sovereignly blinded to the Gospel, and whose lives revolve around worship of our God YHWH through our Old Testament scriptures, along with their faith based communities. Maybe it wouldn't hurt for you to review this verse again in the light of this subject:

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

That should give us some sort of a clue as to how a faithful Jew would react to the few gems that some preterists would copy and paste for us from David Duke's website. But what happens when Gentile Christians whose Roman Catholic styled punitive supersessionism - that prohibits them from being able to draw any distinction whatsoever between a faithful Jew for example or an atheist movie producing Jew (or banker and such as preterists tend to chose to judge all Jews by) - causes them to decide to go mucking about in the Talmud in efforts to point the finger at and condemn Jews as a group with their selections?

Please read the following account by and about a Gentile Christian named Ted Pike (who in all seriousness I don't believe you would have any difficulty approving his ministry) who played fast and loose with the Talmud. See if you think what he describes is the enemy at work as he suggests, or perhaps something more akin to walking out from under the umbrella of God's protection.
I will warn you that the article may leave a person disquieted, and it is not healthy Christian reading and could possibly even cause some folks harm, so it might be better if folks don't read the whole thing.
http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/t...iedmartyr.html


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Its been well posted before you arrived that preterism in not anti-semitic, but is neither pro semetic but is rather pro human race. The seed of God and blessing through is to all peoples as was affirmed to Eve, reaffirmed to abraham of blessing to all nations languages, races through his seed (singular) who is chist and Shiloh, and messiah and Abtahams seed ( spiritually speakung through the foretype of Isaac through the miraculous birth.).

Rom 11:32; Gal 3:22.

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Or its possible that this is the process needed to go through to arrive where we are and when we are.
I would say yes. While I don't claim to have a franchise on truth, I am however comfortable conforming with 2,000 years of declared universal Christian core doctrine. Also comfortable approaching all bible prophecy uniformly through the historicist approach, thorough which all Jews and Christians understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled, and as those great men of God that forged the reformation and the church, up until a couple hundred years ago, understood New Testament prophecy was being fulfilled. Their having cast aside the dead formalism of Roman Catholicism, that preterism is still associated with - regarding perhaps the most unfortunate aspect.
http://christianeschatology.com/supe...upersessionism

As far as arriving where and when we are I believe it has all been and will continue to be in God's hands, and we have been nearly 2,000 years in the process of getting here - while steadily fulfilling prophecy - that was prophesied as convincingly as we all understand Daniel's kingdom beasts were fulfilled, when one is open to giving it a chance, through the same approach to prophecy. That prophecy is fulfilled steadily, throughout the era about which is prophesied, like Daniel's beasts.
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...ook-Revelation
I believe that as much as I believe Muhammad is THE false prophet, and his Islamic kingdom beast, the prophesied final foe of God's people. Is that really that hard to imagine when 1/4 of mankind is commanded to conquer and subjugate the other 3/4 of mankind specifically to deny the Son of God and reject His shed blood as articles of faith in Muhammad?
No Jew is commanded by their/our Old Testament scriptures to do the same. Indeed Old Testament prophets laid down swords, or suggestion of the use of the sword in God's service, about 1500 years before Muhammad was ever born.
I also believe the present state of the "church" was prophesied (not applicable to the ecclesia remnant):
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...way-first-quot

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I guess you would have to believe that was fulfilled within the two or so years after it was penned. But doesn't it make you ponder it just a teensy bit, in light of the tens of millions of dollars netted in the "Left Behind" series alone?
In any event when I read that verse I'm not surprised when I consider that the 19th century brought us (partial list):

Mary Baker Eddy - Christian Science
Joseph Smith - LDS Mormon
Charles Taze Russell - Jehovah's Witness
William Miller - Millerites associated into SDA
Ellen White - SDA Seventh Day Adventists
Edward Irving - Irvingites
United and Oneness Pentecostal Church - several individuals 19th & 20th century
John Nelson Darby - dispensationalism futurism - Darby from Irving via C.I. Scofield
Dr. John Thomas - Christadelphians
Georg W. F. Hegel - Idealism school of eschatology (adopted by Karl Marx)
Madame Blavatsky - Theosophical Society - satanist acquaintence of Westcott and Hort
Westcott and Hort - These two men penned a minority Greek text that is the basis of the majority of modern bible versions.
Pope Pius IX - 1854 dogma of the "immaculate conception" (to add to the prior 1700 year steady accumulation of false dogma)

And so......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM

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As so many Pollyannas looking through rose colored glasses here in the west, some preterists accuse "doom and gloom" of our futurist brethren, for recognizing that the scriptures call of a "Day of the Lord" which may mean a day of judgment and divine justice against all mankind.

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Its a good question. I have some responses in other forums on this topic. Perhaps I'll condense them, later.
The futurw is I believe what we want it to be and believe it be as based on his statutes and revealed truths, will, way and purposes; and how we respond to and operate within those elements. Yhe contined correction of gloom and doom mentality .....

