Author Topic: QURAN'S CONFUSION "REPAIRED" BY ABROGATION - NASKH  (Read 13398 times)

Pete

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QURAN'S CONFUSION "REPAIRED" BY ABROGATION - NASKH
« on: August 10, 2008, 10:09:09 AM »
Out of only 114 suras in the Quran, a whopping 71 are subject to abrogation. Also see thread textual history of the Quran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Kox5XNuyb8
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=96.0

The bible spans a period from Moses to Jesus over 16 centuries. Over that period mankind changed from desert dwelling nomads, to advanced nations that could follow religious laws from the Sanhedrin and the civil law of kings and emperors. Thus Jewish and Christian scholars understand that God's revelation to mankind was a progression that spanned 1600 years, as God steadily revealed Himself to mankind as WE changed, not God.

For more on progressive revelation please visit this link http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=935.0

Following from this link:

"One of Islam's classical reference books, written by a recognized Muslim scholar, deals in great detail with the subject. The title of the book is "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (The Abrogator and the Abrogated) by Abil-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn-Salama Abi-Nasr. The book goes through every chapter in the Quran and points in full detail to every verse that has been canceled and what verse replaced it. The author noted that out of 114 Surahs (chapters) of the Quran, there are only 43 Surahs that were not affected by this concept."

On the oldest Quran (penned in classical Arabic that is unlike the today's Quran):
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2576.0

"Gerd Puin, the world's leading specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Qur'anic paleography, studying the oldest manuscripts, speaks with disdain about the willingness of Muslims and non-Muslims alike, to accept Islamic dogma. He says: "The Qur'an claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or clear, but if you just look at it, you will see that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur'an is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur'an is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid."

Because the more peaceful beginnings of Mohammed's religion from when he lived in Mecca, are followed by his calls for Muslims to "smite the unbelievers at the neck" of his post-Medina days (after the Hijra when the Islamic calendar begins), Islamic scholars understand Mohammed's "revelations" to have been of progressive revelation as well. As we see in the surahs below, in order to explain away the confusion and abrogation of his "revelations", Mohammed himself declared it was because the Quran was revealed to him "in stages".

However the Qur'an's 71 suras that are subject to abrogation, out of only 114 total, occurring within the brief 23 year period of Mohammed's "revelations", demonstrates not divine revelation but rather the changing whims of it's author.

Al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh is the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, and title of the classic Islamic book, by esteemed Islamic scholar Abil-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn-Salama Abi-Nasr, that details all of the abrogated verses, and what they have been abrogated by. Good videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Kox5XNuyb8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z2R-KVLCeg&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLJjzw-dZJY

In Mohammed's own words:

(Yusuf Ali) Quran 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?

Hmmm.....not abrogated.....just........substituted.......for something better!
Does anyone really believe God to be that confused? Substituting is abrogation.
Like when Muhammad's followers say they believe in all the prophets, even as they must reject all of the prophets, to follow Muhammad.
Like when his followers say they believe in Jesus, even as they reject the whole subject of the Gospel, and the purpose for which the Messiah - the Lamb of God - was revealed to us.

Like the sura from Mohammed's later Medina days 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

as a better substitute for the verse waaaay back in Mohammed's early Mecca days in sura 2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Or again from the second to last sura (113th in order of "revelation"):
Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Or the declaration regarding discrepancy of 4.82 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
Contradicted by the declaration of throwing out earlier suras for later ones that contradict them!!! Even his sura on contradiction is contradicted!

Even Mohammed seems to have known how he would be viewed by those not indoctrinated into Islam:

Surah 16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

Perhaps part of the reason there are 73 Islamic sects by some counts: http://www.islamonline.net/discussione/thread.jspa?threadID=4989&tstart=0

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml

"In an attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote verses from the Quran that were written in the early days of the Islamic movement while Mohammed lived in Mecca. Those passages make Islam appear loving and harmless because they call for love, peace and patience. Such is a deception. The activists fail to tell gullible people that such verses, though still in the Quran, were nullified, abrogated, rendered void by later passages that incite killing, decapitations, maiming, terrorism and religious intolerance. The latter verses were penned while Mohammed's headquarters was based in Medina.

