Author Topic: naliakbar on Sonship of Jesus Christ  (Read 2574 times)

Peter

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naliakbar on Sonship of Jesus Christ
« on: August 06, 2010, 02:23:36 AM »
naliakbar quote between [[[[[   ]]]]] and nali as "ME" and Pete as "YOU".
Insisting on a misunderstanding of a single verse, as if it contradicts the hundreds of verses that declare Yahshua is THE unique Son of Yahweh, and Yahweh His Father.
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[[[[It is nice to know you havent given up on me as of yet, however i do not have the time to sit there and respond to the same thing over and over as we started to do with your postings.

as for answering-christianity, i do find their articles to be informative, ]]]]

That's not a surprise even as you saw how their buffoonery got exposed.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=55.msg6935#msg6935

[[[as for antichrist, you will find that you are more antichrist than i am if you were to understand what you read, your bible tells you ....]]]]

You seem to think it's a matter of personal opinion nali. You better check your "spreadsheet" again. This is what the Bible tells us

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER:

So you recognize the Son of the Living God nali? Do you hold the doctrine of Christ? Do you have both the father and the Son?

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

You don't, because you are a Mohammedan antichrist that engages in pagan Arabian sun, moon, star and jinn/demon worship rituals.

Regarding your second non-point
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=54.0
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[[[[as for antichrist, you will find that you are more antichrist than i am if you were to understand what you read, your bible tells you clearly that god will forgive a repentant person, .......]]]]

But you remain unrepentant and willfully disobedient.

[[[[[........ that is a proof in it's self that you do not need a sacrifice for forgiveness, and also if god requires this sacrifice prior to jesus then he is unjust as there are poor in the community that cannot afford a lamb to sacrifice,do you believe in an unjust god? i know i do not.]]]]]

Well you certainly know what you want. And you are on the path to perdition with your foolish and false presumptions. You don't care a whit about God's plan, only your own.
Do you know that Levite priests were the only ones allowed into the alter to perform sacrifices?
What, do you think the priest was sacrificing a bullock to atone for his own personal sin? Why don't you learn about something before saying such ignorant things?

[[[[so that proof alone .........]]]]

My friend, it is nothing but nonsense, which I guess is synonymous with the term "Mohammedan proof".

[[[[[....... is enough to disproove your religion where you have god against jesus and his message for what you believe to be truth god would have to be unjust to mankind .......]]]]

God is just. That's why he is going to sort us out.

[[[[[......... or he would have to be constantly changing his mind, either way it makes no sense.]]]]]

You are starting by projecting your 21st century Mohammedan antichrist mindset in trying to blaspheme the things of God to follow a murdering, prisoner raping, jinn following thief.

[[[[BTW i am sure you know what verse i am talking about but if not it is ezekiel 18:18-22]]]]

19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father?

My friend, that's about a son bearing his father's iniquity.
To apply any parallel you would have to say that Jesus was sent as a sacrifice to atone for God's iniquity. Pretty dumb eigh, when the reverse is what happened?
You get that from answering-christianity or Deedat/Naik foolishness?

Why don't you pick up a good conservative Bible handbook like Halley's, to help you get started in old covenant apologetics, if the everlasting covenant God has with the seed of Isaac interests you?
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[[[[BTW i am sure you know what verse i am talking about but if not it is ezekiel 18:18-22]]]]]

Maybe I can help a little more.
Let's say you have a 14 year old son.

You are playing ball in your front yard with some adult friends of yours and the ball goes through a neighbor's window.
Let's say you are reprobate and simply shrug your shoulders and say "That's her problem not mine"
Do you think it would be fair to your 14 year old son, if he was made to fix the window, because you wouldn't?

Now let's say it's your 14 year old son that was playing with friends and the ball goes through the neighbor's window.
Let's say your son is rebellious, and leaves with his friends saying "That's her problem not mine".
As a father would you say, "well that's between the neighbor and my son, and has nothing to do with me".
Or would it be fair for you to take the responsibility for your rebellious son and fix the window for the woman?

Well Jesus came to take the weight of sin, that inevitably results from the rebellious nature of all His Sons, from all who have faith in the blood that He shed to accomplish that.
That's what the new covenant and the Gospel are all about, my friend.
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Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

It's a shame you didn't remain ignorant to the things of the Spirit of Yahweh. But you have been shown the truth and you not only rejected it, but even created and then teach against a strawman god of your own imagination, as if your own creation represented Yahweh.

But having been shown the truth, and rejecting it, when you stand before the Son of the Living God in judgment you will be without excuse.

2Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Forever is a very long time, my friend. You could die this very day.
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[[[[YOU:
1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER:

ME:
Again like i said YOU do not understand what you read.

First of this SONship you talk about, the FACT is in the jewish custom a SON of god is simply a righteous person no question about it the fact is ADAM is called the SON of god in the NT, ......]]]]

This is a false understanding you received through an unfortunate KJV translator "helper" word.
The text says that Adam was "of" God.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=538.0
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[[[[YOU:
1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER:

ME:
Again like i said YOU do not understand what you read.

First of this SONship you talk about, the FACT is in the jewish custom a SON of god is simply a righteous person no question about it the fact is ADAM is called the SON of god in the NT, ......]]]]

This is a false understanding you received through an unfortunate KJV translator "helper" word.
The text says that Adam was "of" God.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=538.0
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[[[[....... so if you treat Jesus the same in your belief as you treat Adam then i accept sonship, but you do not, you claim that jesus is a son of god as you are a son of your father which blatantly is a greek interpretation of a jewish custom ........]]]]

I can clarify your misunderstanding with a single verse.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

How many persons in the history of mankind, do you believe were conceived by a virgin, by the will of God?
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[[[[YOU:
This is a false understanding you received through an unfortunate KJV translator "helper" word.
The text says that Adam was "of" God.

ME:
Read the verse:
Luke 3:38 - 38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.



http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=3&v=38&t=KJV#conc/38
3:38 ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????

Which was [the son] of Enos, g1800 ???? En?s

which was [the son] of Seth, g4589 ??? S?th

which was [the son] of Adam, g76 ???? Adam

which was [the son] of God. g2316 ???? theos ]]]]

I explained this and left a link, but then you don't have an interest in truth.
You would rather pretend those words aren't bracketed to continue on in your lie and god of your own creation. That is, you'd rather continue to parrot Yusuf Estes nonsense rather than put a little effort into understanding.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=538.0

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Luke 3:38 tou <3588> enwV <1800> tou <3588> {OF ENOS,} shq <4589> tou <3588> {OF SETH,} adam <76> tou <3588> {OF ADAM,} qeou <2316> {OF GOD.}
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[[[[well if you read your bible there is another who was concieved without mother and father outside of adam:

MELCHIDESEK

"Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life. . . HEBREWS 7:3]]]]

I guess your difficulty is that you read scripture like a novel. This verse is indicating that his parents were unknown as were the dates of his birth and death. Why don't you try Googling something before you believe something so foolish?

[[[[and he was a priest that was in the time of abraham so the fact is if jesus is god, then his priest is a bigger god than jesus.]]]]

But hey, why pass up an opportunity to blaspheme God, eigh?

Setting your ridiculous example aside for a moment, that didn't answer to the question anyway, how many people in the history of mankind were conceived by a virgin by the will of God?
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[[[EVERY LAST ONE OF THE BIBLES I HAVE QUOTED FROM IS YOUR CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS WHO HAVE TRANSLATED THIS, THESE ARE THE BEST THAT YOU HAVE IN TRANSLATION FORM AND NOT A SINGLE ONE DISAGREES WITH THE KJV ....]]]]

But any versions that removed brackets for the TRANSLATOR INSERTED words [the son], DISAGREES with the KJV because [the son] did not occur in the Koine Greek, as I already pointed out to you with the Greek/English interlinear.

But you reject the Koine Greek, to then go on to remove a verse entirely from context, so you can go on to pretend that it must contradict the entirety of the Gospel - to aid in creation of your own straw-man god, pretending him to be Yahweh who you blaspheme - because satan has replaced a love of truth, with a love of lies in you. That's because you follow the father of lies through his murdering, prisoner raping, thieving, 7th century false prophet, Mohammed.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?board=53.0
And yes your [the son] misunderstanding is a Yusuf Estes trick whether you know it or not. He pretends to be a "scholar" too, and enjoys the same raucous Muslim applause that the poor deluded bible-ignorant souls, offered to Deedat.

Like most Muslims, you seem to prefer modern pop-versions of the Bible that those self-proclaimed "scholars" almost universally translated, from a corrupt 19th century Greek text, written by two English spiritualists named Westcott and Hort.
You see, my friend, the church has been under attack by satan ever since the first century, as John detailed near the end of the first century.

Here are the words of one such pop-bible "scholar" - in hindsight - regarding those New Age Bible versions.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/new_age_bible_versions.htm

"I must under God renounce every attachment to the New American Standard,

... I'm afraid I'm in trouble with the Lord ... We laid the groundwork; I wrote the format; I helped interview some of the translators; I sat with the translator; I wrote the preface ...

