Islam / Muslim - Christian Dialogue Forum

General Category => Islam - General => Topic started by: Peter on February 24, 2010, 07:11:58 AM

Title: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA (Kaaba)
Post by: Peter on February 24, 2010, 07:11:58 AM
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/index.htm
    *  The Classical Writers and Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/classical.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * Archaeology  and Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Bible and Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/mecca_bible.htm)- By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Kaabah and the Arabian Star Worship (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/star.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Role of the Temple at Mecca in the Jinn Religion and in the Arabian Family Star Religion (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/roleoftemple.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The True Story of the Construction of the Temple of Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari

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Fron the Religion Research Institute
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm
(Pete's bolding and highlighting for lazy readers)

THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA

By Dr. Rafat Amari

The True dates for the Construction of the Temple of Mecca, the Digging of the Well of Zamzam, and the Transfer of the Black Stone to Mecca

Islamic claims that Abraham and Ishmael founded the temple in the city of Mecca are recognized as false, when we study the black Stone, which was the heart of the temple.

    Abraham never went to where Mecca was eventually built, nor did his son, Ishmael, or Ishmael's son, Nabaioth. Despite these facts, Ibn Ishak, Mohammed's biographer, claimed Abraham was responsible for building the temple at Mecca, and that it was then run by Ishmael, and eventually Nabaioth. The story, created by Ibn Ishak and his companions, goes on to say that after Nabaioth, the tribe of Jurhum, which they claim inhabited Mecca at the time of Abraham, took the responsibility to serve the Temple at Mecca. According to the story, they served until the tribe of Khuzaa'h came from Yemen. This was after the dam at Ma'rib began to show signs of damage and drove them away. The story continues that, when the tribe of Khuzaa'h came to Mecca, they defeated Jurhum. Jurhum then left Mecca to hide the black Stone of the temple and two golden gazelles. They hid them in the water spring called Zamzam, then covered the spring, the stone and the gazelles with dust so they would escape detection. [1] The date these things supposedly happened is critical.  According to the stories, Jurhum lived in Mecca until the Ma'rib dam was damaged, and the tribe of Khuzaa'h left Yemen. We know these things occurred around the year 150 A.D.

Islamic tradition is illogical when it talks about Jurhum and the hiding of a spring of water and the Black Stone.

If Jurhum's story were true, why did the classical authors (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/classical.htm), who visited and wrote about western Arabia mention all the tribes who were living there, even the tiny ones, but never once mention Mecca or the tribe of Jurhum? Second, after being defeated, how could Jurhum bury two precious golden gazelles and a revered stone belonging to Mecca's temple without any of the inhabitants noticing?   Any tribe leaving Mecca would surely take its golden treasure and not bury it in a public place, well-known to all.  And this spring of water was the only spring in Mecca. Third, the black Stone was  a revered stone. It is not easy to move it from its location in the temple, without people noticing where it was placed. According to Islamic claims, the war erupted over who should be responsible for the temple. How could a defeated Jurhum tribe succeed in moving the stone without the winning Khuzaa'h tribe intervening, or at least noticing where the stone had been hidden? The fourth argument concerns the spring of water itself. If it existed in western Arabia, its location would be important to remember. After all, water was especially important for the Arabians living in the desert. Islamic tradition claims this spring existed since the time of Abraham. If it were miraculously brought into existence when the angel Gabriel gave water to Hagar and her child, Ishmael, then its existence would have been known, not just in Mecca, but in many other cities around Mecca. Bedouins would have come to the spring to water their sheep.  Area inhabitants would have come to refresh themselves. No one could hide the spring, even if it were possible to cover it with dust.

    The story of Jurhum hiding items in the spring during the 2nd century A.D. continues by claiming that Abdel Mutaleb, the grandfather of Mohammed, rediscovered the spring near the end of the 5th century. We can only conclude that the spring never existed before the time of Abdel Mutaleb,  and that digging by  finally the Mecchians found underground water, which eventually became a spring. This phenomenon of digging to find water which comes in the form of a spring is common in the Middle East. To claim that a spring existed in a city for 2,500 years before Jurhum succeeded in covering it for another three centuries is an impossible assertion,  since the springs of Arabia were significantly more important to the Bedouins than the Red Sea itself. You may hide the sea from the eyes of thirsty tribes, but you cannot hide a spring and its location for that amount of time.

    It is also impossible to believe that the black Stone was hidden for three or four centuries. The stone was considered the main shrine, or sacred element, in each temple, called Kaabah in Arabic. This revered stone, which represented the moon, was considered to be divine. The worship of the Arabian Star Family with Allah, who was the moon as its head, revolved around the black stone. Ellat, Allah's wife, was the sun, and al-'Uzza and Manat, his daughters, represented two planets. The Muslims believe the black Stone divinely came from Allah, who was the moon before the planet Venus replaced it in Allah's title. How could a black stone, greatly worshipped and revered by the people, be hidden while they were fighting to preserve the prestige they found in serving it?  It is implausible to suggest that they could hide their greatly-worshipped stone, without any of the people who chased the defeated Jurhum noticing where it was hidden, especially when the place where it was claimed to be hidden was the spring of water from which they drank every day of the battle. Hiding the worshipped stone in such a way is more implausible than hiding the spring of water itself.

    The story of the black Stone has some important implications. The black Stone was not in existence near Mecca until, perhaps, the end of the 5th A.D. century. That's why Islamic tradition tried to justify the absence of the stone by inventing implausible stories. Therefore, we can estimate that the black stone, which was the main element of worship in all Kaabahs of Arabia, was brought  from another area - most probable Yemen - toward the end of the 5th century A.D.

Asa'd Abu Karb was the True Builder of Kaabah in the Beginning of the 5th century A.D.

It is said that prior to the construction of the Kaabah, a tent existed on the spot where it was built.[ii][2] The tribe of Khuzaa'h came from Yemen around the 2nd  century A.D.  In the 4th century A.D., they moved toward the area where Mecca was eventually built. Since they didn't find a temple there in which to worship, they pitched their tent in a field.


    Information from the writers of the 8th century A.D., who depended on information from the time of Mohammed, indicates the Kaabah was built at the beginning of  the 5th century A.D. by a  Himyarite pagan Yemeni leader named Asa'd Abu Karb. He is also called  Abu Karb Asa'd, and he reigned in Yemen from 410 to 435 A.D.[iii][3]  The fact that the Islamic historians admit that Asa'd Abu Karb was the first ruler in history to dress the Kaabah is a significant indicator that he was the true builder of the Kaabah.[iv][4]  Dressing a temple in Arabia was the second stage of its construction. It included decoratively finishing the inside walls, putting carpets on the walls and the floor, and adding textured and crocheted items on various parts of the interior building. (Arabians will not pray in a temple which is not dressed.) Asa'd Abu Karb used Amer from Azed to build the inside walls of the Kaabah.[v][5] (Azed is a tribe which came from Yemen at the same time Khuzaah's tribe came.)  So Asa'd Abu Karb, the first to build and dress the Kaabah, must have first built it when there was just a tent where the Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h worshipped. Asa'd Abu Karb, also called Tubb'a, occupied the city of Yathrib before coming to Mecca.[vi][6]  It seems he found many temples in Yathrib, but when he came to Mecca, he didn't find any temple there. Because the inhabitants were recent emigrants from Yemen, Asa'd Abu Karb built them a modest temple in the Yemeni style. He did this to connect the people with himself. He also wrote a poem in which he described the sun setting in a spring of black mud, something Mohammed included in the Qur'an.

Additions by Quraish to the Building Which Asa'd Abu Karb Built

Quraish, the tribe Mohammed came from, later occupied the city. They acquired a black stone from Yemen so that their temple would be like all the other Kaabahs which, according to the worship of the Star Family of Arabia, were built around a black stone. Family Star worship started in Yemen, the place from which the Quraish emigrated. The first Kaabah built by Asa'd Abu Karb, had a wood roof. That roof burned, so next they used wood carried by a Byzantine ship, which stopped on the coast of the Red Sea at a place called  "al-Shaebieth". The owner of the ship was a Coptic Egyptian named Bachum. He sold the wood to them and made the roofing for the Kaabah.[vii][7]  Later, when Mohammed was still young, further elements were added to the simple building.[viii][8]

    These facts about the construction of the temple at Mecca should cause Muslims to question all that Ibn Ishak and his companions said about the city, in their attempt to back Mohammed's claim in the Qur'an that the temple was built by Abraham and Ishmael.

YEMENI RESPONSIBILITY IN BUILDING THE TEMPLE OF MECCA

The Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h built the city of Mecca in the 4th century A.D. Yemeni pagan religious worship has left its fingerprints all over the temple, showing that Abraham and Ishmael could not have built it.

We will discuss why the marks of Yemeni worship characterized the temple of Mecca. The sayings and customs of Mohammed are called Hadith. "Sahih Muslim" and "Sahih Buchari" are considered the main authoritative books which contain the words or Hadith of Mohammed. In those books, we read about Mohammed's custom  to embrace and kiss two stones, "the Yemenite Rukun" and "the Black Stone".  Ibn Abbas the cousin of Mohammed and the reporter of his authoritative Hadith, says that Mohammed customarily embraced the two Yemeni Rukuns. By "Yemeni Rukuns," he meant the Black Stone and the other stone, also called Rukun.[ix][9] From this we know that Kaabeh had two main elements, also called Rukuns, which were considered sacred. Those were the stones around which the Kaabeh was built. These were the true elements revered by the inhabitants of Mecca and by Mohammed. 

    It seems that the Black Stone was brought from Yemen at the time of Abdel Mutaleb, the grandfather of Mohammed. Islamic tradition claimed it was hidden with the spring of Zamzam for centuries prior to Mohammed.  I demonstrated previously that such a claim could not be true. The fact is that Mohammed and Islamic tradition endeavor to connect the pagan Yemeni worship of the ancestors of Mohammed, which transferred from Yemen to the Temple of Mecca, with Ishmael and Abraham, even though there are historical evidences that point to the contrary. We will look at some of them.

    First, the confirmed date of the construction of the city of Mecca is sometime after the 4th century A.D.  Abu Karb Asa'd was the first to consecrate the Kaabah, which reveals that he was the builder of the Kaabah. He did this during his reign in Yemen, which was between 410 and 435 A.D. The two Rukuns, or stones, which were the main elements of worship in the temple, were of Yemeni origin. The date on which the Black Stone first appeared in Mecca was at the time of Mohammed's grandfather, sometime between 495 and 520 A.D. Though Islamic tradition was aware of these facts, people invented unreliable stories to fill the historical gaps. I've already proved such stories are not logical, and are easily refutable.