When speaking with people of Christianized/Western societies, Muslim activists deliberately hide a major Islamic doctrine called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that in situations wherein verses contradict one another, the early verses are overridden by the latter verses. The chronological timing in which a verse was written determines its authority to establish policies within Islam. Non-Muslims cannot afford to be ignorant about the full implications of the Abrogator and the Abrogated Doctrine (al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh). When Islamic spokesmen say that Islam is a religion of peace and that the Quran does not support such things as human rights infractions, gender bias and terrorism, they are lying. This means that the Western politicians and liberal journalists, who continually spout that Islam is a noble religion of peace, are in reality propagating a deception that they have been deceived into parroting."

Much more:
http://www.islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml

Another video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye5pPXrBl7g

A video detailing some specific verses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtUhb_9rp9A

Islam is it's own worst enemy. That's the problem with the opposite of truth. The tangled web of deception.
The Quran, of course, could never be "repaired". It is the repetitive record of the ramblings of a 7th century illiterate false prophet that is the opposite of what the God of the bible prescribes. Islam is antichrist. It is the only anti-another-religion religion.

Naskh - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvbkzewoyao

In depth:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/abrogatedverses.html

Evidences of the Bible - video playlist
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6B907B1E2434DE4C
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 11:57:23 AM by PeteWaldo »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
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Pete

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Re: QURAN'S CONFUSION "REPAIRED" BY RULE OF ABROGATION
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2008, 12:21:13 PM »
believergod33 wrote the following in this post:
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=123.msg357#msg357
Pete moved it here as this is a more appropriate thread.


believergod33: "(QURAN NEVER CHANGED FROM PERIOD OF MOHAMED TELL NOW)

ABOUT (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). in Quran
it was just A LICENSE FROM ALLAH to Mohamed , AND THIS HAPPENED during HIS LIFE. During HE compilation THE Quran.

and all the verses what you see it in the article all verses that were abrogated by the the other verse from allah too ,that's during Mohamed's life and compilation THE Quran.


Surah 2: 106
"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"



Surah 16 (AL-NAHL) Verse 101
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and God knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

 and all the  verses that were abrogated by another verses like what god say,and god is free with his words ,Mohamed just was a messenger of him,and this abrogated for the some verses that is another proof to you  about what i was say to you before,about what the way of god take with people to change his life and habits,he want to make this change come steep by steep throw the change verses,until Mohamed compilation THE Quran


and after the revelation and the Quran complete Mohamed say.
and it never happened any Abrogator for any verses  after that.

 Surah 5 (AL-MAEDA) Verse 3
Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than God; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me.)(((( This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you,)))) and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, God is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


BUT IN THE OTHER side,

 YOUR GOD cautious YOU IN THE BIBLE TO CHANGE OR DELETE ANY WORD FROM THE BIBLE  ((no wise pass from the law))
AND THIS IS NOT HAPPENED  during the life of JESUS TO APPROVE IT LIKE WHAT MOHAMED DID BY PERMISSION FROM OUR GOD.
Mt 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

MAT 24:35
35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

ISA:40 :8
8  The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

SO YOUR GOD emphasize TO NOT DELETE ANY WORD FROM HIS BOOK ,BUT OUR GOD ALLOW TO MOHAMED TO DO THAT during HIS life, DURING recording THE QURAN THERE IS NO ANY SIMILARITY BETWEEN TIES CASE.

you  don't have any capable to understand me,i am sorry for you.
GOD SAVE YOU MY FRIEND.  :'(   "
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 08:22:11 AM by Peter »
Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake
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Pete

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Re: QURAN'S CONFUSION "REPAIRED" BY RULE OF ABROGATION
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2008, 12:41:09 PM »
believergod33 wrote the following in this post:
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=123.msg357#msg357
Moved to this appropriate thread.


(QURAN NEVER CHANGED FROM PERIOD OF MOHAMED TELL NOW)

ABOUT (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). in Quran
it was just A LICENSE FROM ALLAH to Mohamed , AND THIS HAPPENED during HIS LIFE. During HE compilation THE Quran.

Hmmm. I see. Given license to change and abrogate God's words.
Like when he made up the sura so he could steal his step-son's wife?

and all the verses what you see it in the article all verses that were abrogated by the the other verse from allah too ,that's during Mohamed's life and compilation THE Quran.