I'm in trouble; I can't refute these arguments; its wrong, it's terribly wrong; it's frighteningly wrong; and what am I going to do about it? ... I can no longer ignore these criticisms I am hearing and I can't refute them ...

When questions began to reach me at first I was quite offended. However, in attempting to answer, I began to sense that something was not right about the NASV. Upon investigation, I wrote my very dear friend, Mr. Lockman, explaining that I was forced to renounce all attachment to the NASV ... The product is grievous to my heart and helps to complicate matters in these already troublous times .. The deletions are absolutely frightening ... there are so many ... Are we so naive that we do not suspect Satanic deception in all of this? ...

I don't want anything to do with it ...
[T]he finest leaders that we have today .. haven't gone into it [the new version's use of a corrupted Greek text], just as I hadn't gone into it ... That's how easily one can be deceived ... I'm going to talk to him [Dr. George Sweeting, then president of Moody Bible Institute] about these things ...

[Y]ou can say the Authorized Version [KJV] is absolutely correct. How correct? 100% correct! ...

If you must stand against everyone else, stand."

Dr. Frank Logsdon
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[[[[ME:
why would i need to google anything when i can simply read the verse where it states rather clearly:

"neither beginning of days nor end of life" ]]]]

I asked you how many people in the history of the world were born of a virgin by the will of God, and you gave me an example in which even what you quoted states that Melchisedec had no father OR MOTHER.
Can you even see that you picked the EXACT WORST example you ever could have pulled out of scripture?

Do you know what a Christophany is?
What does the name "Melchisedec" mean?
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[[[[YOU:
How many people in the history of mankind were conceived by a virgin by the will of God?

ME:
Simply put, i do not have the knowledge of god therefore i do not know how many miracles god might have performed.]]]]

Do you see how you chose to run and hide from something that even you know to be truth?
How many Messiahs does Islam teach there are?
How many other prophets were born of virgins by the will of God?

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
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[[[[Sir, i do not read greek, i read english,...]]]]

Same with me. That's why I showed you in the Greek/ENGLISH interlinear.
(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Luke 3:38 tou <3588> enwV <1800> tou <3588> {OF ENOS,} shq <4589> tou <3588> {OF SETH,} adam <76> tou <3588> {OF ADAM,} qeou <2316> {OF GOD.}

[[[[[luke 3:38
Kenan, 38of Enosh, of Seth, of Adam, of God.

so Adam is OF god, that is he is from god, .....]]]]

Yes. Scripture reveals that God made him from the dust of the ground.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[[[[.... and a part of god. based on these words you want to use, so Adam is a part of god just as Seth is a part of Adam ........]]]

No it says that Seth is OF Adam. Just as you are OF your father.

[[[[......... so the problem still remains, no matter what excuse you want to come up with, the fact is that Adam is of god ........]]]]

Just as scripture reveals.

[[[[........ and you claim jesus is of god as well, and if you are going to say well no jesus is the son of god, .....]]]]]

As you well know by now because I have shown you, it isn't about what I say but about how hundreds of verses reveal Jesus as THE unique Son of God.
That's why you will not be able to plead ignorance when you stand before the Son of God in judgment.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.0
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=316.0

[[[[....... then i must ask you isnt Seth the son of Adam and you were upset with us inserting the TRANSLATOR's words here? so either case you have been proven to the point of nothing...]]]]]

The insistent blasphemy of the spirit of antichrist will never cease to surprise me.


[[[[..... but as my quran teaches:

002.018
YUSUFALI: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). ]]]]

But Mohammed also told you that he rode a flying camel to Jerusalem, heaven and back to Mecca by morning, and you bought that too.

He also told you about the things he loved like raping female prisoners.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1564.0

You reject Yahweh to follow Mohammed's moon god "Allah" - revealed as reprobate through Islam's own books.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?board=53.0

You even perform the very same pagan rituals that the Quraish performed before Mohammed was ever born.
Then Mohammed eventually elbowed the pagans out of their own rituals!!!

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 689:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'
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Peter

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Re: naliakbar on Sonship of Jesus Christ
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2010, 08:41:08 AM »


[[[[YOU:
I asked you how many people in the history of the world were born of a virgin by the will of God, and you gave me an example in which even what you quoted states that Melchisedec had no father OR MOTHER.
Can you even see that you picked the EXACT WORST example you ever could have pulled out of scripture?

Do you know what a Christophany is?
What does the name "Melchisedec" mean?

ME:
No it is you who is blinded by your own ignorance that you cannot see that you are asking a question that is rediciliuos....

i am saying to you and please christian read this carefully because you are to ignorant for your own good so slow down and read this carefully.

Jesus was born of a WOMAN, ........]]]]

As we both believe - a virgin - by the will of God.

[[[[........ this man Melchidesec was NOT BORN has no parents and according to your bible he was a PRIEST in the Temple, .......]]]]

And isn't it interesting that Abraham paid tithes to him?
And look at this first communion that was offered to Abraham by Melchizedek.

Genesis 14.18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed [be] Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

[[[[........ so dont start with the bs about him being god or another name for god, because i have NEVER heard a single christian refer to him as god, .....]]]]

Then you have never investigated the passage, because you prefer to remain in your self-imposed ignorance, creating your own straw gods, with which you blaspheme Yahweh/Yahshua.

The translation of the Hebrew name "Melchizedek" means "King of Righteousness". Isn't that interesting?

[[[[...... nor have i heard a jew refer to his as the name of god.]]]]

You won't find too many Jews that have been sovereignly blinded to the Gospel, admitting to christophanies in Scripture. Indeed the Jews have some difficulty with the man in this passage.

[[[[..... as for these words you want to come up with i dont know what christophany is i and really and truely dont wnat to know .....]]]]

Indeed there is that spirit of antichrist calling the shots in you again. You are immediately put off by the prefix "christ" because you don't know Him.
Christophanies are appearances of Jesus Christ to mankind during the old covenant, before He was manifest to in the flesh. Here's another where 3 men were put in an oven and a 4th appeared among them.

Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=615.0

[[[[..... because jesus was a jew, his followers were jews, .......]]]]

Some definitely were, and are unto today.
But salvation through His shed blood is offered for salvation to ALL - including Gentiles like you - nali.

John 1.11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
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[[[[..... so my focus should be on hebrew not greek. ......]]]]

Why? Scripture was written in Hebrew, Greek and a little in Syriac.

[[[[...... but you dont have any scriptures in hebrew, ......]]]]

Our Old Testament is largely in Hebrew.

[[[[..... actually it is not hebrew that jesus spoke but the dialect called aramiac which is a dead language...]]]]

Indeed it was pretty much dead to the Greeks too.
But for you to suggest that Jesus didn't address Jews in Hebrew, and Greeks in Greek would be akin to a U.S. businessman addressing a conference in Yiddish.

[[[[....doenst that strike you as amazing, this is the language of your god that just died, ........]]]]

Languages evolve. You seem to not know that Arabic is a modern offshoot of Aramaic.

[[[[........ in the case of islam the language not only survived ......]]]]

The Arabic of the Quran is a very pop-form of Arabic spoken by the Yemeni Quraish in the 7th century AD.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1693.0
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[[[[[ ..... in the case of islam the language not only survived but even those who do not speak a word in arabic with understanding does has the words of god memorized.]]]]

That's perhaps the greatest tragedy of Islam. Parrot dupes as opposed to folks trying to understand what the Quran actually says.

"Gerd Puin, the world's leading specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Qur'anic paleography, studying the oldest manuscripts, speaks with disdain about the willingness of Muslims and non-Muslims alike, to accept Islamic dogma. He says: "The Qur'an claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or clear, but if you just look at it, you will see that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur'an is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur'an is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid."

[[[[ .....none the less different topic, but the fact is Jesus needed a woman to be born, ......]]]]

Where do you find this revealed as a NEED of Yahshua/Yahweh?
Do you see what I mean about straw gods of your own creation?

[[[[........ here this guy meldechidesec needed no one, he was born outside of any human intervention according to your bible, .......]]]]

It could mean that, or the passage may be understood as simply as recognizing that his parents and genealogy were a historical mystery.
I tend to favor the christophany.

[[[[....... so if anyone needs to be called god it would be him not jesus.]]]]

See what I mean? Your straw god of your own creation again.
Why don't you study a little about the mystery surrounding this character in both Judaism and Christianity?
Start with a Google like - melchizedek was jesus

That will help you see the ignorance you professed when you admitted "...i have NEVER heard a single christian refer to him as god..."
________________

[[[[YOU:
[[[[Sir, i do not read greek, i read english,...]]]]

Same with me. That's why I showed you in the Greek/ENGLISH interlinear.
(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Luke 3:38 tou <3588> enwV <1800> tou <3588> {OF ENOS,} shq <4589> tou <3588> {OF SETH,} adam <76> tou <3588> {OF ADAM,} qeou <2316> {OF GOD.}

ME:
As we read are we going to see you admit to saying something about the KJV that is not true? We will see as we read.


YOU:
[[[[[luke 3:38
Kenan, 38of Enosh, of Seth, of Adam, of God.

so Adam is OF god, that is he is from god, .....]]]]

