Author Topic: CLASSICAL WRITERS SHOW MECCA COULD NOT HAVE BEEN BUILT BEFORE THE 4th CENTURY AD  (Read 33233 times)

Peter

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This is my Introduction, i will do what I should have done in the first place, expose DR, Rafats Fruadulent statements based on his conclusions as a disbeliever (yeas he is Mushrihk, a person that ascribes partners to ALLAH and a KAAFIR a rejector of faith)

Are you even capable of penning a post that doesn't contain a false accusation? Perhaps not, because you follow the father of lies, through his prophet Mohammed.
By "rejector of faith" you of course really mean he rejects Mohammed and his phony god "Allah".
This because Dr. Amari's faith is in the one true God that revealed Himself through the Scriptures over 1600 years, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years, and so therefore he must reject the 7th century false prophet Mohammed and his STAND-ALONE 23 year record, that exposes him as an illiterate, pillaging, plundering, murdering, child doing, prisoner raping, stepson's only wife stealing, sex slave prostituting, concubine fornicating, lying, cheating, blood drenched, imperialistic, conquering, terrorist, thief. A man, and book that are THE EXACT OPPOSITE of Jesus Christ and the New Testament."
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=148.0

If you take issue with a single characterization, please respond at the appropriate link, BUT AFTER you have finished bringing the pre-Christian era historical and archaeological record of Mecca to us.

Peter

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I will answer all your questions listed below but first I will show you why I disagree as you are averse to hindu writings but not Pagan Greek and Roman writing (Is it becuase you only believe fair skin people?)

Quote
Now you try to prove heathen scripture with heathen scripture.
But all I see is a bunch of Deedat style deception and false presumption by DR. Z. HAQ, with a single reference to another source, a 1935 Dr. Pran Nath, that HAQ feebly attempted to splice into the article, that didn't support his article any more than it provided any kind of evidence.
Gee, I wonder if DR. Z. HAQ is a Hindu? Whoops, what do you know. He's a Muslim who does the same thing with scripture that you failed to do. Isn't that a surprise?

Where are the Hindu scholar's confirmation regarding Mohammed in their books?

Where is the historical evidence?
Where is the archaeological evidence?
Where is the geographical evidence?
You have to start at the beginning - with the foundation.
How can you place Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael in Mecca?
Failure to be able to do this relegates Mohammed's whole STAND-ALONE 7th century invention to the trash heap.
It won't do you any good to turn to scripture, Hunduism or the Wiccans to save Islam, if you can't provide an answer to that question.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.0

The ka'aba is the evidence, why would so many rebuild something that according to you is not a genuine house of worship?

We'll start with your first premise.
Where is the evidence that the Ka'aba was ever REbuilt?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1130.0
http://prophetofdoom.net/article.aspx?g=402&i=4204011

AnnaMuslim

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Quote
When comparing the historical claims of the Qur'an, with those of the Bible, we find that the Biblical claims are true and historically accurate.  I cannot find a single critic in history who argued about the existence of Jerusalem.  Records concerning Jerusalem and its monotheistic faith have come from each generation since the time the Israelites entered into the Promised Land, in the 15th century B.C. Records from Mesopotamia and Egypt all contain important entries about Jerusalem. We find in Hebrew literature complete records about the kings who reigned in the city of Jerusalem. Much literature attested to by internal and external records tells about the monotheistic worship by the Jews in the temple of Jerusalem.

    These facts should convince our Muslim friends to return to the historical legacy of a monotheistic worship as proclaimed in the Bible and known through documented history - and not to give heed to claims which create a worship without any historical foundation housed in a pagan temple built in the 5th century A.D.

Muslims accept all the monotheistic worship and we follow it closer than any Jew or Chriistian, we do not reject any of the Prophets that Came before, we do reject the lies individuals tell about them!!!!

Another one of DR RAFAT'S lies, ~If he knows Islam at all he would know this simple piece of information but his intention is to misguide!!!
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 09:12:16 AM by Peter »

Peter

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Quote
When comparing the historical claims of the Qur'an, with those of the Bible, we find that the Biblical claims are true and historically accurate.  I cannot find a single critic in history who argued about the existence of Jerusalem.  Records concerning Jerusalem and its monotheistic faith have come from each generation since the time the Israelites entered into the Promised Land, in the 15th century B.C. Records from Mesopotamia and Egypt all contain important entries about Jerusalem. We find in Hebrew literature complete records about the kings who reigned in the city of Jerusalem. Much literature attested to by internal and external records tells about the monotheistic worship by the Jews in the temple of Jerusalem.

    These facts should convince our Muslim friends to return to the historical legacy of a monotheistic worship as proclaimed in the Bible and known through documented history - and not to give heed to claims which create a worship without any historical foundation housed in a pagan temple built in the 5th century A.D.