Surah 2: 106
"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"



Surah 16 (AL-NAHL) Verse 101
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and God knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

 and all the  verses that were abrogated by another verses like what god say,and god is free with his words ,Mohamed just was a messenger of him,and this abrogated for the some verses that is another proof to you  about what i was say to you before,about what the way of god take with people to change his life and habits,he want to make this change come steep by steep throw the change verses,until Mohamed compilation THE Quran


and after the revelation and the Quran complete Mohamed say.
and it never happened any Abrogator for any verses  after that.

I see. So it was only abrogated in Mohammed's day. With a license.
When do you suppose the Al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh was written and by whom?

You seem to be saying, the reason the Quran is in such a mess, isn't because of Mohammed's mistakes, and isn't because it didn't even get written down until long after Mohammed's death, and it isn't because it got filled with error by traveling from mouth to ear to mouth to ear, and isn't because of the scribal mistakes, and it isn't because those scribal errors required the various versions of the Quran to be collected up and burned on 2 separate occasions, once by Bakr, and again by Uthman, http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=96.0 but rather that it was YOUR GOD'S INABILITY to get it right the first time!
It was your god's state of confusion.


What kind of a god is that, my friend?

Surah 5 (AL-MAEDA) Verse 3
Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than God; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me.)(((( This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you,)))) and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, God is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


BUT IN THE OTHER side,

 YOUR GOD .....

I'm glad that you make the clear distinction that the God of the Christians and Jews CANNOT POSSIBLY BE the same as the god of Mohammedanism.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=111.0

...cautious YOU IN THE BIBLE TO CHANGE OR DELETE ANY WORD FROM THE BIBLE  ((no wise pass from the law))
AND THIS IS NOT HAPPENED  during the life of JESUS TO APPROVE IT LIKE WHAT MOHAMED DID BY PERMISSION FROM OUR GOD.
Mt 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

MAT 24:35
35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

ISA:40 :8
8  The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

SO YOUR GOD emphasize TO NOT DELETE ANY WORD FROM HIS BOOK ,....

Indeed. The same thing goes for adding. This is how the Word of God concludes: Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.

Yet you deny the Word of God and instead accept a 7th century add-on. A new and OPPOSITE "revelation".

...BUT OUR GOD ALLOW TO MOHAMED TO DO THAT during HIS life, DURING recording THE QURAN THERE IS NO ANY SIMILARITY BETWEEN TIES CASE.

Well done! It would be hard indeed for someone to make a more compelling case than you just did that Mohammed was a false prophet.

you  don't have any capable to understand me,i am sorry for you.
GOD SAVE YOU MY FRIEND.  :'(


I understand and believe in the God of the Christians and Jews, through His inerrant 1600 year steady revelation of Himself to mankind which is God's Holy Word.

You understand and believe the 23 year 7th century abrogated verbal record of Mohammed, and Mohammedanism.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Who do you suppose THE MOST SUCCESSFUL false prophet in the history of mankind is? Let me give you a hint. His success has spanned 1400 years, and he lays claim to 1.5 billion people in the world today - 1/4 of mankind. HE TAUGHT THE OPPOSITE OF GOD'S WORD.

Now God's Word indicates that a single false prophet is exceptional. Who might qualify?

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Who do you suppose that verse is talking about? The tooth fairy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN-_20sjHVI

What is that "beast"?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=12.0
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm

Here is a passage that should terrify those in Islam that don't have a love of the truth:

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUc_9pVUiI4
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 01:10:59 AM by Pete »
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http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Peter

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Re: QURAN'S CONFUSION "REPAIRED" BY ABROGATION - NASKH
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2010, 08:06:03 AM »

Peter

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Re: QURAN'S CONFUSION "REPAIRED" BY ABROGATION - NASKH
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2010, 08:27:02 AM »
http://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/contra.html

CONTRADICTIONS WITHIN THE QURAN

      "Do they not consider the Quran? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancies." (Sura 4:82).

This verse is further amplified by the already quoted texts:

      "No change can there be in the Words of Allah (Sura 10:64)
      "There is none that can alter the Words of Allah (Sura 6:34)

We Christians believe this too. Let us assume for a moment that there is no discrepancy between the message of the Bible and the Quran, which, as we have seen, is not the case, and consider the Quran on its own.