Yes. Scripture reveals that God made him from the dust of the ground.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

ME:
That is what you want the verse to say, but it does not say Adam FROM God, it states Adam OF god, there is a completely different meaning derived based on the choice of word here... You are attempting to apply a meaning to the text that is not there, ........}}}}}}}

Not at all. My view is supported by the hundreds of verses that detail the unique relationship between Yahweh and Yahshua ("Yahweh saves") that is detailed in the hundreds of verses regarding Yahweh and THE only begotten Son of Yahweh. It is you that must so foolishly ignore them in your effort to bend the entirety of the New Testament to what you wish it said.

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.0
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=316.0

That's the reason some versions didn't bother to bracket the helper words. They knew that nobody could be mentally challenged enough to read the Gospel, and this verse in context, and not see the difference between Adam being FORMED from the dust of the ground and Yahshua THE MESSIAH being CONCEIVED by a virgin.

{{{{{.......... yes I agree god created mankind, and I apply the same form of creation to Jesus .......}}}}

But the hundreds of scriptures you deny, do not. You wish to follow a god of your own creation, as well as your reprobate false prophet's creation.

{{{{{...... but you do not believe in that application of creation, you take words literally for jesus and figuratively for others, and as such you have a very conflicted idea of who jesus was... if you apply the same standard you will not come to the conclusion that you do. None the less waste of time discussion the FACT is that for you to be OF something that means you are a part of it. I am of my Father, because my father's sperms is what is responsible for creating me, Adam is OF god because he was created and so was jesus OF god because he was created but you are not going to accept this understanding so we are going to keep going in circles here.}}}}}

It is you that has no sense of reason. You pretend there is no difference between one FIRST human being FORMED from the dust of the ground, and the other CONCEIVED by a virgin by the will of Yahweh, much later on, that came as THE MESSIAH, while ignoring the rest of the New Testament - as if this verse were the only one in the New Testament.

In Mohammedanism you have to pretend there is no difference between Yahshua, who even you believe never died, and a murdering, prisoner raping, 7th century thief, whose corpse still lies rotting in it's shallow grave.
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[[[[[ME:
What does this have to do with Melchizedek being without mother or father as compared to jesus who had a mother? Can you please tell me what does this have to do with this person not having a mother or father? ]]]]]

Your efforts to wear me out by ignoring answers you have already been given, won't make your demigod any more real.
This freedom from accountability, is the same reason you are afraid to come to the forum.
__________________

YOU:
[[[[..... as for these words you want to come up with i dont know what christophany is i and really and truely dont wnat to know .....]]]]

Indeed there is that spirit of antichrist calling the shots in you again. You are immediately put off by the prefix "christ" because you don't know Him.
Christophanies are appearances of Jesus Christ to mankind during the old covenant, before He was manifest to in the flesh. Here's another where 3 men were put in an oven and a 4th appeared among them.

Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=615.0

ME:
What a redicilious notion, I in context of what I was saying is I don't care what it means because jesus was a jew... who cares about these rediciliously long words you guys keep coming up with .......}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Then set the word aside if it hurts your head, and instead try the phrase "appearance of Yahshua in the Old Testament" as in THE EXAMPLE, that you ignored, to engage in more useless blather.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{...... I don't care about them, to me if religion cannot be taught on a layman level .......}}}}}}}}}}

But it can easily be taught and understood on a lay level. Even in a phrase.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You just don't understand, that you can't understand.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

You hate Yahshua, as does a jealous fallen angel, and insist on following Mohammed's moon god "Allah".

{{{{{{{{{{{{....... it is not a religion worth wasting time with and clearly you cannot do this without introducing words that no one knows. }}}}}}}}}}

What you are really saying is that you have destroyed your intellect and capacity for understanding and learning, and accomplished voiding your mind sufficiently of scripture, history, archaeology and geography, to adopt the ignorance of a 7th century desert dwelling illiterate, so that you can continue to follow a 7th century illiterate reprobate murdering, prisoner raping, thief.

What happened to all that historical and archaeological proof, of a pre-Mohammed Islam, you claimed you had? Did you do the Google searches I suggested?

Like - archaeological record confirms abraham bible

Next - archaeological historical record Jerusalem
Next - archaeological historical record Mecca

Try this Wikipedia article
Ancient Towns in Saudi Arabia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia

You didn't because you desire to remain in your self-imposed ignorance.
______________________


Peter

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Re: naliakbar on Sonship of Jesus Christ
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2010, 09:03:58 AM »
These are the full text replies of naliakbar related to this conversation. If anyone has questions, or feels something significant was omitted from the first two posts, please feel free to inquire about it.
Basically the subjects being discussed are the sonship of Yahshua, his effort to nullify the New Testament with his misunderstanding of a single verse, and Mechelezedek which he obviously never investigated (nor did I before this chat) but rather mechanically regurgitates what others falsely believe.
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naliakbar wrote

It is nice to know you havent given up on me as of yet, however i do not have the time to sit there and respond to the same thing over and over as we started to do with your postings.

as for answering-christianity, i do find their articles to be informative, however i do not use them as my primary source for discussion, rather i use the verses i have compiled in my own readings when i respond, i have a spreadsheet with over 140 verses i have compiled that i refer to when i ahve discussions with you or any other for that matter.


as for antichrist, you will find that you are more antichrist than i am if you were to understand what you read, your bible tells you clearly that god will forgive a repentant person, that is a proof in it's self that you do not need a sacrifice for forgiveness, and also if god requires this sacrifice prior to jesus then he is unjust as there are poor in the community that cannot afford a lamb to sacrifice, do you believe in an unjust god? i know i do not.

so that proof alone is enough to disproove your religion where you have god against jesus and his message for what you believe to be truth god would have to be unjust to mankind or he would have to be constantly changing his mind, either way it makes no sense.

BTW i am sure you know what verse i am talking about but if not it is ezekiel 18:18-22
_____________________

YOU:
1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER:

ME:
Again like i said YOU do not understand what you read.

First of this SONship you talk about, the FACT is in the jewish custom a SON of god is simply a righteous person no question about it the fact is ADAM is called the SON of god in the NT, so if you treat Jesus the same in your belief as you treat Adam then i accept sonship, but you do not, you claim that jesus is a son of god as you are a son of your father which blatantly is a greek interpretation of a jewish custom which is really redicilious because the fact is jesus clarifys this myth in your bible in John 10:34 when the jews accused him of blasphamy that IS IT NOT WRITTEN IN YOUR LAW I SAY YE ARE GODS? so unless you worship every single jew you meet you are applying a double standard to your faith and as i said quite clearly you do not understnad what you read.

as for the christship of jesus, well there is no doubt in the quran jesus is called the messiah/chist multiple places within the quran so the fact is that you are as i said confused as to what you are in belief with, i have never nor will i ever deny jesus is the messiah of god. what i do deny is that jesus is the son of god as i am the son of my father, i do believe he is the son of god as adam was the son of god but that is not what you believe.
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YOU:
But you remain unrepentant and willfully disobedient.

ME:
Sir, i am not the one sitting on the keybord stating that my sins are paid for by someone who i didnt consult with when i commited my sins, i am not the one who is afraid to admit infront of my lord that i commited sins and if he doent forgive me i am lost, i am surly not the one who is unrepentant. I stand behind my sins, i dont pass them off to others so it is you that should question yourself as to who is truely unrepentant.

as for willfully disobedient, let me check here god forbids the worship of ANYTHING that is created, jesus was on earth and the fact is that we know that No man can see god and live therefore jesus was created because according to your believe not only were people able to see jesus but they even killed him so that fact alone prooves he was a created being and therefore any form of worship directed to him is idolitry which means that for anyone worshiping jesus they are going against the FACT that god and jesus himself said to worship only god.


YOU:
Well you certainly know what you want. And you are on the path to perdition with your foolish and false presumptions. You don't care a whit about God's plan, only your own.
Do you know that Levite priests were the only ones allowed into the alter to perform sacrifices?
What, do you think the priest was sacrificing a bullock to atone for his own personal sin? Why don't you learn about something before saying such ignorant things?


ME:
Sir, i dont care what the Levite priests were doing i care what the prophets taught, it might not be clear with Abraham, but it is definatley clear with Moses, where the people had to kill the sheep and smere the blood over their doors for passover. Also the fact is that the PEOPLE took the sheeps or what ever to the priest to be killed for them, which is not so far fetched because even today when we as muslims slaughter we take it to someone who is capable to doing such s thing...


YOU:
My friend, it is nothing but nonsense, which I guess is synonymous with the term "Mohammedan proof".
ME:
Call it what ever you like the fact is that you would keep denying that your bible tells you that repentance of a sin is all that is needed to be forgiven.


YOU:God is just. That's why he is going to sort us out
ME:
I agree which is why i cannot go into a religion of idolitry, especially one in which the concepts has to change when you are speaking to differnet people, that is my biggest proof against your religion.

here is a challenge to you, can you proove your religion to me without prooving hinduism? because the second you tell me that god took the shape of a man, you are telling me hinduism is truth as they believe that god takes the shape of ALL creatures. so please do that for me, tell me about your religion in layman's english without prooving the rleigion of my ancestors which is hinduism.