     An important factor in tracing Yemeni responsibility for constructing the Temple at Mecca, and in establishing the true date of construction for such Temple, is found in the Himyarite kingdom of Yemen. Abu Karb Asa'd, the reigning monarch of Himyarite kingdom, tried to extend his empire over central western Arabia in order to control the spice route from Yemen to North Arabia, and then to the Fertile Crescent. Abu Karb Asa'd, also called Tubb'a, occupied the cities of central western Arabia at the beginning of the 5th century A.D. Among those cities were Mecca and Yathrib, also called al-Medina. The occupier's strategy was to bind these cities to his kingdom by reinforcing the Yemeni religious system which the inhabitants of Mecca and Yathrib were already embracing. The inhabitants of Mecca had emigrated from Yemen, so they were of Yemeni origin.  Yathrib was formed by two Yemeni tribes, Oas and Khazraj. They, too, emigrated to Yathrib after the dam at Yemen was damaged around 150 A.D. These tribes were living with two Jewish tribes, Beni Kharithah and Beni Nathir, which were already established. Abu Karb Asa'd was of Yemeni origin. He built the Kaabeh at Mecca to reinforce his rule over the city, and to show favor to the citizens of Mecca who were without a temple of worship. They, like him, shared the same pagan beliefs.

Tubb'a's ideas of Jewish and Yemeni pagan myths and their influence on the Arabians of central western Arabia, and consequently on Mohammed.

Tubb'a also tried to build bridges with the Jewish community in Yathrib. He learned their religious thoughts and rites. He learned the Jewish myths, such as the legend of the hoopoe bird  that announced the kingdom of Saba to Solomon. This myth came from the Jewish mythological book called the Second Targum of Esther. Mohammed incorporated the same myth into the Qur'an.

    To accomplish his ends, Tubb'a brought two Jewish rabbis to Yemen.[10]  They added to his knowledge by teaching him many Judaic religious rites and myths, enabling him to mix various items in his own Yemeni pagan background with Jewish mythology and religious tradition. For example, he combined Arabian star worship with Jewish myths.  With mixed knowledge like this, he thought he could control the regions in central western Arabia, where people of Jewish and Arabian origin lived. He then claimed himself to be a prophet, expounding many thoughts which the Yemeni people considered indisputable about the sun, the earth and the cosmos. At Mecca, in an attempt to convince his listeners that he was a prophet, he taught that the sun sets in a spring of black mud.[xi][11] This myth, too, was incorporated by Mohammed in the Qu'ran.

    After his death, Tubb'a's claim left an impression on many groups, even on groups that lived until the time of Mohammed. Mohammed considered him as a Muslim and almost as a prophet.[12] There have been myths about Tubb'a among the Arabians. Al-Taberi attributed victories to him in China and Tibet. This is unhistorical, but it shows how great an impact Tubb'a left on the Arabians at the time of Mohammed,  to the point that many considered him to be a prophet.[13]

The Kaabah of Mecca was built for the Arabian Star worship and it shares all the characteristic of the Kaabahs that were built for their worship.

The fact that the temple at Mecca was built as a Kaabah for Arabian star worship is shown in many ways. First, it was built in the same architectural style as other Kaabahs in Arabia. They were all temples for the same Arabian Family Star religion, in which Allah is considered the head and Ellat is his wife. All the Kaabahs had a  Black Stone as the most revered element. It represented the star deity in Arabia. Many of the black stones were meteorites which the Arabs saw descending to earth. They thought the meteorites they were envoys from the moon, which was considered to be Allah himself. This is before that title was given to Venus, who replaced the moon as head of the star family.

    Another thing which shows that the Kaabah of Mecca  was built as a temple for Arabian star worship is that the Kaabah of Mecca reflects members of the star family in many of its elements. The main door of the Kaabah was called  "the door of worshippers of the sun,"[xiv][14] the wife of Allah.

Mohammed confirmed that the origin of the Kaabah's faith was Yemeni.

The role of Yemeni religious paganism in building the temple at Mecca, and its religious nature, cannot be hidden. Even Mohammed recognized the origin of the religious system of Mecca as Yemeni. Mohammed uttered many Hadiths about the Yemeni origin of the Kaabah faith.  Such teachings are reported in the authoritative Hadith, the book of al-Bukhari, in which Mohammed says: "the faith is Yemeni and the wisdom is Yemeni." In another Hadith, he says: "the doctrine and jurisprudence is Yemeni."[xv][15] Therefore, not just the Rukuns, the sacred stones in the Kaabah, were from Yemen, but also religious laws, doctrine and faith are Yemeni. It is undeniable proof that the temple of Mecca was constructed by a Yemeni leader according to a Yemeni pagan style and specification. He established Yemeni religiosity at Mecca, and it was known in other parts of Arabia. How, then, could Abraham have built the Kaabeh, if what we have learned about its construction is true? How did the Black Stone come from heaven, and how did Abraham sacrifice on it, and build the Kaabah around it, if the stone was not in Mecca before the 5th century A.D.?    How could Mohammed's teaching come from  Allah through the angel Gabriel and still be of Yemeni origin?

    The important Egyptian scholar, Tah Hussein, has criticized Islamic tradition for linking the construction of Mecca's temple to Abraham and Ishmael.[xvi][16]  Tah said :

The case for this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. Islam exploited it for religious reasons."[xvii][17]

If Muslims search diligently in history, like this great Egyptian scholar did, they will reach the same conclusion.

Establishing the Date the Tribe of Khuzaa'h Built Mecca

Many historical elements help us determine the true date Mecca was built.  One major factor is the damage which occurred to the dam of Ma'rib in Yemen around the year 150 A.D. It caused the emigration of many families and tribes from Yemen to the north. One of these families was the family of Amru bin Amer, a Yemeni individual whose progeny fostered many tribes. Among them was Khuzaa'h, which settled in central western Arabia.  Later, they built the city of Mecca.

    Other tribes which came from  Amru bin Amer were Oas and Khazraj. They settled in Yathrib, also called al-Medina, where the Jewish tribes of Beni Kharithah and Beni Nathir were already located.

    From the writings of Tabari, the famous Arabic historian, we understand that this happened at approximately the same time the Lakhmids moved from Yemen to Mesopotamia. It is also the same time Amru bin Amer, the father of Khuzaa'h, moved from Yemen.[xviii][18] The Lakhmids came from Yemen in the 2nd  century A.D. They lived in a region of Mesopotamia later known to be the city of Hira. Later the Persians used them to protect Persian borders with the Byzantine Empire, which was dominating Syria. The first Lakhmid king was Amr I bin Adi, who ruled from 265-295 A.D.[xix][19] The serious collapse of the dam of Ma'rib precipitated the emigration of tribes such as Ghassan, which settled in the Byzantine border; Shammar which inhabited the Syrian Desert; and other tribes which emigrated to the north of Arabia and the Fertile Crescent.[xx][20]  Some of these tribes were related to each other because they were progeny of Amru bin Amer.[xxi][21] Other tribes who came out of Yemen at the time the dam collapsed were Oas and Khazraj. They went to live in al-Medina. Ozd al-Sarat went to al-Sarat, a location near Orfeh, which is near where Mecca was built. The tribe of Khuzaa'h inhabited a place called Mur, also called Mur al-Thahran,[xxii][22] another place near where Mecca was built.[xxiii][23]

Mecca was Built by Khuzaa'h as a Desolate Station on the Spice Route

There was no city named Mecca in that area; otherwise, Khuzaa'h and Ozd would have inhabited it, as Oas and Khazraj inhabited the city of Yathrib. For more than a century and a half Khuzaa'h remained in the area near where Mecca was later built. They then decided to build a station on the caravan route where traders could rest and conduct business.  If Mecca had existed before Khuzaah's emigration from Yemen, Mecca would have been the city to which they would go to search out a living, even as their sister tribes, Oas and Khazraj, went to Yathrib to benefit from commerce and agricultural activities of the Jewish tribes there. But neither Khuzaa'h nor Ozd, as new emigrants in semi-deserted areas around the area where Mecca eventually built, found a city to host them when they left Yemen. They waited more than 170-200 years before building a city on the caravan route, which became a station for the caravans competing with Yathrib, which was about 200 miles away. The station they built, was called Mecca.

    It is important to note that none of the tribes who came from Yemen inhabited Mecca. If Mecca was in existence at the time the dam was seriously damaged, around the year 150 A.D.,  we would find many tribes locating in Mecca, because it is closer to Yemen than Yathrib is to Yemen. But, because the area where Mecca was eventually built was desolate and had no cities, it induced the tribes of Ozd and Khuzaa'h to live there. They did so, although they  previously lived in a civilized city in Yemen which was Ma'rib, the capital of Saba. This is an important argument which points out that Mecca could not have existed before Khuzaa'h built the city in the 4th century A.D.

    Let's review these historical facts. I've shown that the Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h built the city of Mecca in the 4th century A.D. We've seen the connection between the temple of Mecca and Yemeni pagan religious worship.  All this shows that the claim of Islam about Abraham and Ishmael building the temple of Mecca contradicts the true historical facts. Building faith on the sand is unwise. I pray that our Muslim friends will return to true faith as found in history and announced in the Bible.  In the Bible they can find a solid foundation, documented in the writings of the prophetic books, and considered by historians to be the accurate resource for ancient history.

   Religion Research Institute -Home (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/text_index.htm)

[1] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 524

[ii][2] Al-Azruqi, Akhbar Mecca, 1/6

[iii][3] A. Jamme, W.F., Sabaean Inscriptions from Mahram Bilqis (Ma'rib), the Johns Hopkins Press, Baltimore, 1962, Volume III, page 387; there are also Texts numbered by G. Ryckmans after himself, G. Ryckmans, Le Museon 66 (1953), pages 363-7, p1.V; quoted by  K.A. Kitchen , Documentation For Ancient Arabia, Part I, Liverpool University Press, 1994, page 219

[iv][4] Al-Azruqi, Akhbar Mecca, 1:173; Yaqut al-Hamawi, Mujam al-Buldan, 4:463

[v][5] Ibn Saad, Tabakat, 1, page 64

[vi][6] Ibn Hisham 1, page 20

[vii][7] Halabieh 1, page 235; Ibn Hisham I, page 157; al-Azruqi, Akhbar Mecca I, page 104

[viii][8] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 526

[ix][9] Sahih Muslim 9, page 15

[xi][11] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 429

[xii][12] Halabieh I, page 280

[xiii][13] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, pages 331, 332, 360

[xiv][14] Halabieh I, page 236

[xv][15] Al-Bukhari 5, page 122; Halabieh I, page 259

[xvi][16] Quotation by Alessandro Bausani, L'Islam, Garzanti Milano, 1980, page 208

[xvii][17] Quoted in Mizan al-Islam by Anwar al-Jundi, page 170 ;Behind the Veil, page 184

[xviii][18] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, pages 431 and 360 also mentioned the emigration to the area of Hira in Mesopotamia of tribes descended from Maad bin Adnan from Yemen.