The problem of abrogation.

      "When We substitute one revelation for another, - and Allah knows best what He reveals, - they say 'Thou art a forger: But most of them understand not. Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth."

      "None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar--Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?....Would you question your Apostle as Moses was questioned of old?" (Suras 16:101 and 2:106,108).

We should like to find out how a divine revelation can be improved. We would have expected it to have been perfect and true right from the start. Yusuf Ali tries to explain:

      "....it means that God's message from age to age is always the same, but that its form may differ according to the needs and exigencies of the time. Some commentators apply it also to the Ayat (revelation) of the Quran. There is nothing derogatory in this if we believe in progressive revelation.
      In Sura 3:7 we are told distinctly about the Quran, that some of its verses are basic and fundamental, and others are allegorical, and it is mischievous to treat the allegorical verses and follow them (literally)." (comm 107).

This is fully acceptable. God has revealed His Word progressively, the revelation being levelled at the comprehension and culture of the people to whom it was first given. Everybody will agree that an allegory should not be taken literally. But what about the law of 'mansukh' (=abrogated verse; please note Sura 2:106 does not speak of intellect, culture or progressive revelation with reference to scriptures given prior to Mohammed, but to Quranic verses only!) and 'nasikh' (=the verses that take the place of the mansukh verses)? .

We must recognize one important principle: If we want to know what a certain passage really means we have to make a proper exegesis. We have to establish what exactly the text in question was intended to say to the original hearers. How did they understand it? Only having done that can we interpret a text in today's situation without distortion. There are various possible ways of establishing the original meaning, but one should also look at the very old commentaries and see how they understood and interpreted the text.

The "Tafsir-i-Azizi" explains three kinds of abrogations (=cancellations):

i) where a verse has been removed from the Quran and another given in its place;

ii) where the injunction (command) is abrogated and the letters of the verse remain; !

iii) where both the verse and its injunction are removed from the text

Jalalu'd-Din, says that the number of abrogated verses has been variously estimated to range from 5 to 500 ("Dictionary of Islam", page 520)

In his 'Itqan' he furnished a list of 20 verses, which are acknowledged by all commentators to be abrogated ("Dictionary of Islam", page 520).

Just a few be mentioned here:

      The Qibla (prayer direction) was changed from Jerusalem to Mecca (Sura 2:142-144);

      The division of inheritance left by parents or other relatives according to Sura 4:7 had to be equal (a share and a share which has to be determined). This was abrogated and replaced by verse 11, where it is commanded that males must get double the share of females.

      The night prayer performed by reciting the Quran ought to be more or less half the time of the night (Sura 73:2). This was changed to as much as may be easy for you (verse 20).

      The treatment of adulteresses is to be life imprisonment (Sura 4:15), which was changed to flogging with 100 strokes (Sura 24:2). This despite the leniency prescribed for homosexuals (Sura 4:16) on repenting.

      The retaliation in cases of crime, particularly murder, was to be confined to people of equal rank (slave for slave, free for free etc.) (Sura 2:178) This is in disagreement with Sura 5:48 and Sura 17:33 where retaliation is allowed against the murderer only.

      The Jihad or Holy War was forbidden in the sacred months (Sura 9:5) but is allowed, even encouraged in verse 36 which replaces the former.

      "Sura 2:106 occurs immediately before a series of sweeping changes, or rather modifications, introduced by Muhammad in both the ritual and the legal spheres.The verse thus precedes a change in the Qibla (vss. 115,177,124-151); in the pilgrimage rites (vs. 158); in the dietary laws (vss. 168-l74); in the law relating to talio (vss. 178-179); in bequests (vss. 180-182); in the fast (vss. 182-187); and again in the pilgrimage (vss. 191-203).

      Similarly, Sura 16:101 is followed by allusions to modifications in the dietary laws (vss 114-119), and in the Sabbath laws (vs.124)" ("The Collection of the Quran" by John Burton).

      Elaborating on this we note that the fast is compulsory "but if any of you is ill or on a journey, the prescribed number (should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (with hardship) is a ransom, the feeding of one, that is indigent." (Sura 2:184).