YOU:
You are starting by projecting your 21st century Mohammedan antichrist mindset in trying to blaspheme the things of God to follow a murdering, prisoner raping, jinn following thief.

ME:
this is just a pathetic claim it is not even funny, i already explained to you how we are not antichrist so why waste time saying the same thing over and over again, you are ad the quran say deaf, dumb and blind, you will not beleive because you have decided to disbelieve before you even looked at the facts.

as for murdering, well let me see moses fought wars and killed people from man, woman and child, according to the bible the only thing he saved were virgins as commanded by god. Muhammad on the other hand did not attack non combatants, therefore muhamamad in comparision to your bible's version of moses is way better than moses (i must state emphatically i do not believe that muhammad is better than moses, as they are all prophets of god, but you have forced me to show you how pathatic your claims are based on your own bible) as for this so called prisoner raping the fact is that moses only saved virgins, let me ask how do you know a girl is a virgin more than 3000 years ago? the only way us to look at her vagina and make sure she was not broken in, it not like she would be wearing a sign board that she was a virgin, so again moses commanded the rape of so many women and to make things even more interesting GOD got 32 of these virgins, to do what i have no idea but the fact is it states that 32 was the are of the Lord. please refer to your bible and read Numbers 31:17-18 if you do not believe what i state.
With reguards to Jinn following, well let me thing the entire practice in islam is to protect ourselves against the influence of jinns therefore the fact is that you are just wishing it were that, you assume we are the followers of aswat an ansee or something but we are followers of Muhammad(saw)

As for thieving... well there is not a single proof that the muslims stole anything, booty of war is not stealing nor is blockade of supplies to the enemy, you dont have a problem with israel blocking palestine from getting weapons, you sure as hell cannot have a problem with muhammad(saw) blocking mecca and others from getting supplies because war is stratedgy.


YOU:
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father?

My friend, that's about a son bearing his father's iniquity.

ME:
Look how foolish this question truely is, you are talking about what the people asked the prophets, not what god said, "yet say YE" that is basically the prophet sayind "and YOU SAY..." but then when you continue reading which apparently you do not how to read becasue it says CLEARLY:

20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will NOT share the guilt of the father, NOR will the father share the guilt of the son....


the fact is that silly question is answered, and it is EXACTLY what islam says, no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another is the islamic teaching:

039.007
YUSUFALI: If ye reject (Allah), Truly Allah hath no need of you; but He liketh not ingratitude from His servants: if ye are grateful, He is pleased with you. No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. In the end, to your Lord is your Return, when He will tell you the truth of all that ye did (in this life). for He knoweth well all that is in (men's) hearts.



YOU:
To apply any parallel you would have to say that Jesus was sent as a sacrifice to atone for God's iniquity. Pretty dumb eigh, when the reverse is what happened?

ME:
you have me sitting here cracking up, it is not even funny, you should really think about being a comedian because that is what you are... when did i say i believe jesus was killed? when did i say that jesus was a sacrifice for anything?

i believe jesus was the promised messiah to the jews, who came to complete god's favor on teh children of israel, whereby they had a complete religion, but they rejected and deviated, and god sent Muhammad(saw) to ALL of mankind some have deviated but by the will of god the religion will always remain protected till the end of time.


YOU:
You get that from answering-christianity or Deedat/Naik foolishness?

ME:
no i get that from the fact that i do not believe that jesus was killed or crucified as the quran stats quite clearly, the quran also states quite clearly that an event that looked as if jesus was killed did happen because it is the way of god to allow the wicked to be decieved, and that is not just an islamic teaching it is in your bible 2 thes 2:11 if you would be so kind to check it up.


YOU:
Why don't you pick up a good conservative Bible handbook like Halley's, to help you get started in old covenant apologetics, if the everlasting covenant God has with the seed of Isaac interests you?

ME:
well quite clearly you dont see a contradiction with these verses in your bible, the fact is that Ishmile was the FIRST son of Abraham, yet for some reason god forgets this in the bible, and then to make matters even worst, god then promises to bless the children of ishmile, clearly someone inserted some wrods into the bible that should nto be there but you would not even think about it.
_______________________

YOU:
Maybe I can help a little more.
Let's say you have a 14 year old son.

You are playing ball in your front yard with some adult friends of yours and the ball goes through a neighbor's window.
Let's say you are reprobate and simply shrug your shoulders and say "That's her problem not mine"
Do you think it would be fair to your 14 year old son, if he was made to fix the window, because you wouldn't?

Now let's say it's your 14 year old son that was playing with friends and the ball goes through the neighbor's window.
Let's say your son is rebellious, and leaves with his friends saying "That's her problem not mine".
As a father would you say, "well that's between the neighbor and my son, and has nothing to do with me".
Or would it be fair for you to take the responsibility for your rebellious son and fix the window for the woman?

Well Jesus came to take the weight of sin, that inevitably results from the rebellious nature of all His Sons, from all who have faith in the blood that He shed to accomplish that.
That's what the new covenant and the Gospel are all about, my friend.

ME:
Nice attempt to try and rationalize this but there is no rationalization that can really take effect here... who is it that commanded us to have sex to reproduce? it is god is it not? who is it that commanded us to have sex with our wives only? it is god was it not? who made the law that sex is good if it is with your wife and bad if it is not with your wife? was it not god? so why does god now need to give us a get out of jail free card by commiting suicide for our sins? why cant he simply forgive us as he created us with the instinct to reproduce and we have the urge to reproduce with the next woman we see that is attractive as we are created as such. so if we make the mistake of going against god and are truely repentant why cant god forgive...

in your senerio of the window, what if my child were to go to the neighbor and say, hey i am sorry for breaking your window, it was an accident, what can i do to fix this and the neighbor says, you can cut my grass for the next 3 weeks and we call it even?
why cant this senerio also occur and the neigbor spends their own money and fixes it? see when you claim that god would not forgive you are claiming that god has no mercy.
_______________________

YOU:
Forever is a very long time, my friend. You could die this very day.


ME:
IT ABSOLUTLY IS, which is why i will follow the teaching of god to adam as it was explained to us by the prophets because there is not a single prophet that speak of adam worshiping any other than god himself, and he was the one who saw god in the garden, you nor i saw god but adam did and he prayed to god directly bowed down before him and worshiped and as such his way the way of my father adam is the way i am to worship god and the only religon that teaches that is the religino of the jew and the religion of the muslims. i am not a jew i do not hail from the children of abraham, my hindu ancestry tells me that the only path that i cna follow is the way of muhammad(saw) as his way is for mankind never did he claim to come only to the arabs, but surely jesus claimed he came only to the jews according to your bible... so yes forever is a very long time, infact in forever 1 day is 50000 years of our lives it is hard to live just 20 years of our lives without being fustrated about something 50000 years of fire to complete one day is way more than i can handle and as such i will make sure i do what i can to ensure that the path i take is the truth and islam is the only path that no matter who i speak to on the face of this earth i do not need to change what i believe or modify it so convince anyone. that is a sign of truth, i would love to see you meet my chalenge of prooving your faith without prooving the hindu faith i have attempted so many times to try to come up with a possible solution but have not yet but maybe your logical mind is better than mine.

and just that you know so you dont go on the christian rant about the hindus believe in all unique gods.. the vadas state clearly that god is one devine being.
______________________

YOU:
This is a false understanding you received through an unfortunate KJV translator "helper" word.
The text says that Adam was "of" God.


ME:
Read the verse:
Luke 3:38 - 38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=3&v=38&t=KJV#conc/38
3:38 ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????

Which was [the son] of Enos, g1800 ???? En?s

which was [the son] of Seth, g4589 ??? S?th

which was [the son] of Adam, g76 ???? Adam

which was [the son] of God. g2316 ???? theos


so the exact phrase is used when speaking of god and adam as speaking about seth and enos so dont give me this about it is OF, is enos the son of seth if so then in the context of the verse it is clear that adam follows the same relationship with god as this is how the verse is written.
____________________

well if you read your bible there is another who was concieved without mother and father outside of adam:

MELCHIDESEK

"Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life. . . HEBREWS 7:3


and he was a priest that was in the time of abraham so the fact is if jesus is god, then his priest is a bigger god than jesus.
____________________

YOU:
Why's that? What are you afraid of?

ME:
i am not afraid of anything im telling you in so many words that if you get hurt doing so dont get upset with me, the majority of my commuity are people that they are nice, but knowing how you missionaries push yourselves on people the brothers might get upset and if you get hurt that is not my problem as i am not giving you an invitation to come to the mosque to give put trats i would invite you to the mosque to come and listen to the sermon etc, but for what your intent is, i do not pass on that invitation because then you become my responsiblity and i would not bear that burden.
___________________

YOU:
I explained this and left a link, but then you don't have an interest in truth.
You would rather pretend those words aren't bracketed to continue on in your lie and god of your own creation. That is, you'd rather continue to parrot Yusuf Estes nonsense rather than put a little effort into understanding.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=538.0

ME:
You accuse me of copying deedat and naik and answering-christianity now you are accusing me of copying yusuf estes, man this is so redicilious it is not even funny. I qouted you directly from a christian website, and i believe i gave you the link it is www.blueletterbible.com

and the FACT is that the very same structure of sentence is used for the son of adam as it is used in reference to adam, and YOUR scholars translated this verse to say that Adam is the SON of god, not my scholars, my scholars dont have a translation of your bible we use your translations.