[xix][19] K.A. Kitchen, Documentation For Ancient Arabia, Part I , Liverpool University Press, 1994, page 251

[xx][20] James Montgomery, Arabia and the Bible, University of Pennsylvania Press, Philadelphia, 1934, page 126; Montgomery also quotes Philby, The Heart of Arabia, II, page 97

[xxi][21] Ibn Hisham I, page 12

[xxii][22] Ibn Hisham I, page 13

[xxiii][23] The commentators on Ibn Hisham I, page 13


Fron the Religion Research Institute
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm
Title: Re: MECCA, THE KAABA, AND THE BLACK STONE
Post by: Peter on February 24, 2010, 11:03:07 AM
Some interesting older photos of the Kaaba included in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Jr9X3oqlw
Title: Re: MECCA, THE KAABA, AND THE BLACK STONE
Post by: Peter on February 24, 2010, 01:33:45 PM
Interesting search for - Dr Rafat Amari
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Dr.+Rafat+Amari&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&fp=c26c79a56c95bda8

I notice a dearth of the usual cacophony of Muslims uploading websites refuting Dr. Amari with the usual "...liar, liar..." stuff, like they try (pitifully) with Prophet of Doom's author Craig Winn.

The Ahnaf impact on Muhammed
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=105

http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/index.htm
    *  The Classical Writers and Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/classical.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * Archaeology  and Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Bible and Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/mecca_bible.htm)- By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Kaabah and the Arabian Star Worship (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/star.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Role of the Temple at Mecca in the Jinn Religion and in the Arabian Family Star Religion (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/roleoftemple.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The True Story of the Construction of the Temple of Mecca (http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm) - By Dr. Rafat Amari
Title: Re: MECCA, THE KAABA, AND THE BLACK STONE
Post by: Peter on February 25, 2010, 08:42:22 PM
In YouTube this is the only information I have been presented thus far

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html

When we look at a reasonable source,

http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/classical.htm

we find that even the vague claims that "...temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians." was in no way a reference to the Kaaba, or Mecca ever having existed, but in fact the quote was removed from context and was Agatharchides (and others) Description of a Temple Along the Gulf of Aqaba of the coastal tribe of the Batmizomaneis.
Even Mohammed's tribe went on annual pilgrimage to a holier place than Mecca, long after the Kaaba was built.

The first link is ridiculous pile of presumptions that go far beyond anything like a stretch.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on June 08, 2010, 03:50:12 PM
Your questions are absurd, your comments raving lunacy and your conclusions are just plain vanity (insanity)

I cant eevn start to correct all your errors of judgement, You say you want to seek the truth but have the talent to distort every thing that is not from the archives of the Roman Catholics (or the corrupted Nicean Council or the self serving doctrine of Augustine.

The True story according to you is so full of lies and deception on your part It does not deserve a reply.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 08, 2010, 04:23:47 PM
Your questions are absurd, your comments raving lunacy and your conclusions are just plain vanity (insanity)

I cant eevn start to correct all your errors of judgement,.......

Then why don't you pick out just one and we can focus on that?

....... You say you want to seek the truth but have the talent to distort every thing that is not from the archives of the Roman Catholics (or the corrupted Nicean Council or the self serving doctrine of Augustine.

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=97.0
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=96.0

The True story according to you is so full of lies and deception on your part It does not deserve a reply.

What you mean is that you are incapable of replying, because you can see the truth is contrary to what you have been taught, and now you find Mohammed's indefensible religion is nothing but pure 7th century poppycock and recycled pagan rituals.
Again, simply saying something doesn't make it so, yet you continue to avoid specifics, or to support the false claims that you make.
Why not first show us the evidence that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD, and then show us the EVICENCE that suggests that the Kaaba existed before pagan immigrants from Yemen built it around the early 5th century?

Mohammed credited his tribe the Quraish with building the Kaaba from the ground up.
Sahih Muslim Book 007, Number 3078:
    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger may peace be upon him) said to me: Had your people not been unbelievers in the recent past (had they not quite recently accepted Islam), I would have demolished the Ka'ba and would have rebuilt it on the foundation (laid) by Ibrahim; for when the Quraish had built the Ka'ba, they reduced its (area), and I would also have built (a door) in the rear.

If Mohammed's tribe the Quraish didn't build the Kaaba for moon, sun and star worship, then why don't you tell us what they did build it for? Did Mohammed's tribe the Quraish invent Mohammedanism before Mohammed was born?
Are you going to pretend that Mohammed's grandfather wasn't into the Arabian jinn religion? That Mohammed's wife's father didn't get his news from jinn? That Mohammed didn't come from a long line of pagans steeped in the occult? That the Kaaba didn't contain 360 idols - one of which it still houses today? Or deny that the Muslims joined the pagans shoulder to shoulder in circumambulation of the Kaaba? Of course you can't deny that because it's all true.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Number 365:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    On the Day of Nahr (10th of Dhul-Hijja, in the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Abu Bakr was the leader of the pilgrims in that Hajj) Abu Bakr sent me along with other announcers to Mina to make a public announcement: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba. Then Allah's Apostle sent 'All to read out the Surat Bara'a (At-Tauba) to the people; so he made the announcement along with us on the day of Nahr in Mina: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba."

Poor pagans got thrown out of their own ritual.
Can you imagine a bunch of naked pagans and Muslims performing Tawaf!!???

In other words you are going to have to bring EVIDENCE before your empty words above can be perceived as anything other than false accusations and lies.
But then that's already established by your rejection of all of the prophets and apostles as revealed in the Word of God.

1John 5:10  He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 09, 2010, 12:29:56 AM
All we ask is that folks coming to this forum engage in DIALOGUE - that is in an EXCHANGE.
All you have done so far is engage in false accusation, personal attacks, and spamming unsupported nonsense and irrelevancy as you avoid specifics, while ignoring replies to your comments.
The reason you were unable to engage in dialogue is that Mohammed's STAND-ALONE 7th century religious invention is entirely unsupportable, through history, archaeology, geography or particularly through scripture. Islam has never been able to stand the light of truth. That's why bibles are banned in Muslim countries, and why Muslims that come to Jesus Christ are killed as Islamic apostates.

Please respond to the replies to your comments in this thread, as well as the other threads you left comments on, before commenting on any more threads. Besides this thread here is a list of your other comments that have been replied to, to which you still have not responded.

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.msg5793#msg5793
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.msg5797#msg5797
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=466.msg5801#msg5801

Why don't you start with my first reply.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.msg5794#msg5794
Please break my posts up into smaller pieces to make it easier to address all of the points, and PLEASE BE SPECIFIC and support your claims.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on June 12, 2010, 07:08:02 PM
My Dear Pete

In order to understand the Religion of the Most successful person in the history of the world you need to believe in the GOD of Adam and all the Prophets including Jesus may ALLAH bestow Peace upon them all.

You have to denounce your worship of a human that you say is the Son of GOD, worshipping a humen -God  or Son-god or Spirit-God makes you Mushrik (a person that ascribes partners to ALLAH).

Your True Story is your version of the history as told by enemies of Islam as you are telling people your story according to your intellect, Let me give you an example of a Jesus Story that is very plausible and can be found by Googling the Tomb of Jesus in kashmir.

The links will clearly give you documented history of a very good person that had to flee from his homeland due to severe persecution and they even crixified him, he had the marks and scars to prove it.

This evidence proves beyond a shodow of a doubt that the all the events of Jesus is true to the point of Resurrection when Jesus actually Rose of recovering for three days and left (descended over the Mountains) to the east and settled in Kashmir.

Now despite all the evidence, to the contrary, I still believe the version that Prophet Jesus (messiah born of Mary) was taken into heaven by ALLAH and he will return one day.

Your story is biased against Islam and has no merit in the history books though it is a plausible version but the plausibility is not a basis for the truth. You sell theory as Truth and for me to waste my time trying to explain the truth about geography, like the tilt of the earth that changes the realation to north east (sunrise) and, the ability to plot a map accurately and to take into account the fact that all your evidence is folklore or stories that has been transmitted over time by different types of human (there are no digital archives of 5000 years ago) there are no books dating to 5000 years BC and the language used was more than likely ARABIC!

The Variables and the length of time is very prohibitive and we can only take the words of the Prophets as Gospel (the truth) the final Messenger gave you the final message and you now not only seek to deny it but you have to the audacity to lie about the so called evidence you have

Only an ignorant fool would believe such drivel, Historians that guarded their work for 5000 years, the integrity of the Scripture is not garunteed a true copy of the Original Latin, let alone the Greek or the Aramaic (does not exist) and that is 2010 years ago, how on earth do you without batting an eyelid tell the story of Abraham from a made up historian.!!!
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 13, 2010, 06:56:41 AM
First of all this post is an epic failure in regard to answering to my replies. Indeed it is completely off topic. The topic of this thread is the Kaaba that pagans built in the early 5th century AD to worship the moon, sun, and stars.
I should have moved this to spam storage with the rest of the posts you entered in here after ignoring my responses to your posts, and refusing to engage in dialog. If you continue to ignore the responses to your first 4 posts, linked in the post before yours I will again move them to spam storage.

My Dear Pete

In order to understand the Religion of the Most successful person in the history of the world you need to believe in the GOD of Adam and all the Prophets including Jesus may ALLAH bestow Peace upon them all.

While you've been deceived into an understanding that you believe in the God of the Jews and Christians, you must reject the very prophets you mention, as revealed in scripture, including Jesus, in order to follow Mohammed and his god "Allah".

Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

You have to denounce your worship of a human that you say is the Son of GOD, worshipping a humen -God  or Son-god or Spirit-God makes you Mushrik (a person that ascribes partners to ALLAH).

Your True Story is your version of the history as told by enemies of Islam as you are telling people your story according to your intellect, Let me give you an example of a Jesus Story that is very plausible and can be found by Googling the Tomb of Jesus in kashmir.

The links will clearly give you documented history of a very good person that had to flee from his homeland due to severe persecution and they even crixified him, he had the marks and scars to prove it.