A more proper term would be empathy. Those of us that aren't reclined back in Lazy-Boy chairs in the west, still waiting for news of Christian martyrdom to be aired on the CBS news, recognize that 100,000 to 180,000 Christians are martyred around the world every year largely by Muhammadans with some help from communists. Our hearts are sickened even to the point of physical nausea, about the two million that have been killed or displaced by Muhammadans in the Sudan alone. Christians are martyred and churches burned as Islam takes over Nigeria with a thousand Christians killed in one swoop as the new Muslim government took over the Ivory Coast. Same is going on in Indonesia, Malaysia as well as around the rest of the world. With over 20,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11. With the western nations continuing to heal the Islamic beast, and its murder and persecution of Christians Jews and other non-Muslims on the increase, all financed by wealth transfer in oil purchase. 52 countries ban or restrict bibles Christian materials and freedoms, while the U.S. bows to China's persecution and censorship, in order to play in their Olympic games.

We can see that today, besides the tiny little strip of land of Israel, virtually 100% of the rest of John's "whole world" has already been subjugated to denying the Son of God and rejecting His shed blood, as articles of their faith in Muhammad. Is already marked by the name of the beast - Islam. Everywhere the scourge of Muhammadanism has any power, we find the murder, mayhem and misery inspired by the spirit of antichrist. All while we witness the church continuing to die in "post-Christian" Europe as churches are converted into mosques by the thousand, during this prophesied apostasy.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/27...s-into-mosques

With the continuing insistence on abject blindness of the 20th century preterist and futurist church, still leaving those poor deluded followers of Muhammad hanging out to dry, there is little reason to expect that on average the insular church will continue to do other than continue to apostatize as prophesied. While California protestant churches loan themselves out for Islamic services the Pope and Vatican Council proclaim that "the Moslems" "submit" to God's "inscrutable decrees", even though they prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day while praying in the "vain repetitions of the heathen" in the names of the Arabian pagan's deity "Allah" and his "messenger" Muhammad.

Will the whole world be subjugated to denying the Son of God and rejecting His shed blood? If things were to continue at present rates, it would seem before too long indeed, since even Sweden is scheduled to be ruled by a Muhammadan majority under Sharia law within two generations. From some reports Iran already has the nuke, whose leader is committed to to creating and maximizing the greatest period of chaos, murder and mayhem in world history, as he believes is required to prepare the way for the arrival of his awaited "Mahdi" or twelfth Imam. Not long after the U.S. cuts and runs from Afghanistan expect the Taliban to be in control of Pakistani nukes. All of these Muslim states focused more than anything, on hatred of Jews, as bequeathed to them by the false prophet:

Sahih Muslim B41, #6981 Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him.

Perhaps at the pleasure of some in this forum section.
No, not from doom and gloom, but from empathy we ask - where is the punishment and where is the divine justice against the Muhammadan persecutors of Christians? This Second Jihad in the image of the First Islamic Jihad conquest of nearly the whole known world. Where is the justice against those who snuffed out the Gospel throughout John's "whole world" while slaughtering God's people in the process. The suffering Thessalonians asked the same before us. Paul told them to rest with him, and comforted them by reminding them that when the Lord returns all persecutors living and dead, will get their just desserts during the last giant house cleaning - when divine justice will indeed be done. No more looking upon the horror as this world must appear to our sinless Messiah from His/our kingdom.

The Lord gave the Canaanites 400 years to repent, and finally rather than have them poison His people by causing them fall into the Canaanites ritualistic prostitution, bestiality, and sacrifice of children to idols, He arranged for a great big house cleaning. The Lord has given the world 2,000 years to repent during this Christian era. During that time the largest Coptic church in the world was converted and now sports minarets, in a country that is 100% Islamic. Muhammad's followers OWN John's "whole world" today. As the rest of the world entertains itself with distractions of the things of this world, including a Romanesque fascination with sports, as Christians are murdered all around the world with barely anyone noticing - even hardly Christians because they believe that "great tribulation" was all over and done with in the first century, or is yet to come during some future someday.

The kingdoms of this world have been Satan's legal possession ever since Adam's fall. Every time a Christian helps bring someone into the kingdom of Jesus Christ, we are plundering Satan's domain. The kingdom of Jesus Christ is not of this world. So not surprisingly the world keeps continuing to head in just the direction that we might expect fallen mankind to take it.

So is the Lord going to wait until the whole world is subjugated to denying the Son of God and rejecting His shed blood, the way John's "whole world" does today, and the rest of the whopping 1.5 billion followers of the false prophet Muhammad must, as articles of their faith in him? I don't believe He will allow that any more than He allowed the Canaanites to poison His people. Because your head is stuck in the sands of the first century desert as an ostrich to history, what you perceive as "doom and gloom", for some is a prayerful request that our Lord hasten His return before even more poor souls are claimed by the false prophet Muhammad, and more murder mayhem and misery are perpetrated by his followers. It is a request for divine justice, in the form of a massive sweeping house cleaning, as was arranged for the Canaanites.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

"How long, O Lord" indeed. With 100,000 to 180,000 Christians martyred around the world every year.