As for your page, you stated:
YOU:
The King James translators sometimes included what they thought might be helper words, IN BRACKETS. In this case they stretch from all the way back to verse 23, but unfortunately they also included the same "helper" at the end of the verse in regard to God and Adam.

ME:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luk%203:38%20&version=NIV
Luke 3:38 (New International Version)

the son of Kenan, 38the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luk%203:38&version=KJV
Luke 3:38 (King James Version)

38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luk%203:38&version=ASV
Luke 3:38 (American Standard Version)

38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.


Luke 3:38 (New Century Version)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luk%203:38&version=NCV
38 Kenan was the son of Enosh.
Enosh was the son of Seth.
Seth was the son of Adam.
Adam was the son of God.


The closest you get to anything near what you are saying is
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luk%203:38&version=NKJV
Luke 3:38 (New King James Version)

38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

unfortunately youtube doesnt italize words the the words "the son" is italized that is the closest thing i found.


EVERY LAST ONE OF THE BIBLES I HAVE QUOTED FROM IS YOUR CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS WHO HAVE TRANSLATED THIS, THESE ARE THE BEST THAT YOU HAVE IN TRANSLATION FORM AND NOT A SINGLE ONE DISAGREES WITH THE KJV, and you claimed that brackets are used, i didnt see a single bracket in a single of the verses even the hard copy RSV that i have on my desk has the same problem, so how can you tell me that this is not part of what the translators mean in the text they have given????


only a mislead person would say something that is completely not true when the fact is anyone can open the bible and look. are you going to tell me you know more than your own scholars?

so tell me what do i need to look at and respond when clearly your own scholars proove you to be a liar when not a single one of them used brackets and your own scholars state the adam is the son of god.

Peter

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Re: naliakbar on Sonship of Jesus Christ
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2010, 09:08:59 AM »
YOU:
I guess your difficulty is that you read scripture like a novel. This verse is indicating that his parents were unknown as were the dates of his birth and death. Why don't you try Googling something before you believe something so foolish?

ME:
why would i need to google anything when i can simply read the verse where it states rather clearly:

"neither beginning of days nor end of life"

if someone doesnt have a beginning nor and end who are they? are they not god? that is the only being that i know of that does not have a beginning or end so what do i need to google? you tell me what to google and i will but i dont need to google anything as far as i am concerned because quite clearly the verse tells us that this person has no beginning and no end. or is muslims adding this to the bible too?



YOU:
[[[[and he was a priest that was in the time of abraham so the fact is if jesus is god, then his priest is a bigger god than jesus.]]]]

But hey, why pass up an opportunity to blaspheme God, eigh?

ME:
no it is to show you how rediciliuos the claim you have of jesus being god is when there is someone that if there is any worth being called god would be that person yet he is not even a contender.


YOU:
Setting your ridiculous example aside for a moment, that didn't answer to the question anyway, how many people in the history of mankind were conceived by a virgin by the will of God?

ME:
that knowledge is not with me that is with god, do you claim to know every single man on earth was born out of copulation?

o by the way adam was born out of nothing, even was born out of a virgin man based on the fact that god according to your bible took the rib of adam to create her.

but none the less i do not put myself in the claim that i know all of what god allowed and didnt allow, for all i know there could have been virgin births outside of Jesus, i do not know of any but again that knowledge is with god... do you claim that you know all that god did? are you willing to sit there and claim that god NEVER did this before or after putting yourself in a position to say god cannot do something if he so willed?
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YOU:
How many people in the history of mankind were conceived by a virgin by the will of God?

ME:
Simply put, i do not have the knowledge of god therefore i do not know how many miracles god might have performed.


Now answer my question, explain your religion without prooving hinduism.
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YOU:
But any versions that removed brackets for the TRANSLATOR INSERTED words [the son], DISAGREES with the KJV because [the son] did not occur in the Koine Greek, as I already pointed out to you with the Greek/English interlinear.

ME:
Sir, i do not read greek, i read english, and the fact is that the translations avaliable for me to read NONE of them use the brackets as you mentioned.

but none the less look at the verse in the context of what you claim and STILL it makes no difference:

luke 3:38
Kenan, 38of Enosh, of Seth, of Adam, of God.

so Adam is OF god, that is he is from god, and a part of god. based on these words you want to use, so Adam is a part of god just as Seth is a part of Adam so the problem still remains, no matter what excuse you want to come up with, the fact is that Adam is of god and you claim jesus is of god as well, and if you are going to say well no jesus is the son of god, then i must ask you isnt Seth the son of Adam and you were upset with us inserting the TRANSLATOR's words here? so either case you have been proven to the point of nothing... but as my quran teaches:

002.018
YUSUFALI: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).

and so it is.
______________________

YOU:
I asked you how many people in the history of the world were born of a virgin by the will of God, and you gave me an example in which even what you quoted states that Melchisedec had no father OR MOTHER.
Can you even see that you picked the EXACT WORST example you ever could have pulled out of scripture?

Do you know what a Christophany is?
What does the name "Melchisedec" mean?

ME:
No it is you who is blinded by your own ignorance that you cannot see that you are asking a question that is rediciliuos....

i am saying to you and please christian read this carefully because you are to ignorant for your own good so slow down and read this carefully.

Jesus was born of a WOMAN, this man Melchidesec was NOT BORN has no parents and according to your bible he was a PRIEST in the Temple, so dont start with the bs about him being god or another name for god, because i have NEVER heard a single christian refer to him as god, nor have i heard a jew refer to his as the name of god.

as for these words you want to come up with i dont know what christophany is i and really and truely dont wnat to know because jesus was a jew, his followers were jews, so my focus should be on hebrew not greek. but you dont have any scriptures in hebrew, actually it is not hebrew that jesus spoke but the dialect called aramiac which is a dead language... doenst that strike you as amazing, this is the language of your god that just died, in the case of islam the language not only survived but even those who do not speak a word in arabic with understanding does has the words of god memorized.


none the less different topic, but the fact is Jesus needed a woman to be born, here this guy meldechidesec needed no one, he was born outside of any human intervention according to your bible, so if anyone needs to be called god it would be him not jesus.
__________________________

YOU:

[[[[YOU:
How many people in the history of mankind were conceived by a virgin by the will of God?

ME:
Simply put, i do not have the knowledge of god therefore i do not know how many miracles god might have performed.]]]]

Do you see how you chose to run and hide from something that even you know to be truth?
How many Messiahs does Islam teach there are?
How many other prophets were born of virgins by the will of God?

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

ME:
look how redicilious you are, you cant even keep your questions straight... you asked me how many PEOPLE were born of vigins, and i clearly stated that knowledge is with god, now you are cliaming the question was how many prophets were born of virgins, and i still say that knowledge is with god of thousands prophets there is only 25 who's history is known to us so i honestly do not know if there were any other virgin births, for all we know there could have been, there are other cultures that speak of virgin births like for instance my ancestors religion Krishna was born of a virgin, he could have been a prophet of god and the people mistook him i do not know, but the fact of the matter ist hat this knowledge is with god, and the other fact is that you asked one question but then changed to to another.

as for messiah, there are TWO (2) messiahs spoken about in islam, the mesiah jesus and the messiah dajjal
_______________________

YOU:
[[[[Sir, i do not read greek, i read english,...]]]]

Same with me. That's why I showed you in the Greek/ENGLISH interlinear.
(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Luke 3:38 tou <3588> enwV <1800> tou <3588> {OF ENOS,} shq <4589> tou <3588> {OF SETH,} adam <76> tou <3588> {OF ADAM,} qeou <2316> {OF GOD.}

ME:
As we read are we going to see you admit to saying something about the KJV that is not true? We will see as we read.


YOU:
[[[[[luke 3:38
Kenan, 38of Enosh, of Seth, of Adam, of God.

so Adam is OF god, that is he is from god, .....]]]]

Yes. Scripture reveals that God made him from the dust of the ground.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

ME:
That is what you want the verse to say, but it does not say Adam FROM God, it states Adam OF god, there is a completely different meaning derived based on the choice of word here... You are attempting to apply a meaning to the text that is not there, yes I agree god created mankind, and I apply the same form of creation to Jesus but you do not believe in that application of creation, you take words literally for jesus and figuratively for others, and as such you have a very conflicted idea of who jesus was... if you apply the same standard you will not come to the conclusion that you do. None the less waste of time discussion the FACT is that for you to be OF something that means you are a part of it. I am of my Father, because my father's sperms is what is responsible for creating me, Adam is OF god because he was created and so was jesus OF god because he was created but you are not going to accept this understanding so we are going to keep going in circles here.


YOU:
[[[[.... and a part of god. based on these words you want to use, so Adam is a part of god just as Seth is a part of Adam ........]]]