This evidence proves beyond a shodow of a doubt that the all the events of Jesus is true to the point of Resurrection when Jesus actually Rose of recovering for three days and left (descended over the Mountains) to the east and settled in Kashmir.

Now despite all the evidence, to the contrary, I still believe the version that Prophet Jesus (messiah born of Mary) was taken into heaven by ALLAH and he will return one day.

Your story is biased against Islam and has no merit in the history books though it is a plausible version but the plausibility is not a basis for the truth.

The above is irrelevant drivel that did not serve this topic, you, or I.
The history that I follow is that recorded by the folks who lived in or near the times.

You sell theory as Truth and for me to waste my time trying to explain the truth about geography, .......

I'm sorry, but if you can't explain how Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael wandered 1200 miles through unknown uncharted desert, from Hebron to Mecca, 900 years before the first caravan route was ever established along the red sea, then Mohammed's preposterous nonsense goes up in smoke. Flying camels and all.
How did Ishmael travel the 1200 miles to attend his father's burial in Hebron?
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 13, 2010, 07:00:26 AM
........ like the tilt of the earth that changes the realation to north east (sunrise) and, the ability to plot a map accurately and to take into account the fact that all your evidence is folklore or stories that has been transmitted over time by different types of human (there are no digital archives of 5000 years ago) there are no books dating to 5000 years BC ......

Since you are ignorant to Hebrew scribal methods it's ridiculous of you to discuss the topic. Why don't you try to educate yourself first? Oh, that's right, if you educated yourself you would have the intellect of something other than a desert dwelling illiterate, that is required to follow Mohammed.
The scriptures were preserved.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=97.0

The history and flying camels that you follow was a 7th and 8th century fiction created by Ibn Ishak and Tabari without a single reference to any historical record that preceded them. Pure fiction.

..... and the language used was more than likely ARABIC!

You poor, poor thing. Even the Arabic that Mohammed's tribe the Quraish used was a modern variant of the older version which was also a relatively new language on the scene.

The Variables and the length of time is very prohibitive and we can only take the words of the Prophets as Gospel (the truth) the final Messenger gave you the final message and you now not only seek to deny it but you have to the audacity to lie about the so called evidence you have

I deny Mohammed's 23 year 7th century record because I follow the 1600 year record of God to mankind, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years. A very compelling reason not to follow Mohammed is because he was A SINGLE, 7th century, illiterate (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=452.0), pillaging (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=856.0), plundering (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-raid-caravans.htm), murdering (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=127.0), child doing (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=769.msg3047#msg3047), prisoner raping (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=856.msg3411#msg3411), stepson's only wife stealing (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=929.0), sex slave prostituting (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=456.0), concubine fornicating (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=856.msg3411#msg3411), lying (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=952.0), cheating (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=950.0), blood drenched (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=856.0), imperialistic (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geut2COmRLYsMAd.dXNyoA?p=history+islamic+first+jihad+poitiers+france+vienna+austria&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-832&sao=1), conquering (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=856.0), terrorist (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=953.0), thief (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=608.0). A man, and book that are THE EXACT OPPOSITE of Jesus and the New Testament."

A phony "prophet" that had no fulfilled prophecy, that not a single person ever heard his god "Allah's" voice give a revelation to, that never even performed a single miracle.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 13, 2010, 07:03:45 AM
Only an ignorant fool would believe such drivel, Historians .......

I see. An ignorant fool is convinced by scripture, history, confirming archaeology and geographical sensibility, but a person that wants to believe in Zoroastrian style flying camels, but must first void his mind of history, archaeology and geography until his intellect mirrors that of a 7th century illiterate, is intelligent?

....... that guarded their work for 5000 years, the integrity of the Scripture is not garunteed a true copy of the Original Latin, let alone the Greek or the Aramaic (does not exist) and that is 2010 years ago, how on earth do you without batting an eyelid tell the story of Abraham from a made up historian.!!!

Now why don't you try replying to the subject of this thread.
Show us some evidence that suggests that the Kaaba existed prior to the early 5th century AD when pagan immigrants from Yemen built it for moon, sun and star worship. What do you think the 360 idols at the Kaaba were all about? Mohammedanism?

Since you believe the preposterous notion that Abraham and Ishmael were ever in Mecca, or had anything to do with the pagan kaaba, you are under obligation to explain how Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael wandered across 1200 miles of unknown uncharted desert, from Hebron to Mecca, 900 years before the first caravan route was ever established along the red sea. If you can't explain this - Mohammedanism goes up in smoke.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on June 14, 2010, 05:38:38 AM
Dear Peter

May ALLAH guide you, I am a Muslim and cannot listen to this level of ignorance, blind faith is one thing, plain stupidity is another,
You are have the truth in front of you with over 3500 years worth and yet you feel compelled to follow misguided interpretations of that scripture.


the true story is held by the Arabs, write to the University in medina and Alazhar in Cairo, you keep forgetting that the history of the world was compiled by the Arabs (Greek, Roman and Persian Philosophies) in Bagdad and handed to Europe as a gift, your entire civilization is built on it.
 The Period, 6-12th century is the era of Islam and the benefit of Muhammad has affected the entire world to such a degree that you write arabic everyday when you write down a number. Open your eyes, you are drowning in the filth of the transgressors. The way they made you feel is the same way they made the Christian feel in the 8_12th centuries resulting in unnecessary wars.

Islam is not the enemy, falsehood and individuals that have the pride of Satan are. I dislike the sin but love the sinner. you seem to have an extreme dislke for Muslims (very unchristian like)

Islam is based upon:
The true belief of ADAM
The Faith of ABRAHAM
The Patience of Job
The LAWS of MOSES
The LOVE of Jesus
The way of Muhammad (he showed us how to implement all

one story you do not have access to and the quality of this story is mediam compared to others
Allah Saves Daniel from Lions

Ibn Abi Al-Dunya narrated the following, based on a chain of citations. NEbuchadnezzar captured two lions and threw them into a pit. He then brought Daniel and threw him at them; yet they did not pounce at him; rather, he remained as Allah wished. When then he desired food and drink, Allah revealed to Jeremiah, who was in Sham (Palestine/Syria): "Prepare food and drink for Daniel." He said: "0 Lord I am in Jerusalem while Daniel is in Babylon (Iraq)." Allah revealed to him: "Do what I have commanded you to do, and I shall send you one who will carry you and what you have prepared." Jeremiah did so and Allah sent him something that would carry him until he arrived at the brink of the pit.

Then Daniel asked: "Who is this?" He answered: "I am Jeremiah." He asked: "What brought you?" He answered: "Your Lord sent me to you." He said: "And so my Lord has remembered me?" He said: "Yes." Daniel said: "Praise be to Allah Who has never forgotten me! And Praise be to Allah Who never forgets those who appeal to Him! And Praise be to Him Who compensates good with good, rewards patience with safety, dispels harm after distress, assures us when we are overwhelmed, and is our hope when skill fails us."

Daniel After Death

Yunus Ibn Bakeer reported that Muhammad Ibn Ishaaq reported that Abu Khalid Ibn Dinar reported that Abul Aalia said: "When Tastar was invaded, we found, in the treasure house of Al-Harmazan, a bed on which lay a dead man, with a holy script at his bedside. We took the scripture to Umar Ibn Al-Khattab. He called Ka'b and he translated it into Arabic, and I was the first Arab to read it. I read it as I read the Quran." Here, I (i.e. Khalid Ibn Dinar) said to Abul Aalia: "What was in it?" He said: "Life history, annals, songs, speech, and what is to come." I asked: "And what did you do with the man?" He said: "We dug in the river bank thirteen separate graves. At nightfall we buried him and leveled all the graves in order to mislead people for they would tamper with him." I asked: "And what did they want from him?" He said: "When the sky was cloudless for them, they went out with his bed, and it rained." I asked: "Who did you think the man was?" He said: "A man called Daniel." I asked: "And for how long had he been dead when you found him?" He said: 'Three hundred years." I asked: "Did not anything change on him?" He said: "No, except for the hairs of his face (beard and mustache); the skin of the prophets is not harmed by the earth, nor devoured by hyenas."

The chain of citation from Abul 'Aa'lia is good, but if the date of the dead man's death was really three hundred years, then he was not a prophet but a saintly man, because there was no prophet between Jesus and the Prophet Muhammad , according to the hadith in Bukhari. The span between them (i.e. the dead man and Muhammad ) was variously reported as four hundred, six hundred, and six hundred twenty years. It could be that he had died eight hundred years earlier, which would be near to Daniel's time, if his being Daniel is correct. However, he could still have been somebody else, either a prophet or a saint. Yet the truth is more likely that he was Daniel, because he had been taken by the King of Persia and remained imprisoned, as already mentioned.

It was narrated with a correct citation that his nose was one span (nine inches)long. Anas Ibn Malik, with good citation, said that his nose was an arm's stretch long (two feet), on which basis he is thought to be an ancient prophet from before this period. Almighty Allah knows best.

Daniel's Death - Hadith

Abu Bakr Ibn Abu Dunya wrote in the book Ahkam-alQubur (The Rules of Graves), based on a long chain of citation, that the Prophet said: "Daniel prayed to his Lord, Great and Majestic for the nation of Muhammad to bury him." And he (i.e. Muhammad, PBUH) said: "Whoever discovers Daniel give him tidings of Paradise." The man who discovered him (his corpse) was called Harqus. Umar sent to Abu Musa saying: "Bury him; and send to Harqus, for the Prophet has given him promise of Paradise."

This hadith is mursal (it has a good chain of citation) as it is recorded, and Allah knows best.

After Daniel's Death - Variation

Thn Abu Dunya reported from Abu Bilal that Abu Musa found with Daniel a holy script and a container in which were dirhams, his ring and ointment. He wrote to 'Umar, who replied: "Send the scripture to us, send some of the ointment, tell the Muslims who are with you to use it, share the dirhams among them, and leave the ring for you.

Abu Dunya related without citation that when Abu Musa was told that he was Daniel, he stayed with him, embraced him, and kissed him. Then he wrote to 'Umar that he found with him nearly ten thousand dirhams. It used to be that people came to borrow from it, and if they did not return it, they became sick. 'Umar ordered his burial in a grave to be kept secret and the money to be sent to the treasury, with the box and the ring a gift to him (Abu Musa).

It is related of Abu Musa that he told four of the captives to dam the river and dig a grave in the middle, where he buried him. Then he beheaded the four captives in order for the secret to be kept from all except himself.