Muslims accept all the monotheistic worship and we follow it closer than any Jew or Chriistian, we do not reject any of the Prophets that Came before, we do reject the lies individuals tell about them!!!!

Not a lie at all but an absolute truth. You ignored the context. Look again
".....  monotheistic worship as proclaimed in the Bible and known through documented history ....."

Another one of DR RAFAT'S lies, ~If he knows Islam at all he would know this simple piece of information but his intention is to misguide!!!

So you are the liar regarding Dr. Amari, because you do indeed have to REJECT the prophets as they are revealed through Scripture and history, to follow Mohammed. But that's not all that makes you so.

1John 5:10  He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

Peter

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I will answer all your questions listed below but first I will show you why I disagree as you are averse to hindu writings but not Pagan Greek and Roman writing (Is it becuase you only believe fair skin people?)

Quote
Now you try to prove heathen scripture with heathen scripture.
But all I see is a bunch of Deedat style deception and false presumption by DR. Z. HAQ, with a single reference to another source, a 1935 Dr. Pran Nath, that HAQ feebly attempted to splice into the article, that didn't support his article any more than it provided any kind of evidence.
Gee, I wonder if DR. Z. HAQ is a Hindu? Whoops, what do you know. He's a Muslim who does the same thing with scripture that you failed to do. Isn't that a surprise?

Where are the Hindu scholar's confirmation regarding Mohammed in their books?

Where is the historical evidence?
Where is the archaeological evidence?
Where is the geographical evidence?
You have to start at the beginning - with the foundation.
How can you place Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael in Mecca?
Failure to be able to do this relegates Mohammed's whole STAND-ALONE 7th century invention to the trash heap.
It won't do you any good to turn to scripture, Hunduism or the Wiccans to save Islam, if you can't provide an answer to that question.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.0

The ka'aba is the evidence, why would so many rebuild ........

"All we require is that you engage in a dialog - in an exchange."
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=35.0

Your second non-answer went to spam.
Now try answering the question this time.
Where is the evidence that suggests the Ka'aba was ever REbuilt?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1130.0
http://prophetofdoom.net/article.aspx?g=402&i=4204011

....... something that according to you is not a genuine house of worship?

What's the surprise? Men have built genuine "houses of worship" to worship all sorts of things, throughout history. Like the Arabian Ka'abas for moon god worship.
Does the fact that somebody was willing to build a temple to Buddha mean that we should worship Buddha?
Perhaps that's why God's people ourselves, are God's temple, as revealed through the Scriptures.



Who said the Ka'aba wasn't a genuine house of worship? The Ka'aba was indeed a genuine house of pagan worship of 360 idols that represented among others, the moon, sun, stars, and the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn/demon religion. Even you have to admit to that.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1267.0

Please explain to us how Abraham, Hagar, and as you believe their infant, son Ishmael, traveled the 1200 kilometers across harsh Arabian desert from Israel to Mecca, over 900 years before the first caravan route was ever established (after towns were started and water wells dug) along the Red Sea, to rebuild the Ka'aba.
Did Abraham wait in Mecca until Ishmael was old enough to help him build the Ka'aba?
Did Sarah and Isaac join them there until Ishmael got old enough to help?
How did Ishmael make it from Mecca to Hebron in time for Abraham's funeral?
Hisham suggested they rode back and forth on flying animals like Mohammed's fanciful ride. Is that what you believe?
(I prepared the questions above for you there)
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.msg6524#msg6524

AnnaMuslim

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In the name of ALLAH the most merciful the most beneficent
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2010, 04:43:19 PM »
I SEEK REFUGE FROM SATAN
I BEGIN IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL THE MOST BENEFICENT
I bear witness that there is no God but ALLAH
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of ALLAH
I ask ALLAH to protect us from myself (NAFS/Desires/Motives) and my actions
ALLAH Guides whom HE wills and leaves to go astray whom he wills

Dear Christians (in particular Pete/Peter)

This is how should have entered this discussion forum in the first place, I humbly apologize for my entries you may send them to spam as I spoke from my Hawa (Opinion based on my Nafs).

It is the night of Leilatul Israa wal Mi'raaj (the travel from Masjidul Haraam (MAkkah) to Masjidul Aqsa (In Palestine) and to ALLAH (one of the greatest Miracles that a Prophet ever performed bringing the gift of five times prayer a day) after meeting with Nabi Adam, Nabi EESA and NABI YAHAYA, Nabi Moosa, Nabi Edries, and Nabi EBRAHEEM (alysalaatuwassalaam).

 The lecture I attended by a very learned scholar made me realise that I needed to show you my akhlaak (character as a Muslim) and that I needed to engage with you on a different level as the topics you discuss are side issues and in most cases a distraction from the truth. It is bickering about issues that have no proof.
I say Makkah existed because we have the accounts from the Hadith and Quran and you say the Pagans dont mention it, It is a dead-end for both of us.