      "'Here one can hardly escape the conclusion that the first verse (i.e. 184) allows a rich man to buy himself out of the fast." ("Islam" by A. Guillaume). The next verse is said to replace the former. It allows no compensation of any kind for the fast.

      In verse 180 of the same Sura "it is prescribed, when death approaches any of you, if he leaves any goods, that he make a bequest to parents and next of kin....". This is said to be replaced by Sura 4:11, according to which a double portion of inheritance falls to males compared to that of females.

      The much discussed "verses of the sword": "....fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (or war)." (Sura 9:5) and "....when you meet the unbelievers (in fight) cut off their necks..." (Sura 47:4) are "said to have cancelled no less than 124 verses which enjoined toleration and patience." (A. Guillaume).

To us it is surprising to find the mansukh and nasikh verses often near to each other. We judge these to be cases of interpolation.

As stated earlier, we do believe in progressive revelation. The Old Covenant of the Law, as given to Moses, was superseded by the New Covenant of grace, which Jesus introduced. But these developments took place over a considerable time (1 500 years) with many prophetic warnings and predictions in between, so that no arbitrary action may be assumed on the side of God. In the light of this we find it unacceptable that within a space of 20 years a need for change or correction can become necessary. This surely suggests that God is either not all-knowing or else the recorder made a correction.

There are other verses which further add to the confusion:

      "If we wished, we could make away with what we have revealed to you!" (Sura 17:86). "We shall teach you to recite it (i.e. the Quran) and you will not forget - except that Allah wills (Sura 87:6-7).

Why should anything be forgotten of an eternal revelation? To "substitute for it something better"? We do admit that an inspired man can err at times, but an inspired book (nazil) cannot!

Zarkasi explains the above concept more deeply. He states (vol. I p. 235):

      "The 'naskh' (sic) of the wording and recital occured by means of God's causing them to forget it. He withdrew it from their memories, while commanding them to neglect its public recital and its recording in the mushaf. With the passage of time, it would quite disappear like the rest of God's revealed Books which He mentions in the Quran, but nothing of which is known today. This can have happened either during the Prophet's life so that, when he died, the forgotten material was no longer being recited as part of the Quran; or it might have happened after the death of the Prophet. It would still be extant in writing, but God would cause them to forget it. He would then remove it from their memories. But, of course, the naskh of any part of the revelation after the death of the Prophet is not possible." ("The Collection of the Quran" by John Burton p.97).

We suggest that Allah could have spared us a lot of confusion, doubt and explaining, had He given the better text right from the beginning.

      "There was a series of Hadiths designed expressly to give the impression that Muhammad had forgotten part of the revelations. The reports were specific and detailed enough to identify the actual wording of the verses in question. Anas is reported in the two Sahih's (i.e. al-Bukhari and Muslim) as declaring: There was revealed concerning those slain at Bi'r Ma'una a Quran verse which we recited until it was withdrawn: "Inform our tribe on our behalf that we have met our Lord. He has been well pleased with us and has satisfied our desires.' ("al-Itqan by Jalal al Din).

      'Abdullah b. al Zubair therefore asked 'Uthman what had possessed him to include Sura 2:240 in the 'mushaf' (document or canon), when he knew it to have been abrogated by Sura 2:234. 'Because', he replied 'Uthman, 'I know it to be part of the Quran text.' '(ibid.). ("The Collection of the Quran" by John Burton).

A further problem arises from the fact that there is by no means any certainty which verses are mansukh and which nasikh, since the order in which the Quran was written down is not chronological, but according to the length of the Suras. However, even the Suras were not necessarily given in one piece. It happened that a certain portion of a Sura was given, and the next given text would be directed by Mohammed to be added to another Sura, and later again another addition was made to the first again, etc. The Hadis gives no conclusive information about the chronological order either, so that strictly speaking, there is no means of determining which of two disagreeing texts is mansukh, and which nasikh.

In any case we Christians see in this whole subject just a theological gimmick to "explain" contradictions. The quotation:

      "No change can there be in the Words of Allah" and "There is none that can alter the Words of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those Apostles." or "the other Apostles also said so." (Suras 10:64 and 6:34).

is contradicted by all those Muslims who claim that the Bible which is admitted to be a revealed book, has been altered and corrupted.

To underline our point let us just look at two passages of the Quran that have not been reconciled in terms of the law of abrogation.

