Author Topic: Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie...  (Read 2637 times)

Peter

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A Muslim wrote: "Our Prophet once said "the Muslims do not lie", on the other hand YOUR BOOK prompts you to lie If through my lies Gods truth abounds to His glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? (Romans 3:7)"

This has been presented to me on more than a couple of occasions. Indeed one of the more entertaining proof-texted backfires.
First their famous Greek sophist styled entertainer Ahmed Deedat is a perfect example of a Muslim liar. http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=268.0
And of course "taqiyyah", or dissimulation, is widely practiced throughout Islam.
The very same Epistle that Deedat taught confirmed Mohammed, we find that God Himself made Deedat a liar for not believing in the record that He gave us of His Son:

1Jo 5:10  He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

Regarding Romans 3:7, we learn from the very next verse what the proof-texted verse from Romans is all about:

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Ironically the Muslims who suggest that this verse represents the opposite of what it does, actually become the "slanderous reporters" about which Paul writes!
Verse 7 ends with an acknowledgment that one who lies in God's service is a sinner, that will meet the end detailed in verse 8.
Interestingly though, taqiyyah, or lying in the way of Allah is a perfectly acceptable Muslim thing to do. Particularly lying to preserve one's own skin by denying that a Muslim is a Muslim if it will accomplish that.
Obviously a very different matter for Christians:

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Not denying Jesus Christ has cost millions of martyrs their lives.
Ironically, the person who presented the out of context verse actually made themself just another "slanderous reporter"!
And of course, the conclusion of verse 8 makes clear the end, of doing evil "that good may come", is. A just damnation.

More context:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=3&v=7&t=KJV#7

As an aside, the same Muslim quoted at the beginning of this thread wrote:

"Pete, you don't know how happy I am to know your opinion about those who misconstrues God's words and I hope that one day you will stop being one of them.
As for (Romans 3:7), well, SURPRISE. I quoted it from a CHRISTIAN website criticizing Paul for being a LIAR. (jdstone. org)
And regarding this (slanderous) thing, just look who's talking. I can not find a more accurate word to describe your videos."

So I thought I would visit the website that the Muslim cited and found from the alleged "CHRISTIAN website" jdstone.org:

From jdstone:

"Do not fall into the subtle trap set by Christian clergy or missionaries when they want to discuss Jesus (god incarnate/Invisible Man in the Sky). They love to start questioning you right off with; Do you know Jesus? For you to answer this ridiculous question requires that you accept their premise ? that Jesus actually lived. REJECT that premise right at the start, for it is false!"

Isn't that ironic? While the Muslim leveled accusations of lying he supported it all with a blasphemous atheist site, while calling it a Christian site. But then they often cite communists and atheists, like George Bernard Shaw and other spiritless people, who lauded Islam.

Peter

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Re: Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie...
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2010, 07:18:21 AM »
Here's an example from Dazednconfused

[[[[[>>> " WHOSE COMING IS AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN with all power and signs and lying wonders "


Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded THROUGH MY LIE unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?


I agree " SATAN with all power and signs and LYING WONDERS " through

SAINT PAUL, FOUNDER OF CHRISTIANITY]]]]]]

You had but to visit the forum category "Islam in and on Scripture" for the answer to this and much more nonsense that Mohammedans present.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=33.0

Regarding Romans 3:7, we learn from the very next verse what the proof-texted verse that Muslims foolishly abuse to their own demise from Romans is all about:

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Ironically the Muslims who suggest that this verse represents the opposite of what it does, actually become the "slanderous reporters" about which Paul writes!
The reason blaspheming FALSE ACCUSERS like Dazednconfused lie like they do about this verse, and Dazed even being PROUD about his having done so, and even BOAST about his foolish error, is made clear

2Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, BOASTERS, PROUD, BLASPHEMERS, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, FALSE ACCUSERS, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, ...

Verse 7 ends with an acknowledgment that one who lies in God's service is a sinner, that will meet the end detailed in verse 8.
Interestingly though, taqiyyah, or lying in the way of Allah is a perfectly acceptable Muslim thing to do. Particularly lying to preserve one's own skin by denying that a Muslim is a Muslim if it will accomplish that.
Obviously a very different matter for Christians:"


Perhaps the reason blasphemers like Dazed hate and demonize Paul so much (besides, of course, the fact that they are filled with the spirit of antichrist) is that Paul so thoroughly convicts us of our sins, and they know that if Mulsims maintain their course, they will die to sin.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

[[[[[[CONNED 2 Billion Christians to

BLISSFULLY commit BLASPHEMY

Against The ONE TRUE GOD !


END : FIRST SEMESTER Special Lesson for brotherjw :]]]]]

Thanks for the illustrative lesson Dazed. I will copy and paste this exchange in reply to that thread. If you want to discuss this or any other Muslim opposite understandings of scripture, please join me there.

[[[[P/s. Read your response for part of Part 02.

I volunteered to give you Bible Lessons NOT ENGLISH LESSONS !

mightymouse

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Re: Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie...
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2010, 03:45:07 PM »
This is a complete misunderstanding of the text. One must look at the parenthesis portion of verse 5 where Paul says (I speak as a man). He is showing the nature of the carnal man to justify even such things as sinning so that God can be glorified in His ability to even use mans sins to show the glory and power of His grace. This is of course an absurd notion that Paul is exposing in order to to show the actual case: that none are righteous and that it is only through God's mercy and grace that anyone can be made acceptable to God. Paul is in no way saying that Christians can reveal God's glory by lying. And of course in Ephesians 1:6-7 Paul reveals the ultimate solution (He made us acceptable IN THE BELOVED-Jesus) and how? "In Him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" (vv7)
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Peter

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Re: Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie...
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 03:51:43 PM »
This is a complete misunderstanding of the text. One must look at the parenthesis portion of verse 5 where Paul says (I speak as a man). He is showing the nature of the carnal man to justify even such things as sinning so that God can be glorified in His ability to even use mans sins to show the glory and power of His grace. This is of course an absurd notion that Paul is exposing in order to to show the actual case: that none are righteous and that it is only through God's mercy and grace that anyone can be made acceptable to God. Paul is in no way saying that Christians can reveal God's glory by lying. And of course in Ephesians 1:6-7 Paul reveals the ultimate solution (He made us acceptable IN THE BELOVED-Jesus) and how? "In Him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" (vv7)

Isn't it ironic that they proof text verse 7 to call Paul a liar, but if Deedat's scripture-ignorant minions read the very next verse, they would discover that they are the very ones guilty of the slanderous reporting described!

Let alone the fact that lying in the way of Allah is perfectly acceptable if it protects oneself or if it is necessary to advance the cause of Allah.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=952.0

mightymouse

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Re: Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie...
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2010, 03:57:14 PM »
This is nothing more than the methodology used also by those who opposed Paul during his day. They were unable to understand his enlightened mind because they relied only upon their training and he had been with Christ to receive the revelations he brought to us through the epistles he wrote. He was not defending himself or his arguments. A man with experience is never at the mercy of those with just an argument. He had met the living God on the road to Damascus and worked from the premise of having once been blind (previously in the camp of those who now stood against him) but now seeing very clearly.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.