I would rather discuss things like belief in One GOD and which of the Prophets of GOD worshipped ALLAH alone
What language was spoken by all the Prophets
What were the Prophetic laws that God sent to the Prophets.

And I would rather educate people like DR Rafat Amari and Ellis Skolfield about the True Islam, The islam of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Yahaya, Jesus and Muhammad (Alaysalaatu wassalaam

You see we can talk about water the properties the existence the flow the origin, precipitation, condensation, rain, the benifits and leave out the Source (ALLAH) that would be a futile discussion as it is ALLAH that has sent us water and ALLAH that suspends the clouds and ALLh that brings the rain. I hope you follow what I mean

NO more Archeological, Greek and ROMAN pagan histories that are lost and incomplete, rewritten with opinions, we can argue points like that till the end of time and not benefit an iota

None of your arguments are convincing, while they may be a plausible theory, the reality is that the Hadith is documented and verified and cross checked and proven itself enough times to be trusted on every level.

So ask a question, a valid one about Islam and lets discuss it AND DO Not I say "now bring proof, Scripture requires belief in the unseen, BELIEF IN THE PROPHETS AND IN GOD ALMIGHTY.

ALL PRAISE IS DUE TO ALLAH
KING OF THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT
THEE ALONE DO I WORSHIP AND YOUR AID ALONE I SEEK
GUIDE ME ON THE STARIGHT PATH
THE PATH OF THOSE WHOM THOU HAST FAVORED
NOT THE PATH OF THOSE THAT INCURE THY WRATH
NOR THOSE THAT HAVE GONE ASTRAY


Peter

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Re: In the name of ALLAH the most merciful the most beneficent
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2010, 05:12:10 PM »
So then your answer is that you can find no historical or archaeological record of Mecca ever existing before the Christian era and so you would rather talk about something else.

I SEEK REFUGE FROM SATAN
I BEGIN IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL THE MOST BENEFICENT
I bear witness that there is no God but ALLAH
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of ALLAH
I ask ALLAH to protect us from myself (NAFS/Desires/Motives) and my actions
ALLAH Guides whom HE wills and leaves to go astray whom he wills

Dear Christians (in particular Pete/Peter)

This is how should have entered this discussion forum in the first place, I humbly apologize for my entries you may send them to spam as I spoke from my Hawa (Opinion based on my Nafs).

It is the night of Leilatul Israa wal Mi'raaj (the travel from Masjidul Haraam (MAkkah) to Masjidul Aqsa (In Palestine) and to ALLAH (one of the greatest Miracles that a Prophet ever performed bringing the gift of five times prayer a day) after meeting with Nabi Adam, Nabi EESA and NABI YAHAYA, Nabi Moosa, Nabi Edries, and Nabi EBRAHEEM (alysalaatuwassalaam).

Do you believe in flying carpets too?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1253.0

Did you know that Mohammed and his cousins were up to their eyeballs in the 2nd century occult cult of the Sabians? And guess what. The Sabians prayed 5 times a day and performed ablution. Quite a coincidence eigh?
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#ablution

Did you know the fabled prophet of the Zoroastrians was supposed to have commuted on a winged camel to the place where his immortal ancestors lived too?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq

The lecture I attended by a very learned scholar made me realise that I needed to show you my akhlaak (character as a Muslim) and that I needed to engage with you on a different level as the topics you discuss are side issues and in most cases a distraction from the truth.

Do you really expect an Imam to encourage you to seek out the truth any more than Mohammed did?
"Allah has hated for you three things: ... 3. And asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters)." (Dr. Khan, Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, #555)

Certainly a far cry from Scripture.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

It is bickering about issues that have no proof.

That is certainly the case regarding Islam. Not even fulfilled prophecy.
While the scriptures that you must reject because you follow Mohammed, are rich with fulfilled prophecy.

I say Makkah existed because we have the accounts from the Hadith and Quran ........

That's the whole point. The Quran and Hadith were penned in the 7th and 8th century. History isn't something someone sits down and decides to write thousands of years after the fact. All Mohammedan history regarding events prior to the "year of the elephant" (around Mohammed's birthday) is invalid, because that's when Mohammedans BEGAN to record their history,
History is that which is recorded by people that lived in or near the times that were written about. Like the historians and geographers cited in the original posts of this thread.

......... and you say the Pagans dont mention it, ........

No, I say the historical and archaeological record doesn't mention Mecca, the way the very same record recorded the other genuinely ancient cities throughout Arabia. That record doesn't mention Mecca, because Mecca did not exist.
Where are the artifacts of Mecca, like over one million artifacts just on display, in Jerusalem?
What you are really saying is that you wish Mohammed had done a more thorough job of destroying all prior actual historical record, so that only the fiction that he and his boys created in the 7th and 8th century was left standing.

