Author Topic: SO, WHO THEN CREATED THE QUR’AN?!!  (Read 533 times)

Gentle Giant

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« on: April 06, 2017, 09:03:36 AM »
Historical Research on Islam and the Earliest Qur'anic Manuscripts
The newest Historical material we now have on the dating of the earliest Qur'anic Manuscripts (Mushafs) is breaking new historical ground. These findings have an impact on not only the authenticity of the earliest Qur'ans, but also on who Muhammad was, as well as the whole scope concerning how Islam emerged. This new material has just come to light in the last two years (2012 - 2014) and is proving to be a real 'game changer' for those of us engaging publicly with Islam, especially within the academic environment, where the significance of these findings will have the greatest impact.

 Concolusions of this new research is summarised as follows :-
“Islam, as we know it, did not exist in the 7th century, but evolved over a period of 200-300 years” (Humphreys 1991:71,83-89)
“The Qur’an probably was not revealed to one man in 22 years, but likely evolved over a period of 50-100 years” (Rippin 1985:155;1990:3,25,60; Lester 99:44-45; Wansbrough 1977:160-163) 
The history of Islam, at least from the time of the caliph Abd al-Malik (685-705 AD) and before, is a later fabrication (Cook 1983:65, Robinson 1996:47)

These are extremely direct and damaging conclusions by the respective scholars, and no doubt our Muslim friends will reject this however the evidence is there and one must then consider the Islamic scholars research and add their comments into the mix to balance the argument. Yet when we do this it is more damaging to Islam and suddenly our Muslim friends are silenced with no answer.
Before we look at the new evidence four questions need to be asked!
Is the Qur'an eternal? (see Sura 85:22, which says so)
Was it written down complete by Uthman in 650 AD, and were four copies sent to Medina, Basra, Baghdad and Damascus by him (al Bukhari says so in      Vol.6:509-510)?
Has the Qur’an changed since 650 AD (i.e. the 1989 Ibn Fahd canon)?
Do they have complete Manuscripts from the time of Uthman to prove it was complete, and that it has never changed in 1400 years (i.e. the Topkapi/Sammarkand)?

Our Muslim friends will answer yes to all these questions, yet the evidence of the quranic manuscripts say something else. Two Islamic scholars (Tayyar Altıkulaç and Prof. Dr. Ekmeleddin) have been studding the six major Quranic manuscripts over a five year period (2002 -2007) and there published works have now been translated into English (2014) and the results are somewhat damaging to Islamic.   

TOPKAPI MUSHAF (Topkapi Museum, Istanbul, Turkey) (Early – Mid 8th c.)
Prof. Dr. Ekmeleddin İhsanoğlu: (Founding Director General of IRCICA (1980-2004) & Secretary General of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference Research Centre)   
‘We have none of Uthman’s Mushafs’ (manuscripts)   
‘Nor do we have any of the copies from those Mushafs’   
‘These Mushafs date from the later ‘Umayyad period’

Dr. Tayyar Altıkulaç: (Leading scholar in Qur’anic studies, Ex-president of Turkish religious affairs, deputy in the Turkish parliament)   
‘No serious scholarly work has been done on them’   
‘These Mushafs date from the early – mid 8th cent.’   
‘They are not Uthmanic, nor copies sent by him’   
‘The Topkapi has 2,270 consonantal differences’   
22% of the Qur’an is missing

Dr. Tayyar Altıkulaç: ‘It is not Uthmanic, as it dates from mid 8th c.’;
Undisciplined spelling   
Different writing styles   
Scribal mistakes   
Copyist mistakes   
Written by someone with little experience   
With later additions (only goes to Sura 43)   that is 66% of the Qur’an is missing
The AL HUSSEINI CAIRO MANUSCRIPT [Located: ‘al-Mashhad al-Husayni’ – Cairo, Egypt] 
Dr. Tayyar Altıkulaç:   
‘This is not Uthmanic’   
’It is dated from early to mid 8th century’   
The PARIS PETROPOLITANUS – (Early 8th c.)   
Francois Deroche (Deroche 2009:172-177):     
Corrections to the text   
Disagrees with the Caireen Mushaf in 93 places   
“Five different copyists”     
“Later modified with erasures and additions”   
74% of the Qur’an is missing

The MA’IL MANUSCRIPT (2165 MS, British Library) (Late 8th Century [790 AD]) 
Written in an early Hijazi Script, Dated to the late 8th c.
Only goes up to Sura 43, thus it is not complete 
25% of the Qur’an is missing

The SANA’A MANUSCRIPT (Located in Sana’a, Yemen; Late 7th – Early 8th Century) 
Dr. Gerd Puin (1981-Present):   
“Oldest parchments & papers of any Qur’anic Manuscript.” 
Yet, more than half of the text is ambiguous letters which need diacritical marks for understanding.
Adding vowels helped correct mistakes.
It includes orthographical changes found in geographical tradition schools.   
Many deviations are not mentioned in later literature. 