No it says that Seth is OF Adam. Just as you are OF your father.

ME:
Good lord why do I really bother wasting my time with christians like you... ok it says Seth is OF Adam as I am OF my father fine I agree with this, directly after this PART of the verse it says Adam is OF God, thus it would mean Adam is to God as I am to my father, so in short Adam is the SON of God. We are directly back to what we started of talking about, you using all these big words to twist the meaning and still come back to it.


YOU:
[[[[........ and you claim jesus is of god as well, and if you are going to say well no jesus is the son of god, .....]]]]]

As you well know by now because I have shown you, it isn't about what I say but about how hundreds of verses reveal Jesus as THE unique Son of God.
That's why you will not be able to plead ignorance when you stand before the Son of God in judgment.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.0
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=316.0


ME:
When I stand before my lord the one who created me form nothing, I will stand before him and state quite clearly that ALL of his messengers including Jesus stated emphatically that he was one, and the fact that jesus was on earth tells me he was created and therefore not god, so if god is unjust then he can punish me for believing what he commanded all of his prophets to teach. You on the other hand will have no excuse because I have repeated this multiple times to you, if you cannot logically explain your belief there is a problem and you cannot with christianity, I noticed up to now you have not yet addressed my challenge to you of explaining your faith without prooving hinduism why are you afraid to do it? it is because you know full well that you do not have a religion of truth that is why.

YOU:
[[[[....... then i must ask you isnt Seth the son of Adam and you were upset with us inserting the TRANSLATOR's words here? so either case you have been proven to the point of nothing...]]]]]

The insistent blasphemy of the spirit of antichrist will never cease to surprise me.

ME:
Now I am anti christ because I show you the flaw in your scriptures, who was I blaspheming, I am prooving to you that Adam is called the Son of god in your NT and you are telling me no he is not, when your translators say so, but I am blasphemeing some spirit that is not even in this conversation, how pathetic an attempt to use phycology to attempt to sway my belief.

YOU:
[[[[..... but as my quran teaches:

002.018
YUSUFALI: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). ]]]]

But Mohammed also told you that he rode a flying camel to Jerusalem, heaven and back to Mecca by morning, and you bought that too.

ME:
Wow I am suprized that this christian attempted to change the topic of discussion, o my I almost died from this surprise, what does Muhammad have to do with Adam being called the Son of God? It absoluty has nothing to do with it, what it has to do is a changing of the topic. As for this flying camel you keep speaking of it is a horse, and yes I believe this to be true, we are still discovering animals 1400 years after the death of the prophet here on earth we are yet to discover a single animal from heaven so if God made a flying horse who am I to doubt this? Only a fool will claim that God cannot do what he intends.


YOU:
He also told you about the things he loved like raping female prisoners.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1564.0

ME:
Again an attempt to divert attention to the fact that you would not admit that your bible claims that Adam is the son of god, here I will give you more fuel for you to waste my time, A captive is property and with property you do as you will, o and don't forget this was also something done in your bible you should really read your bible before you pick issues with the teachings of islam.

YOU:
You reject Yahweh to follow Mohammed's moon god "Allah" - revealed as reprobate through Islam's own books.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=53.0
ME:
Foolish person, you are the one who rejects YHWH, I actually know the pronounciation of this word rather than your made up pronounciation, in arabic it is Ya HuWal Hayul (the self sustaining one) go and read the meaning of this word YHWH and you will find that is exactly what it means, and this is not my words that came up with this pronounciation it is in the Quran ayat 2:255. are you going to even take the time to research what does YHWH mean? Or are you going to pretend that I am still praying to a moon god, when clearly the quran tells us that the moon was created.

YOU:
You even perform the very same pagan rituals that the Quraish performed before Mohammed was ever born.
Then Mohammed eventually elbowed the pagans out of their own rituals!!!

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 689:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'

ME:
This is where you are confused, it is truly pathetic because you don't even read your bible. Go and read your bible and you will read of moses taking the people of israel accorss the sea and then these same people started worshiping the calf, you are going to attempt to tell me that if these jews had not been corrected by moses and they and they continue practicing this idol worshiping using the same rituals of the true religion, that when the true religion dismantled this idol worshiping and reclaimed the rights of worship for god that they would be using the pagan worship for god? That is the most redicliious thing I have ever heard, but this is what you are attempting to state. According to islam these rituals came in the time of Abraham, from the running between the mountains as Haggar and everything inbetween, because the pagans just like the jews of moses' time innovated paganism into the religion of truth does not mean that islam came from paganism.
____________________________

YOU:
[[[[........ this man Melchidesec was NOT BORN has no parents and according to your bible he was a PRIEST in the Temple, .......]]]]

And isn't it interesting that Abraham paid tithes to him?
And look at this first communion that was offered to Abraham by Melchizedek.

Genesis 14.18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed [be] Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

ME:
What does this have to do with Melchizedek being without mother or father as compared to jesus who had a mother? Can you please tell me what does this have to do with this person not having a mother or father?

YOU:
[[[[........ so dont start with the bs about him being god or another name for god, because i have NEVER heard a single christian refer to him as god, .....]]]]

Then you have never investigated the passage, because you prefer to remain in your self-imposed ignorance, creating your own straw gods, with which you blaspheme Yahweh/Yahshua.

The translation of the Hebrew name "Melchizedek" means "King of Righteousness". Isn't that interesting?

ME:
No it is not interesting, because the fact is that Jews who believe they are the children of god Gave their children names that to us would be interesting but to them was a common name, like emannuel for instance means "God with us", I can provide atleast 3 individuals I know with this them and I can gaurantee you atleast 1 of them is not god in the least bit. So because a person choose this name for this person does not make them that which the name means, because the minuite you start going in this direction it is better I follow the religion of my ancestors who believed that EVERYTHING is god so you worshp what ever because it all comes back to god evntually which makes more sense to me than what youa re calling to.

YOU:
[[[[...... nor have i heard a jew refer to his as the name of god.]]]]

You won't find too many Jews that have been sovereignly blinded to the Gospel, admitting to christophanies in Scripture. Indeed the Jews have some difficulty with the man in this passage.

ME:
Can you provide evidence of your claim? Now note I am not asking you about the jewish rejection of the gospel accounts because even I reject them as works of men, I am speaking ONLY about the man we are speaking about nothing more, please provide evidence of your claim (I hope you understand I am refering to OT discussion not NT discussion because obviously any jew that is a believer would reject the NT no matter if it called to do good)

YOU:
[[[[..... as for these words you want to come up with i dont know what christophany is i and really and truely dont wnat to know .....]]]]

Indeed there is that spirit of antichrist calling the shots in you again. You are immediately put off by the prefix "christ" because you don't know Him.
Christophanies are appearances of Jesus Christ to mankind during the old covenant, before He was manifest to in the flesh. Here's another where 3 men were put in an oven and a 4th appeared among them.

Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=615.0

ME:
What a redicilious notion, I in context of what I was saying is I don't care what it means because jesus was a jew... who cares about these rediciliously long words you guys keep coming up with I don't care about them, to me if religion cannot be taught on a layman level it is not a religion worth wasting time with and clearly you cannot do this without introducing words that no one knows.


YOU:
[[[[..... because jesus was a jew, his followers were jews, .......]]]]

Some definitely were, and are unto today.
But salvation through His shed blood is offered for salvation to ALL - including Gentiles like you - nali.

John 1.11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


ME:
He also stated in direction to his deciples:

Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He stated clearly:
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And with reguards to this second covenant here is what paul tells you:
Hebrews 8:7-9 (King James Version)
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Clearly tells me that with the new covenant it is with the house of israel and Judah not with the hindus of the indus valley. Muhamamd(saw) from his first to last message stated he came to mankind!!!!
________________________


Peter

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Re: naliakbar on Sonship of Jesus Christ
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2010, 09:13:29 AM »
YOU:
[[[[..... so my focus should be on hebrew not greek. ......]]]]

Why? Scripture was written in Hebrew, Greek and a little in Syriac.

ME:
If you read what I said, I clearly stated that your NT is written in greek and Jesus DID NOT SPEAK GREEK, that is why. This to me is like Muhammad(saw) an arabic speaker yet all of his works are in english it is a rediciliuos notion.


YOU:
[[[[...... but you dont have any scriptures in hebrew, ......]]]]

Our Old Testament is largely in Hebrew.

ME:
Im not talking about the OT we are talking about the NT.


YOU:
[[[[..... actually it is not hebrew that jesus spoke but the dialect called aramiac which is a dead language...]]]]

Indeed it was pretty much dead to the Greeks too.
But for you to suggest that Jesus didn't address Jews in Hebrew, and Greeks in Greek would be akin to a U.S. businessman addressing a conference in Yiddish.

ME:
Being that jesus stated CLEARLY in YOUR BIBLE account that he came ONLY to the the house of ISRAEL I would expect that he would speak mainily in this language. But you want to speak different languages fine, no problem, let me ask you are you willing to take the challenge of your bible? According to your bible a person that drinks poision and is a believer would not die are you willing to drink poison to proove your faith to be truthful?