Daniel's Ring

Ibn Abu Dunya also reported, by a chain of citations, that a ring was seen on the hand of Ibn Abu Barda Ibn Abu Musa. The gem was carved with two lions with a man between them, whom they were licking. Abu Barda said: 'This is the ring of that man whom the people of this town say is Daniel. Abu Musa took it the day he was buried. The learned people of that town told Abu Musa that soothsayers and astrologers told the king in Daniel's time that a boy would be born who would destroy him and his kingdom. So the king swore to kill all the baby boys, except that they threw Daniel in the lions' den, and the lion and lioness began to lick him and did not harm him. His mother came and took him. Abu Musa said: 'And so Daniel carved his image and the image of the two lions into the gem of his ring, for him not to forget Allah's blessing upon him in this."' This has a good citation.
the
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 14, 2010, 07:30:14 AM
The reason that you posted irrelevant and fictional drivel is because you could not comply with my simple requests. Please try to avoid junking up threads with unrelated lies. Like the ignorant Mohammedan nonsense about Daniel that was CREATED in the 7th or 8th century.
You are required to ENGAGE IN DIALOG but you continue to ignore my questions, and the thread subjects, because they expose Mohammedanism as the complete fraud that it is.

Not a single word of what you wrote provides EVIDENCE or historical support that suggests that the Kaaba was built prior to the early 5th century AD.
That's because MECCA DID NOT EXIST before the 4th century AD.


That means that any ridiculous drivel in your Quran or Hadith, about anything that happened prior to the Year of the Elephant (when Islamic history BEGAN to be recorded), is nothing more than CREATED FICTION - that is - pure lies - of Islam's 7th and 8th century fictional history authors.

That makes the preposterous claim that Mecca was the epicenter of Mohammed's religion - since Adam - utterly ridiculous.
Even Mohammed credited pagan immigrants from Yemen with building the Kaaba - from the ground up.

Now I request again. Reply to the subject of this thread.
Show us some evidence that suggests that the Kaaba existed prior to the early 5th century AD when pagan immigrants from Yemen built it for moon, sun and star worship.
What do you think the 360 idols at the Kaaba were all about? Mohammedanism?
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on June 14, 2010, 02:04:53 PM
Dear Pete

After my comments is the history of the Ka'ba

It is impossible to argue with a fool like you, due to your high levels of ignorance and lack of basic education in religious matters and the degree of indoctrination you suffer. 125000 Prophets were sent to the earth, Muhammad connected all the dots of all the scriptures from ALLAH, (ALL Scripture is from ALLAH, muslims do not deny scripture, only deviations from the truth)

The worship you talk about is not of the Black Stone, not of the Ka'aba (it is not a shrine) The blood and honor of a believer is more sacred than the entire Makkah, The walking around it seven times has its roots in the actions of  Prophets not pagans,

My point with Daniel's story is that The Arab universities and many Islamic Universities have books that are authentic and hold the truth of the world. The criteria for access is belief. You lack that basic criteria and I fear that you are depriving yourself of the truth.

You obviously don't understand my arguments, basic as they may be, which means I am unable to convince you of simple truths.

My point is that you have believed the lies and deception written in books by men who are bent on destroying your soul. The Truth cannot penetrate a heart that is hard and black.

Here is the Story of the KA'ABA

The kaaba was built by ADAM rebuilt by Abraham and it stands on the Golden mean of the Earth longitude and latitude,

The small, cubed building known as the Kaba may not rival skyscrapers in height or mansions in width, but its impact on history and human beings is unmatched.

The Kaba is the building towards which Muslims face five times a day, everyday, in prayer. This has been the case since the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) over 1400 years ago.

The Size of the Kaba:

The current height of the Kaba is 39 feet, 6 inches and total size comes to 627 square feet.

The inside room of the Kaba is 13X9 meters. The Kaba's walls are one meter wide. The floor inside is 2.2 meters higher than the place where people perform Tawaf.

The ceiling and roof are two levels made out of wood. They were reconstructed with teak which is capped with stainless steel.

The walls are all made of stone. The stones inside are unpolished, while the ones outside are polished.

This small building has been constructed and reconstructed by Prophets Adam, Ibrahim, Ismail and Muhammad (peace be upon them all). No other building has had this honor.

Yet, not very much is known about the details of this small but significant building.

Did you know the Kaba was reconstructed as recently as close to four years ago?

Did you know that the Kaba has been subjected to danger by natural disasters like flooding, as well as human attacks?

If you didn't keep reading. You'll find some rarely heard of information discussed below and discover facts about the Kaba many are unaware of.

The other names of the Kaba

Literally, Kaba in Arabic means a high place with respect and prestige. The word Kaba may also be derivative of a word meaning a cube.

Some of these other names include:

Bait ul Ateeq-which means, according to one meaning, the earliest and ancient. According to the second meaning, it means independent and liberating. Both meanings could be taken

Bait ul Haram-the honorable house

The Kaba has been reconstructed up to 12 times

Scholars and historians say that the Kaba has been reconstructed between five to 12 times.

The very first construction of the Kaba was done by Prophet Adam (peace be upon him). Allah says in the Quran that this was the first house that was built for humanity to worship Allah.

After this, Prophet Ibrahim and Ismail (peace be upon them) rebuilt the Kaba. The measurements of the Kaba's Ibrahimic foundation are as follows:

-the eastern wall was 48 feet and 6 inches

-the Hateem side wall was 33 feet

-the side between the black stone and the Yemeni corner was 30 feet

-the Western side was 46.5 feet

Following this, there were several constructions before the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be uponj him) 's time.

Reconstruction of Kaba by Quraish

Prophet Muhammad participated in one of its reconstructions before he became a Prophet.

After a flash flood, the Kaba was damaged and its walls cracked. It needed rebuilding.

This responsibility was divided among the Quraish's four tribes. Prophet Muhammad helped with this reconstruction.

Once the walls were erected, it was time to place the Black Stone, (the Hajar ul Aswad) on the eastern wall of the Kaba.

Arguments erupted about who would have the honor of putting the Black Stone in its place. A fight was about to break out over the issue, when Abu Umayyah, Makkah's oldest man, proposed that the first man to enter the gate of the mosque the following morning would decide the matter. That man was the Prophet. The Makkans were ecstatic. "This is the trustworthy one (Al-Ameen)," they shouted in a chorus. "This is Muhammad".

He came to them and they asked him to decide on the matter. He agreed.

Prophet Muhammad proposed a solution that all agreed to-putting the Black Stone on a cloak, the elders of each of the clans held on to one edge of the cloak and carried the stone to its place. The Prophet then picked up the stone and placed it on the wall of the Kaba.

Since the tribe of Quraish did not have sufficient funds, this reconstruction did not include the entire foundation of the Kaba as built by Prophet Ibrahim. This is the first time the Kaba acquired the cubical shape it has now unlike the rectangle shape which it had earlier. The portion of the Kaba left out is called Hateem now.

Construction After the Prophet's Time-Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr

The Syrian army destroyed the Kaba in Muharram 64 (Hijri date) and before the next Hajj Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr, may Allah be pleased with him, reconstructed the Kaba from the ground up.

Ibn az-Zubayr wanted to make the Kaba how the Prophet Muhammad wanted it, on the foundation of the Prophet Ibrahim.

Ibn az-Zubayr said, "I heard Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) say, 'The Prophet said: "If your people had not quite recently abandoned the Ignorance (Unbelief), and if I had sufficient provisions to rebuild it [the Kaba], I would have added five cubits to it from the Hijr. Also, I would make two doors; one for people to enter therein and the other to exit." (Bukhari). Ibn az-Zubayr said, "Today, I can afford to do it and I do not fear the people.

Ibn az-Zubayr built the Kaba on Prophet Ibrahim's foundation. He put the roof on three pillars with the wood of Aoud (a perfumed wood with aroma which is traditionally burned to get a good smell out of it in Arabia).

In his construction he put two doors, one facing the east the other facing the west, as the Prophet wanted but did not do in his lifetime.

He rebuilt the Kaba on the Prophet Ibrahim's foundation, which meant that the Hateem area was included. The Hateem is the area adjacent to the Kaba enclosed by a low semi-circular wall.

Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr also made the following additions and modifications:

-put a small window close to the roof of the Kaba to allow for light.

-moved the door of the Kaba to ground level and added a second door to the Kaba.

-added nine cubits to the height of the Kaba, making it twenty cubits high.

-its walls were two cubits wide.

-reduced the pillars inside the House to three instead of six as were earlier built by Quraish.

For reconstruction, ibn az-Zubayr put up four pillars around Kaba and hung cloth over them until the building was completed. People began to do Tawaf around these pillars at all times, so Tawaf of the Kaba was never abandoned, even during reconstruction.

During Abdul Malik bin Marwan's time

In 74 Hijri (or 693 according to the Gregorian calendar), Al-Hajjaj bin Yusuf al-Thaqafi, the known tyrant of that time, with the approval of Umayyad Khalifa Abdul Malik bin Marwan, demolished what Ibn az-Zubayr had added to it from the older foundation of Prophet Ibrahim, restore its old structure as the Quraish had had it.

Some of the changes he made were the following:

-he rebuilt it in the smaller shape which is found today

-took out the Hateem

-walled up the western door (whose signs are still visible today) and left the rest as it was

-pulled down the wall in the Hateem area.

-removed the wooden ladder Ibn az-Zubayr had put inside the Kaba.

-reduced the door's height by five cubits

When Abdul Malik bin Marwan came for Umra and heard the Hadith that it was wish of Prophet for the Kaba to be constructed the way Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr had built it, he regretted his actions.

Imam Malik's advice to the Khalifa Harun al Rasheed

Abbasi Khalifa Harun al Rasheed wanted to rebuild the Kaba the way the Prophet Muhammad wanted and the way Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr built it.

But when he consulted Imam Malik, the Imam asked the Khalifa to change his mind because constant demolition and rebuilding is not respectful and would become a toy in the hands of kings. Each one would want to demolish and rebuild the Kaba.

Based on this advice, Harun al Rasheed did not reconstruct the Kaba. The structure remained in the same construction for 966 years, with minor repairs here and there.

Reconstruction during Sultan Murad Khan's time

In the year 1039 Hijri, because of heavy rain, flood and hail, two of the Kaba's walls fell down.

The flood during which this occurred took place on the 19th of Shaban 1039 Hijri which continued constantly, so the water in the Kaba became almost close to half of its walls, about 10 feet from the ground level.

On Thursday the 20th of Shaban 1039 Hijri, the eastern and western walls fell down.