SANA’A PALIMPSESTS (writing under the text):
Using Ultra-Violet light, we find a ‘Qur’anic’ script written and washed below that of the existing script (‘Script Defecto’). This is the first evidence we have of an evolution in the Qur’anic text in one manuscript.
Western Scholars (Deroche, Böwering, Conrad, Peters, Stein, Shoemaker, etc…) conclude that the earliest Mushaf’s begin to appear in the 8th c.
Muslim Scholars (Prof. Dr. Ekmeleddin İhsanoğlu & Dr. Tayyar Altıkulaç) conclude that the earliest Mushaf’s begin to appear in the 8th c.
‘Islamic Awareness’ (IA) concludes there are no Uthmanic Mushafs, and that all the early Mushafs date from the 8th c., or later

The Qur'an is NOT ETERNAL! (Despite Sura 85:22)
It was NOT COMPLETE in 650 AD (despite al Bukhari Vol. 6:509510)
The Qur’an HAS CHANGED since 650 AD (despite the 1984 Ibn Fahd canon)
Thus, Muhammad had little to do with the Qur’an!   

If at all any of our Muslim friends do respond to this, take note they will change the topic and point to the Bible and miss the point been made. As a Christian we do not claim the bible is Eternal, without error or complete. Yet Islam make these claims about the Quran, we have simple accepted the Islamic tradition and chains of narration, while access was denied to the source material as noted above.

Thus one must keep in mind one error, one contradiction, one change or one word missing by Quranic standards proves Islam to be false.
Thus it is extremely important for the Christian community to be ready to handle the influx of Muslim into the Christian culture in the coming years, in an honest understanding of their background, needs and proper discipleship into the Kingdom.


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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2017, 10:01:58 AM »
Hello brother, and welcome to the forum! :)

In answer to this thread question, there can be no doubt that Muhammad is the author of the Quran, through Satan both directly (through demonic inspiration) as well as indirectly (through Muhammad's own self-serving greed and lust), are the authors of the Quran.

An even bigger question that is raised, is whether Muhammad even ever existed, as explored in this video that was banned after being shown on English TV one time.
"Islam - The Untold Story" - Tom Holland (banned in the UK)
At the bottom of the post at this link:

From a Judeo/Christian perspective there can be no doubt that Satan authored the Quran, since Muhmmad denied the whole subject of the Gospel - indeed not a stretch to suggest the whole bible:

Islam is antichrist, which makes each and every one of Muhammad's 1.5 billion followers an antichrist:

Those poor souls follow Muhammad by prostrate toward a pagan idol, in spite of the fact that there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests, that Mecca ever existed prior to the 4th century AD when migrants from Yemen initially settled the area and built their Kaaba in the 6th century for pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship:

If you haven't already, I highly recommend you available yourself of the free resources on Dr. Rafat Amari's website regarding the history of Arabia, Islam and Muhammad. Links to his papers in the left sidebar.

Once again, welcome to the forum! I should probably move this thread to the more specific category on the Quran and Hadith where there are additional related threads. The title and topic will remain on this thread as "moved" to guide folks to it.

Gentle Giant

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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2017, 11:07:50 AM »
Thanks Peter.
I have been looking for the Tom Holland clip.
Will look at the other resources as well.

question why no response is this post in the right section?



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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2017, 09:41:51 AM »
Thanks Peter.
I have been looking for the Tom Holland clip.
Will look at the other resources as well.

question why no response is this post in the right section?


I will answer as if your reply was meant to include a colon after "question" and comma or semicolon after "response".
The section on the Quran seems a little more appropriate, and if I move the thread, then the title will still remain in this section, with a link to the Quran section. The thread will also be represented in two categories instead of one. I'll move it so you can see what I mean. If you want it to stay in the history of Islam section, I'll move it back.

Regarding the lack of response, as the years have gone by thousands of posts have been posted in the forum and the search function does a good job of finding topics and making prior conversations available, so they don't need to be discussed all over again.
Secondly, we request that folks engage in an exchange, and reply to responses to the threads, posts and replies they post. No shortage of - particularly Muslims - cruise the Internet with copy and paste articles they have no ability or intention to defend. If we didn't request that they defend and support what they post in here, this forum would be nothing but spam from top to bottom, in their efforts to drown out and obscure substantive, conversational, threads.