YOU:
[[[[....doenst that strike you as amazing, this is the language of your god that just died, ........]]]]

Languages evolve. You seem to not know that Arabic is a modern offshoot of Aramaic.

ME:
I would not be surprised, because Both languages comes from our father Abraham, even today the jews use the arabic words to understand the hebrew ones they read so obviously I am not surprised about this.

YOU:
[[[[........ in the case of islam the language not only survived ......]]]]

The Arabic of the Quran is a very pop-form of Arabic spoken by the Yemeni Quraish in the 7th century AD.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1693.0

ME:
And what is your point? It is clear from the order of Abu Bakar and Umar that when the compilers of the quran met with a verse where the 7 dialects would not agree to use the Quarishi arabic, so it is only obvious the quran is written in such language, you speak of this as if it is a revealation, when it is common knowledge, as the prophet(saw) spoke in Quraishi arabic infact he had the nerve to be born in the Arab Quarishi tribe as well.
________________________

YOU:
[[[[[ ..... in the case of islam the language not only survived but even those who do not speak a word in arabic with understanding does has the words of god memorized.]]]]

That's perhaps the greatest tragedy of Islam. Parrot dupes as opposed to folks trying to understand what the Quran actually says.

"Gerd Puin, the world's leading specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Qur'anic paleography, studying the oldest manuscripts, speaks with disdain about the willingness of Muslims and non-Muslims alike, to accept Islamic dogma. He says: "The Qur'an claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or clear, but if you just look at it, you will see that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur'an is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur'an is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid."

ME:
You see it as a tragedy, I as a muslim see it as the fulfillment of the promise of Allah that the quran would be easy to memorize and that it would be protected, and look for 1400 + years the quran has not been altered not a single word has been entered in or taken out, that is the power of truth the protection god placed on his holy book.

YOU:
[[[[ .....none the less different topic, but the fact is Jesus needed a woman to be born, ......]]]]

Where do you find this revealed as a NEED of Yahshua/Yahweh?
Do you see what I mean about straw gods of your own creation?

ME:
I find it in the history that you and I both believe, did you forget that you capatalized the words VIRGIN WOMAN? Was he born outside of a woman? No the answer is he was born IN a woman and as such he NEEDED a woman to be born, I am not talking about the ability of God, I am talking about facts jesus didn't just come out of the sky and did what he had to do, he had to come into the world via a woman.
You should take the log out of your eye as jesus commands you to do before you attempt to tell me about my straw, because the fact is clear, you believe it so, you not only believe it but you prophesize that jesus was born of a virgin so why all of a sudden that is not truth?

YOU:
[[[[........ here this guy meldechidesec needed no one, he was born outside of any human intervention according to your bible, .......]]]]

It could mean that, or the passage may be understood as simply as recognizing that his parents and genealogy were a historical mystery.
I tend to favor the christophany.
ME:
Again I am a layman and I refuse to use words I do not understand, if god was so stupid that he would not make his religion easy for the totally uneducated to understand that shows well how stupid god is. I ofcourse do not believe in a stupid god, infact the god I believe in made his religion so simple that any person with 5 fingers would not be able to forget what islam teaches that is how simple the religion of Islam is. I don't sit here and come up with fancy words to explain way anything in islam, granted some words when translated looses its meaning but that goes back to why the quran is kept in arabic so we don't loose any of the meaning.

Anyways lets look at this christophany of yours and from it I will still PROOVE to you that it is a waste of time argument. This entire problems we are speaking about stems from Hebrews so lets look more into it.
The verse:
Hebrews 7 (NIV)
1This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." 3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

Read what the verse says about Melchizedek it says "3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever." read it again "like the Son of God" what does it say? LIKE the son of god that is to say he is NOT the son of god, that is to say he is made similar to the son of god, that is to say if you are consistient you would be worshiping him as you worship the son of god that goes to show you that even with this supposed claim of christophany it is clear that the author of Hebrews states clearly that this person was NOT Jesus (because you believe jesus to be the son of god)

YOU:
[[[[....... so if anyone needs to be called god it would be him not jesus.]]]]

See what I mean? Your straw god of your own creation again.
Why don't you study a little about the mystery surrounding this character in both Judaism and Christianity?
Start with a Google like - melchizedek was jesus

That will help you see the ignorance you professed when you admitted "...i have NEVER heard a single christian refer to him as god..."

ME:
Why should I waste my time searching to see what others have to say, I should read the scriptures and let it speak for it's self, if God's words are not clear how can any other man's words be clear?
________________________

YOU:
Not at all. My view is supported by the hundreds of verses that detail the unique relationship between Yahweh and Yahshua ("Yahweh saves") that is detailed in the hundreds of verses regarding Yahweh and THE only begotten Son of Yahweh. It is you that must so foolishly ignore them in your effort to bend the entirety of the New Testament to what you wish it said.

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.0
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=316.0

That's the reason some versions didn't bother to bracket the helper words. They knew that nobody could be mentally challenged enough to read the Gospel, and this verse in context, and not see the difference between Adam being FORMED from the dust of the ground and Yahshua THE MESSIAH being CONCEIVED by a virgin.


ME:
Then they were wrong, because this mentally challenged person who expects the words of god to be perfect expects that when it says something I shoud usderstand it as such.

And the fact is in the sequence of the verse everyone else WAS the son of the previously mentioned and all of a sudden when ti comes to Adam the thing magically does not mean the same thing

And what do you mean by concieved by a virgin? What are you tring to tell me that god had sex with mary? In islam he was not concieved he was spoken into existience so please explain to me what you mean by concieve by a virgin?

YOU:
{{{{{.......... yes I agree god created mankind, and I apply the same form of creation to Jesus .......}}}}

But the hundreds of scriptures you deny, do not. You wish to follow a god of your own creation, as well as your reprobate false prophet's creation.

ME:
It is you who follow the god of Paul's creation, Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad(saw) all taught the same thing about god that he is one and has no partners anything else is false, you claim that jesus is god but not the father as such you believe in a separate god and I keep asking you to expain this relationship without prooving hinduism and you keep ignoring this question because you know with fact that you cannot. So it is you who are followign a false prophet's creation, jesus commanded the worship of one god, he even prayed to this one god, and don't attempt to tell me this was him teaching us how to pray when the bible clearly says he goes off by himself to pray to god.
Mark 1:35 - "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed."

Now I ask if Jesus was god, who did he leave and go pray to? Does god need to pray to himself?


YOU:
{{{{{...... but you do not believe in that application of creation, you take words literally for jesus and figuratively for others, and as such you have a very conflicted idea of who jesus was... if you apply the same standard you will not come to the conclusion that you do. None the less waste of time discussion the FACT is that for you to be OF something that means you are a part of it. I am of my Father, because my father's sperms is what is responsible for creating me, Adam is OF god because he was created and so was jesus OF god because he was created but you are not going to accept this understanding so we are going to keep going in circles here.}}}}}

It is you that has no sense of reason. You pretend there is no difference between one FIRST human being FORMED from the dust of the ground, and the other CONCEIVED by a virgin by the will of Yahweh, much later on, that came as THE MESSIAH, while ignoring the rest of the New Testament - as if this verse were the only one in the New Testament.

ME:
Do you understand what a standard is? Why are you not applying this to the conversation, you are coming up with all these fancy ways of explaining things but rather than holding a standard, to me the creation of jesus is not as miraclous as the creation of Adam, because jesus came from another Life, but adam came out of NOTHING Dust didn't exist before god created this dust and from it he created man that is more miracalious than a woman getting pregnant but you are downplaying a true miracle to elevate another miracle.

YOU:
In Mohammedanism you have to pretend there is no difference between Yahshua, who even you believe never died, and a murdering, prisoner raping, 7th century thief, whose corpse still lies rotting in it's shallow grave.
ME:
I do not follow a religion called Mohammedanism first of all... secondly Jesus was not killed nor crucified but it was made to appear so as the quran stated, this is where there are accounts that claim the event occurred but infact it didn't. And you can come up with all the insults you like about my beloved prophet the fact remains you are a pagan worshiping individual who thinks they are worshiping god, and knowingly decieving themselves so I follow someone that taught me to survive and worship the one true god, you follow somone who attributed godship to a person that never claimed it that is pagan worshiping if I knew any better.
___________________

YOU:
Your efforts to wear me out by ignoring answers you have already been given, won't make your demigod any more real.
This freedom from accountability, is the same reason you are afraid to come to the forum.

ME:
you havent given any answers which is why i asked you the question i did, why are you wasting my time telling me about something that has nothing to do with what we are discussing?
_______________________

YOU:
Then set the word aside if it hurts your head, and instead try the phrase "appearance of Yahshua in the Old Testament" as in THE EXAMPLE, that you ignored, to engage in more useless blather.

ME:
And I already explained to you the fact is the book of hebrews prooves that this person Meldechesik was not Jesus as I showed already.

YOU:
But it can easily be taught and understood on a lay level. Even in a phrase.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You just don't understand, that you can't understand.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

You hate Yahshua, as does a jealous fallen angel, and insist on following Mohammed's moon god "Allah".