As C.S. Lewis put it: "God is going to invade this earth in force. But what's the good of saying you're on his side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting away like a dream and something else, something it never entered your head to conceive comes crashing in. Something so beautiful to us and so terrible to others that none of us will have any choice left. This time it will be God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistible love, or irresistible horror into every creature. It will be too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie down, when it's become impossible to stand up. That will not be the time for choosing; it will be the time when we discover which side we really have chosen, whether we realize it or not. Now, today, in this moment, is our chance to choose the right side. God is holding back to give us that chance. It will not last forever; we must take it or leave it."

We stand on the verge of the greatest tragedy in the history of mankind. One quarter of mankind in the world today must deny the Son of God and reject His shed blood as articles of their faith in Muhammad. A situation that should have the church so alarmed we are heavily mobilized around the clock to help them overcome it. Particularly those of us that still enjoy the freedom to be able to do so, unlike those in Islamic countries who get imprisoned or beheaded, for being honest about Muhammad or simply for being born again into a new life in Christ Jesus. Meanwhile, what's the so-called "church" been doing to try to help those poor deluded souls overcome THE false prophet Muhammad? In comparison to the volume of folks that proclaim themselves to be Christian - doodly squat.
"Oh gee, "the great tribulation" was all over in the first century! Didn't you know that? Oh no, I disagree, "the great tribulation" still hasn't happened yet!"
This with perhaps a hundred million casualties of war in the last century alone.
Even more horrifying to contemplate than the doctrine induced blindness, could Islam be God's punishment on a slumbering and increasingly apostate church, by rewarding it with strong delusion, for allowing the Berean spirit to yield to a loss of a love of truth?
A slumbering church awoke from the dead formalism of Roman Catholicism through the Reformation, when a spark ignited Christianity, and it flourished. Reformers were willing to sacrifice their lives for the truth by whole village fulls. Even walked voluntarily into the flames. What is the church doing to even seek out the truth? Teaching, being taught, and teaching again, the counter-reformation Roman Jesuit inspired inventions of futurism and preterism.

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....... needs to be accimpanied by realization of how and why those misinterpretations came about.

I believe it is/will be important to concisely Identify those truths; purposes and way in a sort of abundant and resposible life doctinal statement from a preterist/ fulfilled; Jesus revealed and confirmed; kingdom established view. I have been working on that as well as have others and well as them being found in history past of differing opinions.

It us pissible that the ea rth, society and its people may go through or is going through a time of reaping the fruits of some of the false doctrines and interpretations that have been sown into it, especially dispensationalism and end times mania; evolution; Rom 13; Rom 11; and the futurist end of the world scheme.

not much time for more now.

A person doesn't have to be a John Darby styled dispensationalish/futurist to recognize end time prophecy suggest the end of the world. Or as preterists suggest has already happened! Through the traditional historicist view of prophecy, through which all Jews and Christians understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled, and up until a couple of centuries ago the church understood New Testament prophecy was being fulfilled, Christians throughout this Christian era have recognized the prophesies of a day of final judgment and God's justice on the world.

The above includes just more matter of fact reality that preterists refuse to face, like the six million Jews that rule Israel, as the focus of the whole world today. Or the imminent failure of the global economy, resulting from the ever less effective influx, of even more phony money. Some folks in this forum section so focused denigrating Jews they can't even see Islam.

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General Discussion / Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« on: January 15, 2013, 04:44:14 AM »
You put your faith in Muhammad alone. You put your trust in Muhammad alone. You follow the words of Muhammad alone. You follow Muhammad because Muhammad told his followers to follow him - or get their heads cut off as renegades and apostates.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2656.0
This even as we can see in the prior posts how he is revealed through your own books, and so far I have gone easy on you.

So then since Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel, do you follow Muhammad alone because of the rich history of Mecca? It can't be that because there is no evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.0

Is it the extensive archaeological record of Mecca? Can't be that because there is no archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before pagan immigrants from Yemen settled the area in about the 4th century AD.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1132.0

Is it the geographical location of Mecca? It can't be that because Mecca is located across 1200 kilometers of harsh desert from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs. Abraham's travels never took him to within 1,000 kilometers of Mecca, and there was no overland route along the Red Sea in Arabia until most of a millennium after Abraham walked the earth.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=3416.0

Is it the ancient kaaba? Can't hardly be that since Mecca never existed, let alone that the Quraish pagan's kaaba was built in the early 5th century for Arabian Star Family worship, about 666 nautical miles from where the one true God of the scriptures, had His people build His temple.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/#temple

So you believe in the words of Muhammad alone, even though all of the available evidence suggests, it is an anti-a-specific-religion cult that follows the stand-alone words of a single 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling murderous imperialistic conqueror. Islam is antichrist.

You follow Muhammad even though 1/4 of the bible is prophecy, with much of it fulfilled, including the whole subject of the Gospel that was prophesied in the scriptures so many hundreds of years before that event:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm

You follow Muhammad alone, even though the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind through all of His prophets and witnesses, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years, is ever increasingly supported by history, archaeology, geography and even mathematically.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?board=68.0
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm

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