When flood receded on Friday the 21st of Shaban, the cleanup started.

Again, a curtain, the way Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr established on 4 pillars, was put up, and the reconstruction started on the 26th of Ramadan. The rest of the walls except for the one near the Black Stone, were demolished.

By the 2nd of Zul-Hijjah 1040 the construction was taking place under the guidance of Sultan Murad Khan, the Ottoman Khalifa. From the point of the Black stone and below, the current construction is the same as that done by Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr.

The construction which was done under the auspices of Murad Khan was exactly the one done at the time of Abdul Malik ibn Marwan which is the way the Quraysh had built it before Prophethood.

On Rajab 28 1377, One historian counted the total stones of the Kaba and they were 1,614. These stones are of different shapes. But the stones which are inside the outer wall which is visible are not counted in there.

Reconstruction of the Kaba In 1996

A major reconstruction of the Kaba took place between May 1996 and October 1996.

This was after a period of about 400 years (since Sultan Murad Khan's time).

During this reconstruction the only original thing left from the Kaba are the stones. All other material has been replaced including the ceiling and the roof and its wood.

What is inside the Kaba?

Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi is the president of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA). He had the opportunity to go inside the Kaba in October 1998. In an interview with Sound Vision, he described the following features:

-there are two pillars inside (others report 3 pillars)

-there is a table on the side to put items like perfume

-there are two lantern-type lamps hanging from the ceiling

-the space can accommodate about 50 people

-there are no electric lights inside

-the walls and floors are of marble

-there are no windows inside

-there is only one door

-the upper inside walls of the Kaba were covered with some kind of curtain with the Kalima written on it





The kaaba was buil
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 14, 2010, 04:10:55 PM
The worship you talk about is not of the Black Stone....

Was the black stone one of the 360 idols that the pagans venerated (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1050.0) at the kaaba before Mohammed?

Yes or no?
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on June 15, 2010, 07:33:35 PM
The black Stone was there before Muhammad which only proves that worship of the Idols was a deviation from a much older religion, like the religion of Abraham, Man has been sent 125000 Prophets each time they stryaed from the Path of ALLAH. ALLAH wants you to return to that Path and prophets were chosen from amongst the Tribes. Men that assumed that they know what ALLAH wants then starts to mislead the masses and man falls into worshipping of other men, deifying men, worshipping spirits and idols (wealth, power, church, state or system)

The final messenger (Muhammad) was shown what is sacred and what is not and obviously kept what is sacred, and idscarded the practices that were not, like The Ka'aba and performing the tawaaf around it comes from the practice of prophets., Jerusalem (never destroyed by muslims, ever) the home of many Prophets, Jesus, messiah born of mary and the practice of Abraham (HAJJ)

I can go thorugh all the Islamic rituals for you one by one and link it to a previous prophet. (jesus fell on his face and Prayed (did he not?) did he wash his feet before he prayed, did he fast?
Well the Muslims do all of that in the manner shown to them.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Phill on June 16, 2010, 06:41:28 AM

Anna

Unfortunately you fail to look at REAL ancient history and fail to understand that the Islamic history was falsified by people like Ibn Ishak. Saudi Arabia was extensively geographically documented by explorers and indeed Arabians themselves for hundreds of years before Mohammad was born. The Arabians documented all the clans and major centres of religious worship and trade going back nearly the time of Abraham. This history has been well studied from people all over the world and not a single one of them can find any trace of Mecca prior to the 4th century A.D or trading routes that came even close to where Mecca is located today.

Now this is a historicly documented fact. Unfortunately Islamic scholars like Ibn Ishak had to make up stories for the Islamic peoples so they would believe that Islam has been around since the time of Abraham and all the Jewish Prophets were actually Muslims. But the actual historic reality is that this is clearly false. You see if a lie gets told enough times over a few hundred years it tends to become fact at some stage. But it is still a lie and nothing can change that. Thankfully in todays world everyone has access to this information via the internet and can intelligently make up their own minds on history without having to listen to story tellers and thinking it must be the truth.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 16, 2010, 06:50:14 AM
Indeed Phil, and thank you for joining us! Not a single shred of the 7th and 8th century CREATED ISLAMIC HISTORY FICTION references a single actual historical record, even though actual historical record for Arabia abounds.

The black Stone was there before Muhammad which only proves ...........

That Muslims still circumambulate the very same kaaba, and venerate the very same black stone idol, that the pagans before them circumambulated and venerated as the moon god idol. Even joined pagans shoulder to shoulder in the pagan Hajj.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1050.0

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Number 365:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    On the Day of Nahr (10th of Dhul-Hijja, in the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Abu Bakr was the leader of the pilgrims in that Hajj) Abu Bakr sent me along with other announcers to Mina to make a public announcement: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba. Then Allah's Apostle sent 'All to read out the Surat Bara'a (At-Tauba) to the people; so he made the announcement along with us on the day of Nahr in Mina: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba."
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#twaf

that worship of the Idols was a deviation from a much older religion, like the religion of Abraham, Man has been sent 125000 Prophets each time they stryaed from the Path of ALLAH. ALLAH wants you to return to that Path and prophets were chosen from amongst the Tribes. Men that assumed that they know what ALLAH wants then starts to mislead the masses and man falls into worshipping of other men, deifying men, worshipping spirits and idols (wealth, power, church, state or system)

The final messenger (Muhammad) was shown what is sacred and what is not and obviously kept what is sacred, and idscarded the practices that were not, like The Ka'aba and performing the tawaaf around it comes from the practice of prophets., Jerusalem (never destroyed by muslims, ever) the home of many Prophets, Jesus, messiah born of mary and the practice of Abraham (HAJJ)

I can go thorugh all the Islamic rituals for you one by one and link it to a previous prophet. (jesus fell on his face and Prayed (did he not?) .......

We don't have to depend on presumption regarding prayer. We are instructed as to how to pray and how not to pray.

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain  repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

The instruction for you to pray vain repetitions 5 times a day and perform ablution did not result from Mohammed's fanciful ride on a flying camel to Jerusalem, heaven and back, as you have been taught, but from the 2nd century occult cult of the Sabians. Mohammed and 4 of his cousins were deeply involved in that cult.
And guess what? The Sabians prayed 5 times a day and performed ablution. Mohammed even mentions this occult cult right alongside Christians in the Quran.
http://brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

...... did he wash his feet before he prayed, did he fast?
Well the Muslims do all of that in the manner shown to them.

The Islamic rituals are all repackaged pagan Arabian Star Family and jinn/demon worship rituals. Summarized here.
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm

Now please answer this post
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=466.15
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on June 17, 2010, 09:32:08 AM
Your question is irrelevant and rhetorical. The stone was incorrectly worshipped and t let me remind you that this is a discussion board not a court of law, where the procedure is not more important than the truth. The truth about Makkah and the Ka'ba and the black stone was given its proper position in the world by Muhammad. Wrongs were corrected, incorrect worship was corrected by The prophet Muhammad. He came as a mercy unto all creation and to give the world clarity on the duties it has toward The Creator, the Prophets, the Scriptures and each other. The wisdom is not inferred or implied, it is explicit.

The black stone is not an object of worship and the vast majority of muslims go through their entire lives without ever touching it. Of the 1,8 biillion Muslims only 3-5 million make the pilgrimage to the Ka'aba annually. The black stone is not part of belief, it is a very minor ritual.

I humbly urge that correct your incorrect belief by looking at the Scriptures from Genesis and return to the worship of the One GOD, the GOD of Israel, the GOD of Arabia and all creation.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 17, 2010, 09:47:10 AM
Your question is irrelevant and rhetorical. The stone was incorrectly worshipped ........

I see. So when the Mohammedans took over the  very same ritual of VENERATION of the black stone, and then threw the pagans out of their own ceremony, only then was it "correctly" VENERATED.

....... and t let me remind you that this is a discussion board not a court of law, where the procedure is not more important than the truth. The truth about Makkah and the Ka'ba and the black stone was given its proper position in the world by Muhammad.

By doing nothing more than repackaging pagan stone idol veneration.

Wrongs were corrected, incorrect worship was corrected by The prophet Muhammad. He came as a mercy unto all creation and to give the world clarity on the duties it has toward The Creator, the Prophets, the Scriptures and each other. The wisdom is not inferred or implied, it is explicit.

The black stone is not an object of worship .........

The pagans didn't worship it either. They VENERATED IT as Muslims still do today.

venerate
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

To the pagans it REPRESENTED the moon god. They didn't believe it WAS THE MOON GOD.
Just as Muslims do the very same thing, but through Mohammed's even more preposterous twist, that his "Allah" actually, physically, sent the very same stone idol.
Even the pagans didn't risk a suggestion that ridiculous!
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 17, 2010, 10:32:34 AM
......... and the vast majority of muslims go through their entire lives without ever touching it.

That's because during Hajj, Tawaf is generally too crowded to kiss the stone like Mohammed did. The instructions then are that you are to point to the stone on each of the 7 times one circumambulates the pagan kaaba.

"The circle begins from the Black Stone on the corner of the Ka-bah. If possible, muslims are to kiss or touch it, but this is often not possible because of the large crowds, so it is acceptable for them to simply point at the Stone on each circuit. They are also to make the Takbeer prayer (Allahu Akbar) each time they approach."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawaf

Of the 1,8 biillion Muslims only 3-5 million make the pilgrimage to the Ka'aba annually.

And if a Muslim does not make it at least once in his lifetime he fails to perform one of the mandatory pillars of Islam.
Since Islam is spread primarily among uneducated people in 3rd world countries, most are too poor to follow the ridiculous demands of Mohammed's phony and fleshly "Allah", to be able to afford the trip to Mecca, to fatten the town coffers as pilgrims have since Mohammed's Grandfather maintained it - and before. Thus they die without ever performing that obligatory ritual.

The black stone is not part of belief, it is a very minor ritual.

Of course! Why it's only the reason you bow to the Kaaba and it's black stone five times a day! Oh yea, and have to squander your money to go to Saudi Arabia and circumambulate it, just like the pagans did. No biggie, huh?

I humbly urge that correct your incorrect belief by looking at the Scriptures from Genesis and return to the worship of the One GOD, the GOD of Israel, the GOD of Arabia and all creation.

God's people have worshiped Him through two covenants for 3500 years through the 1600 year record He gave us through ALL of the prophets, apostles and witnesses.
Not through Mohammed's nonsense that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the Gospel.