........ It is a dead-end for both of us.

I'm sorry my friend but it is a dead end for you. The archaeological evidence continues to confirm the veracity of scripture as a reliable historical record.

Peter

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Re: In the name of ALLAH the most merciful the most beneficent
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2010, 05:40:31 PM »
I would rather discuss things like belief in One GOD and which of the Prophets of GOD worshipped ALLAH alone
What language was spoken by all the Prophets
What were the Prophetic laws that God sent to the Prophets.

But you reject the record that God gave us for Mohammed's false record. If you want to be encouraged down your path to perdition I recommend a Muslim forum where they censor the profound historical truths that are in this forum.
You could only point out how Mohammed contradicted ALL of the prophets as revealed in the scriptures, and that you choose to reject them, to follow his STAND-ALONE 7th century record.
Nor can you engage in discussion as to how your prophet is revealed through your own books.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=336.0
In the Middle East they kill people for engaging in honest discussion about the way Mohammed is portrayed through your books.

And I would rather educate people like DR Rafat Amari and Ellis Skolfield about the True Islam, The islam of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Yahaya, Jesus and Muhammad (Alaysalaatu wassalaam

But if you can't explain how Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael made their way to where Mecca was eventually built, your beliefs are demonstrated to be lies.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.msg6524#msg6524
It is the very ones you mention that have educated YOU in this forum.

You see we can talk about water the properties the existence the flow the origin, precipitation, condensation, rain, the benifits and leave out the Source (ALLAH) that would be a futile discussion as it is ALLAH that has sent us water and ALLAH that suspends the clouds and ALLh that brings the rain. I hope you follow what I mean

NO more Archeological, Greek and ROMAN pagan histories ........

And how would their paganism influence their geographical interests?
Then please bring us the Arabian "evidence" that you falsely accused me of "refuting". How could I have refuted it if I have never seen it?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1079.msg6416#msg6416

........ that are lost and incomplete, rewritten with opinions, we can argue points like that till the end of time and not benefit an iota

What you mean is that Islam is absolutely DEVOID of history except that which was CREATED in the 7th and 8th centuries. Mohammedanism did not exist before Mohammed. The Jews that he loved to slaughter had been worshiping God for 2,000 years before Mohammed invented his STAND-ALONE quasi-religious invention.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1528.0

None of your arguments are convincing, while they may be a plausible theory, the reality is that the Hadith is documented and verified and cross checked and proven itself enough times to be trusted on every level.

Surely you can see what a patently false claim this is. Is there A SINGLE REFERENCE to the actual historical record, anywhere in it? No. All of the "history" it includes before the "year of the elephant" is a purely 7th and 8th century created fiction.

So ask a question, a valid one about Islam ......

I asked a question that could not only not be more valid, but is vital, to Islam. You just didn't want to answer it because there is no truthful answer that does not relegate Islam to the trash heap of history.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.msg6524#msg6524

........ and lets discuss it AND DO Not I say "now bring proof, Scripture requires belief in the unseen, BELIEF IN THE PROPHETS AND IN GOD ALMIGHTY.

ALL PRAISE IS DUE TO ALLAH
KING OF THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT
THEE ALONE DO I WORSHIP AND YOUR AID ALONE I SEEK
GUIDE ME ON THE STARIGHT PATH
THE PATH OF THOSE WHOM THOU HAST FAVORED
NOT THE PATH OF THOSE THAT INCURE THY WRATH
NOR THOSE THAT HAVE GONE ASTRAY

And how do folks incur God's wrath?

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM.

You see? Rather than understanding the serious jeopardy you are in, you will simply pass it off, even though you see it is made clear in scripture.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=611.0

Peter

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So ask a question, a valid one about Islam ......

Why do you think God would nullify His 1600 year record 500 years after that record closed, then reveal the EXACT OPPOSITE of that record, through an unrepentant prisoner rapist?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1482.msg6430#msg6430

........ and lets discuss it AND DO Not I say "now bring proof, Scripture requires belief in the unseen, BELIEF IN THE PROPHETS AND IN GOD ALMIGHTY.

Peter

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Rest of this Bible related conversation moved to the appropriate thread.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=97.msg6685#msg6685

Peter

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In case this point was lost among others.

I say Makkah existed because we have the accounts from the Hadith and Quran ........

Just because you are willing to "say" something doesn't mean it's true. You highlighted the whole point. The Quran and Hadith were penned in the 7th and 8th century. History isn't something someone sits down and decides to write thousands of years after the fact. All Mohammedan history regarding events prior to the "year of the elephant" (around Mohammed's birthday) is invalid, because that's when Mohammedans BEGAN to record their history.
History is that which is recorded by people that lived in or near the times that were written about. Like the historians and geographers cited in the original posts of this thread.