In Sura 41:9-12 we read that the world was created in eight days, in Sura 7:54 we are told it were six days. It is, we suppose, up to the believer to make up his mind which of the two he will accept.

QUESTION: Must we assume that God is inconsistent? Knowing all things, such contradiction surely does not originate from God?

Problems regarding the consistency of Revelation.

The Quran is inconsistent regarding commitments on the part of Allah on which the believer can reckon or on which he can build his life. Commitments that are given are contradicted elsewhere:

      "Allah has inscribed for himself (the rule of) mercy"

or

      "Allah has prescribed for himself as law to act merciful" (Sura 6:12).

is contradicted in the same Sura: (verses 35-39):

      "If it were Allah's will, he would gather them into true guidance.... Whom Allah willeth he leaves to wander, whom he willeth, he placeth on the way that is straight".

As we shall see (pp 21ff.), the Muslim's hope rests on that despairing word:

      "IF it pleases Allah."

This is striking, for even in the Old Testament the believer was aware of the Law of cause and Effect. Once a believer broke any of God's Laws he was cut-off from God, and was lost and perishing. But if he atoned therefor in repentance according to God's prescribed ordinance (the sacrifice) his sin was forgiven. God had committed Himself to it. This is even further elaborated in the New Testament:

      "If we confess our sins (while we have fellowship with God: vs. 6), He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:9).

We see a definite regression from this standard in the Quran.

We also find it strange to read:

      "Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, 'we are Christians'." (Sura 5:85)

This is supported to some extent by an explanatory note in the "Mishkat" (IV page 103, note 2380) where we are told that "nearly two-thirds of paradise" will be filled with "the followers of the Holy Prophet and the followers of other prophets will form one-third." In strange contrast to this are the words of Sura 5:51

      "Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends."

What about being together in Paradise? The reason is just as strange:

      "They (Jews and Christians) are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

It can hardly be said that Jews and Christians have ever protected each other, except that they agree on the authenticity of the Old Testament.

It is said of Mohammed that he was the first to bow down to Allah (in Islam) (Sura 6:14, 163, 39:12). But it is also said of Abraham, his sons and Jacob that they were Muslims (Sura 2:132), and of all earlier prophets who brought 'books' (i.e. Moses, David and Jesus) (Sura 28:52-53). Again it is reported of the disciples of Jesus that they were Muslims (Sura 3:52).

All these we view as contradictions. Some would not be of a serious nature, were it not for the claim that the Quran is "nazil" or "brought down" from heaven to Mohammed without the touch of human hand - except for the act of writing itself.

QUESTION: Is there any uncontradicted statement in the Quran on which a Mulsim can rely to have eternal life in heaven?

http://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/contra.html

mightymouse

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Re: QURAN'S CONFUSION "REPAIRED" BY ABROGATION - NASKH
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2010, 03:27:13 PM »
Herein lies a clear difference between the Eternal True God and Allah. Being without beginning and without end there is no need to substitute to cover up for the weaknesses or lack in previous Revelation. It is true that God do can do anything . . . that is anything but be wrong. Speaking of that Jesus never once said, I'm sorry. Why, He never made a mistake (being the Eternal Son of the True and Living God).
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Peter

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Re: QURAN'S CONFUSION "REPAIRED" BY ABROGATION - NASKH
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 03:37:38 PM »
Herein lies a clear difference between the Eternal True God and Allah. Being without beginning and without end there is no need to substitute to cover up for the weaknesses or lack in previous Revelation. It is true that God do can do anything . . . that is anything but be wrong. Speaking of that Jesus never once said, I'm sorry. Why, He never made a mistake (being the Eternal Son of the True and Living God).
Indeed! And welcome to the forum mightymouse! :)


PeteWaldo

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Re: QURAN'S CONFUSION "REPAIRED" BY ABROGATION - NASKH
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2016, 08:39:40 AM »
Interesting that Muhammadans would want to draw attention to Edward Gibbon who correctly characterized the Quran as:
"Instead of a perpetual and perfect measure of the divine will, the fragments of the Koran were produced at the discretion of Mahomet; each revelation is suited to the emergencies of his policy or passion; and all contradiction is removed by the saving maxim that any text of Scripture is abrogated or modified by any subsequent passage." – Edward Gibbon.