Why would you follow an unrepentant prisoner rapist anyway?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=466.15
 
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Phill on June 17, 2010, 11:18:36 PM

We all know that the Meccan Kaaba in Mohammads time was not the only in existence in Arabia. In fact there were numerouse Kaaba's located all around Arabia and yes each one had their own stone (some being other colours than just black). Islamic scholars show that Mohammads own tribe ventured once or twice a year to some other Kaaba elsewhere (probably where the three oldest Mosques point towards today which is North West of Mecca). This shows that the Kaaba at Mecca wasn't really that important in Mohammads time compared to ones in the much larger, longer established, more populated cities than Mecca.

I am sure Mohammad himself went on these pilgrimages himself when he was boy with his Uncle. Imagine the excitiement in Mohammads eyes as a boy to see so many people in these flourishing places where everyone came to worship Allah by the thousands and the floursihing trade merchants were doing that went with it

Now as an adult Mohammad we all know was a trader and a businessman and a seemingly very good one at that (besides not paying for much of his stock). As a businessman normaly does, they look to expand and build there business. Mohammad remebered this flourishing enterprise when he a boy. When Mohammad became the self proclaimed prophet, part of his business plans was to make Mecca the one and only centre of worship in Arabia to bring in those cashed up worshippers to spend there money there (amongst the Muslims) and pretty much make a killing by wiping out the competition. Although his religion was the main focus of his ambition, he knew it would also reap great wealth.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: punisher on June 24, 2010, 07:22:11 AM
The worship you talk about is not of the Black Stone....

Was the black stone one of the 360 idols that the pagans venerated (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1050.0) at the kaaba before Mohammed?

Yes or no?

I think i have clear your doubts?
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 24, 2010, 08:17:36 AM
The worship you talk about is not of the Black Stone....

Was the black stone one of the 360 idols that the pagans venerated (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1050.0) at the kaaba before Mohammed?

Yes or no?

I think i have clear your doubts?

Indeed you did! After desperately trying to run away from the fact, your admission that you don't respect the black stone, and then in the same sentence said you did respect it, said it all! Thus it is a simple matter of fact that Muslims VENERATE the black stone just like the pagans did before Mohammed.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1050.msg6201#msg6201

And Muslims venerate that black stone through the very same rituals of circumambulation that the Arab pagans invented.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1320.0
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on June 26, 2010, 07:20:26 AM
I cannot understand how you can be so dogmatic about a simple ritual, the word venerated is as many of your words is an attempt at misguidance and a clear indication of your intentions. I have explained it to you but you do not accept it. Your failure to find the history of the Ka'aba (you checked the libraries in Makkah and Madina   ??? of course not

The Muslims ruled the known world (70% of Europe) and collected all the books of knowledge in Bagdad (undisputed fact) that is why you have a bible today (thakns to the Muslims) All the history of the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Spanish, and Christians 9t+remember Constantinople (now Istanbul) came under Muslim Rule. So tell me who is more likely to have the books and History of the Entire Region stretching from The South of France in the West to China in the East, Russia in the North and Africa as far as the equator???????

Islam is not a simple minded religion (an ignorant disbeliever cannot understand it). I will attempt to explain Islam to you in context of the Black stone. that you say is venerated as the pagan worshippers did.

Islam has various levels of worship, faraid (compulsory), Sunnah, nafl(voluntary) and sadaka (charity), a smile is a charity if you have no money to give. The kissing of the Stone is regarded as a charity for yourself, and it is not a fundamental of belief. veneration is not to be equated with worship and the reason it is done is becuase we believe that the Prophet acted out of truth and from the istructions of ALLAH, whether you understand it or not is of no consequence. Your words are meaningless. and has no bearing on the truth. Yopu are quessiing at best.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 26, 2010, 07:29:57 AM
I cannot understand how you can be so dogmatic about a simple ritual, .......

A "simple ritual" through which the Mohammedans worship Mohammed's "Allah", just as the Arab pagans did did before him - even side by side until Mohammed threw them out of their own ritual.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 689:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
   In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'
Sahih Bukhari  Volume 1, Book 8, Number 365:

..... the word venerated is as many of your words is an attempt at misguidance and a clear indication of your intentions.

It is not my word. So you're the one that is guilty of the very "misguidance" that you falsely accuse me of.
Webster's Dictionary
Venerate
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

As you can see Muslim rituals and prayer toward their black stone constitute the very definition of venerate.

(http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/42553621_mashaalap416.jpg)

(http://kashifiat.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/hajj5b15d.jpg)

I have explained it to you but you do not accept it. Your failure to find the history of the Ka'aba (you checked the libraries in Makkah and Madina   ??? of course not

Arabic speaking, Dr. Rafat Amari did, in the course of his 20 year study.
Where is your historical and archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed prior to the Christian era?

Are you suggesting that the historical record of Mecca - the epicenter of Islam allegedly since Adam - is some sort of a closely guarded secret hidden in Mohammedan libraries for a few thousand years?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1465.0
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 26, 2010, 07:34:07 AM
The Muslims ruled the known world (70% of Europe) and collected all the books of knowledge in Bagdad (undisputed fact) that is why you have a bible today (thakns to the Muslims) ........

Surely you can't be that ignorant. The Scriptures had been copied many thousands of times in virtually every language known to man, and were being read all over the known world, hundreds of years before Mohammed was ever born. Let alone before the Islamic murder, mayhem, misery and slavery visited on innocent peoples of the world through the imperialistic conquest of the Islamic First Jihad that you make reference to.

........ All the history of the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Spanish, and Christians 9t+remember Constantinople (now Istanbul) came under Muslim Rule.

And Mohammedans destroyed as much historical record as they could, in an effort to replace it with the 7th and 8th century created fictional Mohammedan history.

So tell me who is more likely to have the books and History of the Entire Region stretching from The South of France in the West to China in the East, Russia in the North and Africa as far as the equator???????

History is history. It is a record that is kept by those who lived in or near the period written about.
So where is this history of Mecca that you have been indoctrinated to believe spanned many thousands of years?
Where are these historical records that are thousands of years old?
Where are all the artifacts? Are you aware that there are a million artifacts - just on display - in Jerusalem?
Show us.
Bring EVIDENCE to bear on your otherwise vacuous, hollow and empty words.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 26, 2010, 07:40:44 AM
Islam is not a simple minded religion (an ignorant disbeliever cannot understand it).

Then why is it most popular among illiterates in 3rd world countries? For the same reason that 75% of Americans leave Islam within a few years according to Al Jazeera. And even many of those are, little doubt, the illiterate jailhouse "converts".

Sorry AnnaMuslim but as has been shown, Muslims must first devoid their minds of scripture, history, archaeology, and geography until their minds mirror that of 7th century desert dwellers to buy into Mohammed's STAND-ALONE, 7th century fiction.
Until you bring EVIDENCE to bear, you will not be able to refute that except through your own, so-far, empty hollow words.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on June 26, 2010, 07:45:15 AM
I will attempt to explain Islam to you in context of the Black stone. that you say is venerated as the pagan worshippers did.

It isn't about what I say.
Was the very same black stone, venerated by Arab pagans before Mohammed, or not?
Did Arab pagans circumambulate the kaaba and black stone in ceremony or not?

Yes or No?
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on June 29, 2010, 07:16:48 AM
I begin in the Name of ALLAH the most merciful the most benevolent.
ALL praise is due to ALLAH the Lord of the Universe.

Dear Pete

I am scholar of Religion and the more I read Scripture (Jewish and Christian) and history of Religion (I live in a country where the Muslims are a very small minority) all our Books are Eurocentric and from American writers (western Scholars), I find the proof for the religion of Islam. The more books I read and do a comparison i find the evidence that Quran is divine and that it could not be written by a man, It could not be completely studied or the wisdom of the verses exhausted.

 I am not a blind follower, nor am I Biased nor indoctrinated as I am free of national pride, economical might, I ahve no superiority complex built in as a consequence of the society i find myself in, I attended an Anglican School, very similar to a roman Catholic one and I am basing my belief and what I accept as the truth on the evidence presented to me.

I can Assure you that you are being misled, by your scholars, you cannot enter into a decent discussion without monotonous repeat and regurgitating false accusations based on the emotions of corrupted scholars who I can Assure you is definitely not doing it out of their love for Yeshua (Jesus) Nabi EESA, the Messiah, messenger and spirit of ALLAH. They are bound by their arrogant pride to prove that they are right. The truth of Islam will soon overtake all their efforts. The truth will reach the majority of the human race very soon as it is reaching you and you are free to accept it or reject it.

I don't deny Scripture but the light of Islam has endowed me with the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, your statements like "venerated" is a clear indication that you have absolutely no idea how Jesus Prayed, how he fstaed, how he fell on his face and Prayed, how his miracles are possible, how his disciples followed him and spread the true Injeel.

A prophet is marked by the fact that his coming changes the course of history and ushers in a period of peace (golden age) Muhammad's coming has clearly brought about the much needed change in the world from the 7-14th century. Reread the true history of the world.

Jesus second coming will mark his period of peace on earth. jesus did not die on the cross

The cross is a symbol of execution not and object of veneration unless you a pagan, Satan wants to see human blood being spilt not animal blood, Satan wants none of the divine laws for humans and Satan waants to digrace you by making you commit the greatest sin a human being can commit (ascribing partners to GOD)

There is none worthy of worship but ALLAH, Muhammad is the prophet and final messenger of ALLAH.

May ALLAH guide us to the Straight path, Ameen

Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 02, 2010, 03:12:58 PM
I begin in the Name of ALLAH the most merciful the most benevolent.
ALL praise is due to ALLAH the Lord of the Universe.

Dear Pete

I am scholar of Religion and the more I read Scripture (Jewish and Christian) and history of Religion (I live in a country where the Muslims are a very small minority) all our Books are Eurocentric and from American writers (western Scholars), I find the proof for the religion of Islam. The more books I read and do a comparison i find the evidence that Quran is divine and that it could not be written by a man, It could not be completely studied or the wisdom of the verses exhausted.

 I am not a blind follower, nor am I Biased nor indoctrinated as I am free of national pride, economical might, I ahve no superiority complex built in as a consequence of the society i find myself in, I attended an Anglican School, very similar to a roman Catholic one and I am basing my belief and what I accept as the truth on the evidence presented to me.

I can Assure you that you are being misled, by your scholars, you cannot enter into a decent discussion without monotonous repeat and regurgitating false accusations based on the emotions of corrupted scholars who I can Assure you is definitely not doing it out of their love for Yeshua (Jesus) Nabi EESA, the Messiah, messenger and spirit of ALLAH. They are bound by their arrogant pride to prove that they are right. The truth of Islam will soon overtake all their efforts. The truth will reach the majority of the human race very soon as it is reaching you and you are free to accept it or reject it.