ME:
You call that explaining your religion in layman level? Ok lets ask a question in layman level to your repsonse.
If god has a son who was his wife?
Simple question can you answer it?

I do not hate jesus as he is most respected in islam, and I do not believe in a moon god because clearly the quran states god created the moon so it would be rediclious for a being that claims in the quran that he is uncreated to be something he created (o wait that is what you are trying to proove to me in your own religion which is why you are so lost)

YOU:
{{{{{{{{{{{{....... it is not a religion worth wasting time with and clearly you cannot do this without introducing words that no one knows. }}}}}}}}}}

What you are really saying is that you have destroyed your intellect and capacity for understanding and learning, and accomplished voiding your mind sufficiently of scripture, history, archaeology and geography, to adopt the ignorance of a 7th century desert dwelling illiterate, so that you can continue to follow a 7th century illiterate reprobate murdering, prisoner raping, thief.

ME:
No I have not destoryed by intellect it is the one gift god gave to mankind that no other creature has, but the FACT is that science, history, archaelogy and geography changes based on new descoveries and new advances in technology, and I am not speaking with reguards to these things when ti comes to god, I am speaking in terms of what is attributed to god. Because hisotry, science or what ever other dicipline you can think of will not be the reason I go to heaven or hell, it is by my application of the laws set forth by god that will determine my path to heaven or hell.

And yes my prophet was illeterate, and he produced a book that is unmatched by the most litereate of them all, that shows how blessed he was that god gave him what he gave no other. Alhamdu lillah I am a muslim and I subit my will to the will of the one who created my soul
__________________________

I have answered all of your questions multiple times, now i ask you very simply answer my question.

PROOVE YOUR RELIGION WITHOUT PROOVING HINDUISM TO ME.


i have asked you this multiple times and you are yet to respond, if you did respond in your last round of emails let me know and i will read them to find the proof of yours, if not i will not open the emails you sent so that i dont loose track of unresponded emails to you.

proove to me taht your relgiion is not simply hinduism. when you boil it down.
_________________________

YOU:
My religion is based on the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind through all of the prophets and witnesses that He chose. Are you suggesting that's what Hinduism is also based on?

ME:
No i am suggesting YOUR CONCEPT OF GOD is the concept of hinduism, that god comes on earth to deal with man, that is what i am talking about.


YOU:
That's because your question, in and of itself, makes no sense.
Try reading your own question and see if you can make any sense of it.

ME:
My question makes perfect sense to me, if you dont understand say that you dont understand there is no problem with that... my question is your concept of god, because you must admit the only difference in what you believe about god and what i believe about god is the concept of god, so explain to me this concept of god that you beleive in without prooving the relgion of my ancestors, because to me their religion is more consistient than yours. so explain to me how god is divided and not seperate, yet each part of him has a different experience.



YOU:
Which could all have been very well organized in the forum, if you weren't such a coward. Don't blame me for your fear.

ME:
no the reason i stop comming to your forum is that you would send me a book of discussion actually there were like 11 different topics you were discussing at the same time i dont have time for that, it is a waste of my time one topic at a time, even in the emails you started talking about nothing to do with the topics, we are talking about the sonship of adam you are talking about how many muhammad(saw) had sex with his wife what does that have to do with sons of god i have no idea, so no i dont fear you, you can take taht gas and well i think you know what to do with it.


YOU:
My religion comes from the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind that His people have followed for 3500 years.

ME:
show me in the OT where god commands that HE will die for your sins?



YOU:
As far as I know Hinduism comes from their own record - not from Scripture.

ME:
They do have a scripture it is called the VADAs, the Gita and other works are recorded history based on what they remember but the Vada is their actual scripture.



YOU:
Since I am relatively unfamiliar with Hinduism, I can only assume that you desire to find a similarity or parallel of some kind. If indeed that is what you so poorly attempted to communicate, then that perception is a produce of your own desires. Simply more of your blasphemy against Yahweh.
Are you saying you deny that Yahshua was born of a virgin?


ME:
well let me tell you about the religion of my ancestors, that i grew up very close to, they beleive that there is ONE god, who came in MANY forms on the face of the earth to help man, from every aspect, he came as a man, woman, elephant, and anything else you can possibly think of, god came in this form so that he can relate to his creation. Krishna one of the incarnations of god was born out of a virgin according to their scripture but that is the least of my concern with the question i ask you. because you see quite simply you cannot explain that god is one devine being and yet 3 DISTINCT persons without prooving to me taht hinduism is infact a religion that is EXACTLY The same, the only difference would be that you limit the incarnation of god to 1 they say no it is over 333 million incarnations.

and what kind of muslim would deny that jesus is born of a virgin, are you loosing your mind? how can i deny what is written in my quran? only an idiot would expect someone to deny their own faith that they are speaking in high reguards of, so if you think i am an idiot i think you are speaking to the wrong person. and what does that have to do with the conversation of explaining to me your concept of god? absolutly nothing. but this is the tactics of christians, a set of gas and nothing behind it.


YOU:
Now the question that you ran and hid from that addresses THE VERY FOUNDATION of the rituals of Mohammed's 7th century cult.

ME:
I did not run from any of your questions, infact i think i stated clearly that i will not read the other emails until you answer the simple question of what you believe when compared to hinduism because it is almost now a week that i asked this question and you have not yet answered me.


YOU:
What part of the Hajj and Umrah that Muslims engage in today, is not performed the very same way that the Arabian pagans performed these rituals, before Mohammed was ever born?

ME:
very simple after Tawaf we perfrom 2 rakaat salaat to god, never done before by the pagans. but again a waste of time answering you because you are not even eger to know the truth you just hurl accusations and divert the topic, because simply put you cannot proove your concepts of god without prooving the religion of my forefathers. Atleast they are consistient in their belief to them EVERYTHING is god, they understand the verse Adam is OF god better than you ever will
___________________

YOU:
I googled - hinduism christianity similarities - to see if this is where you were trying to go, and started with the first site.
http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/a/christianity.htm
The author demonstrates as much ignorance to Christianity as you nali.

"You may find it surprising that much of Christianity originated from India.]]]]]

Sure. Doesn't everybody know that Yahshua was a hindu from India, and THE Holy Land was India and not Israel? That's what Mohammed taught as well, didn't he nali?

ME:
Has nothing to do with where I am coming from in this discussion, I believe that jesus was a jew so obviously this has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.


YOU:
[[[[[ Indeed, over the centuries, numerous historians and sages have pointed out that not only has Hinduism had a predominant influence on Christianity, but that many of the Christian rites could be directly borrowed from Hindu (Vedic) India.]]]]]

What he actually means is that much of Roman Church heresy comes straight out of paganism (as did Constantine), and non-Catholic Christians would almost universally agree with this.

ME:
Again nothing to do with where I am coming from, but to answer your question it is Catholicism


YOU:
[[[[[French historian Alain Danielou had noticed as early as 1950 that "a great number of events which surround the birth of Christ - as it is related in the Gospels - ]]]]]

Which includes Yahshua's virgin birth which you, nali, seem to have taken to blaspheming against.

ME:
What have I blasphemed about jesus' birth, I clearly believe he was born of a virgin and I clearly believe that is is NOT god.

YOU:
[[[[[.......... the rigorous asceticism of certain early Christian sects, which reminds one of the asceticism of Jain and Buddhist saints; ..........]]]]]

Quick Yahoo
"...... "exercise" or "training" in the sense of athletic training) describes a lifestyle characterized by abstinence..."
At least you don't have to be associated with such a pagan thing as abstinence, since you are a Muslim, eigh nali!
ME:
Again has nothing to do with my question


YOU:

Is this what you were alluding to my friend? Are you incapable of embarrassment? You can see that your black stone veneration is far more parallel to Hinduism than to Christianity.
You just wish to pretend that Roman Catholic heresy is Christian, to embellish and further decorate your straw god, of your own creation.

I'll copy and paste this subject into the forum so we can organize our chat related to your question better. Maybe you can answer mine there too.

ME:
Again I am not talking about anything that someone else told me about, I am talking about from my experience as I grew up with hinduism and christiany and islam I was born a muslim but I have family members who are of these religion and as they are family we are close and I participated in their events, so I learned about their religion.

So now because you claimed my asking the question was vague, answer the question about WHAT IS YOUR CONCEPT OF GOD? And don't forget to include your trinitarian concepts, because clearly that is hiduism's grounds.... Customs etc are such a waste of time, because the thing that we are talking about is GOD.

Peter

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Re: naliakbar on Sonship of Jesus Christ
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2010, 09:20:43 AM »
And so it goes.
Naliakbar believes he can nullify hundreds of verses in Scripture...
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.0
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=316.0

....by removing a single verse from context from the very same Scripture, and trying to peddle an obvious and demonstrable misunderstanding of it.

Yet at the very beginning of this whole wasted exercise I showed him a single verse that he ignored rather than answer to, that not only explained his misunderstanding but also clarifies the hundreds of verses that he must necessarily deny, to follow the antichrist false prophet Mohammed and his stand-alone, 23 year, 7th century, record.

"I can clarify your misunderstanding with a single verse.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."