I don't deny Scripture but the light of Islam has endowed me with the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, your statements like "venerated" is a clear indication that you have absolutely no idea how Jesus Prayed, how he fstaed, how he fell on his face and Prayed, how his miracles are possible, how his disciples followed him and spread the true Injeel.

A prophet is marked by the fact that his coming changes the course of history and ushers in a period of peace (golden age) Muhammad's coming has clearly brought about the much needed change in the world from the 7-14th century. Reread the true history of the world.

Jesus second coming will mark his period of peace on earth. jesus did not die on the cross

The cross is a symbol of execution not and object of veneration unless you a pagan, Satan wants to see human blood being spilt not animal blood, Satan wants none of the divine laws for humans and Satan waants to digrace you by making you commit the greatest sin a human being can commit (ascribing partners to GOD)

There is none worthy of worship but ALLAH, Muhammad is the prophet and final messenger of ALLAH.

May ALLAH guide us to the Straight path, Ameen

The reason you obfuscate rather than simply answering questions is because you are buried in lies and fully understand that the truth is entirely ugly.
Before I pick apart the above, please answer the question I asked previously, that you gave your typical non-response to.

Was the very same black stone, venerated by Arab pagans before Mohammed, or not?
Did Arab pagans circumambulate the kaaba and black stone in ceremony or not?

Yes or No?
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on July 04, 2010, 06:12:27 AM
I begin in the Name of ALLAH the most merciful the most benevolent.
ALL praise is due to ALLAH the Lord of the Universe.

Here is the evidence that the Ka'aba was a place of worship before the Time Of Jesus (messiah born of Mary)

http://volker-doormann.org/kaaba23.htm

Quote
Edward Gibbon writes about the Kaaba and its existence before the Christian era in his book: "The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad." Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily)  describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia. 'And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.'
G E von Grunebaum says: "Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary."



The ka'aba and makkah in the BIBLE
Jude 14-15
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Muhammad conquered Makkah with 10 000 of his Companions

 15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
ten years he tried to convince the quraish of the wrong-doing and The ungodly worship of idols and human gods

Conquest of Makkah by Muslims in the Bible
"And Enoch also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"


"And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
(Deuteronomy 33:2)" Please don't try to say it is a new Jewish kibbutz by the same name that appeared in 1976


"Lord came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise." (Habakkuk 3:3)

Hastings dictionary of the Bible describes Teman as an oasis just north of Madina. Paran is the city of Makkah. E-sword dictionary also agrees with this.

Plus other evidence is also available for this claim.

The evidence is by non-Muslims.

Prophet Muhammad (s) is the only man in history to migrate from Makkah to Madina and then return to Makkah with 10,000 men.

The army of the Muslims that conquered Mecca without any blood shed (peacefully) were exactly 10,000 men (From the book of "Muhammad the Prophet" by Maulana Muhammad Ali, pages 128-129). The Bible calls them "ten thousands of saints"

A Christian once claimed:
The saints were angelic beings and it was God who descended and not Prophet Muhammad (s).


My response:
The dictionary does not agree that a saint is an angel. A saint is a human being.
If we look at the words carefully, we see that the verses are clearly stating that it is a prophecy and therefore the question of past tenses does not arise.

It is not God personally who is being talked about but the knowledge of God because God is not limited to a single place.


Ka'ba in vedic tradition (this is an opinion of a Hindu taken from his historical records)

Quote
Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia

Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - by Aditi Chaturvedi

Many centuries before prophet Muhammad and the destructive advent of Islam, Arabia or Arabistan was an extremely rich and glorious center of Vedic civilization. It is the prophet Muhammad and the followers of Islam who are fully responsible for the dissemination and destruction of this once glorious culture.

In learning about this most ancient heritage, let's begin with the word Arabistan itself. Arabistan in Sanskrit terms is Arvasthan which means The Land of Horses. Since time immemorial proponents of the Vedic culture used to breed exceptional horses in this region. Thus eventually the land itself began to be called Arva (Horses) -Sthan (place). The people who lived in this land were called Semitic. Semitic which in Sanskrit is Smritic. Arabs followed the ancient Vedic Smritis such as Manu-Smriti as their revered religious guides and thus they were identified as Smritic.

At that time the Uttarapath (Northern Highway) was the international highway to the North of India. It was via Uttarapath that Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries drew their spiritual, educational and material sustenance from India. Besides, this Sea-links were formed with India at least 800 years before the advent of Islam. Basra was the ancient gateway to India because it was at this port that the Arab lands recieved Indian goods and visitors.


"Aya muwarekal araj yushaiya noha minar HIND-e Wa aradakallaha manyonaifail jikaratun"

"Oh the divine land of HIND (India) (how) very blessed art thou! Because thou art the chosen of God blessed with knowledge"

"Wahalatijali Yatun ainana sahabi akha-atun jikra Wahajayhi yonajjalur -rasu minal HINDATUN "

"That celestial knowledge which like four lighthouses shone in such brilliance - through the (utterances of) Indian sages in fourfold abundance."

"Yakuloonallaha ya ahal araf alameen kullahum Fattabe-u jikaratul VEDA bukkun malam yonajjaylatun"

"God enjoins on all humans, follow with hands down The path the Vedas with his divine precept lay down."

"Wahowa alamus SAMA wal YAJUR minallahay Tanajeelan Fa-e- noma ya akhigo mutiabay-an Yobassheriyona jatun"

"Bursting with (Divine) knowledge are SAM &YAJUR bestowed on creation, Hence brothers respect and follow the Vedas, guides to salvation"

"Wa-isa nain huma RIG ATHAR nasayhin Ka-a-Khuwatun Wa asant Ala-udan wabowa masha -e-ratun"

"Two others, the Rig and Athar teach us fraternity, Sheltering under their lustre dispels darkness till eternity"

This poem was written by Labi-Bin-E- Akhtab-Bin-E-Turfa who lived in Arabia around 1850 B.C. That was 2300 years before Mohammed!!! This verse can be found in Sair- Ul- Okul which is an anthology of ancient Arabic poetry. It was compiled in 1742 AD under order of the Turkish Sultan Salim.

That the Vedas were the religious scriptures to which the Arabs owed allegiance as early as 1800 B.C. proves not only the antiquity of the Vedas but also the existence of Indian rule over the entire region from the Indus to the Mediterranean, because it is a fact of history that the religion of the ruler is practised by his subjects.

Vedic culture was very much alive just before the birth of Muhammad. Again let's refer to the Sair-Ul-Okul. The following poem was written by Jirrham Bintoi who lived 165 years before the prophet Muhammed. It is in praise of India's great King Vikramaditya who had lived 500 years before Bintoi. (found in the Ka'aba)

"Itrasshaphai Santul

Bikramatul phehalameen Karimun

Bihillahaya Samiminela

Motakabbenaran Bihillaha

Yubee qaid min howa

Yaphakharu phajgal asari

nahans Osirim Bayjayholeen

Yaha sabdunya Kanateph natephi

bijihalin Atadari Bilala masaurateen

phakef Tasabahu. Kaunni eja majakaralhada

walhada Achimiman, burukan, Kad, Toluho

watastaru Bihillaha yakajibainana baleykulle amarena

Phaheya jaunabil amaray Bikramatoon" - (Sair-ul-Okul, Page 315)

"Fortunate are those who were born during King Vikram's reign, he was a noble generous, dutiful ruler devoted to the welfare of his subjects. But at that time, We Arabs oblivious of divinity were lost in sensual pleasures. Plotting & torture were rampant. The darkness of ignorance had enveloped our country. Like the lamb struggling for its life in the cruel jaws of a wolf, we Arabs were gripped by ignorance. The whole country was enveloped in a darkness as intense as on a New moon night. But the present dawn & pleasant sunshine of education is the result of the favor of that noble king Vikram whose benevolence did not lose sight of us foreigners as we were. He spread his sacred culture amongst us and sent scholars from his own land whose brilliance shone like that of the sun in our country. These scholars & preceptors through whose benevolence we were once again made aware of the presence of god, introduced to his secret knowledge & put on the road to truth, had come to our country to initiate us in that culture & impart education."

Thus we can see that Vedic religion and culture were present in Pre-Islamic Arabia as early as 1850 B.C., and definitely present at the time of Mohammed's birth. (AT THE KA'ABA

In his book Origines, Volumes 3 & 4", Sir W. Drummond adds:

"Tsabaism was the universal language of mankind when Abraham received his call, their doctrines were probably extended all over the civilized nations of Earth."

Tsabaism is merely the corruption of the word Shaivism which is Vedic religion. On page 439 of this book, Sir Drummond mentions some of gods of pre-Islamic Arabs, all of which were included in the 360 idols that were consecrated in the Kaba shrine before it was raided and destroyed by Muhammad and his followers. Here are some of the Vedic deities and their original Sanskrit names:

Arabic Sanskrit English

Al-Dsaizan Shani Saturn

Al-Ozi or Ozza Oorja Divine energy

Al-Sharak Shukra Venus

Auds Uddhav -

Bag Bhagwan God

Bajar Vajra Indra's thunderbolt

Kabar Kuber God of wealth

Dar Indra King of gods

Dua Shara Deveshwar Lord of the gods

Habal Bahubali Lord of strength

Madan Madan God of love

Manaph Manu First Man

Manat Somnath Lord Shiv

Obodes Bhoodev Earth

Razeah Rajesh King of kings

Saad Siddhi God of Luck

Sair Shree Goddess of wealth

Sakiah Shakrah Indra

Sawara Shiva-Eshwar God Shiva

Yauk Yaksha Divine being

Wad Budh Mercury

The Kaba temple which was misappropriated and captured by Muslims was originally an International Vedic Shrine. The ancient Vedic scripture Harihareswar Mahatmya mentions that Lord Vishnu's footprints are consecrated in Mecca. An important clue to this fact is that Muslims call this holy precint Haram which is a deviation of the Sanskrit term Hariyam, i.e. the precint of Lord Hari alias Lord Vishnu. The relevant stanza reads:

"Ekam Padam Gayayantu

MAKKAYAANTU Dwitiyakam

Tritiyam Sthapitam

Divyam Muktyai Shuklasya Sannidhau"


The Shiv Ling at The Kaba. It was broken in seven places and now is held together by a silver band.

The Black Stone which is the Shiv Emblem (also known as Sange Aswad which is a corrupted form of the Sanskrit word Sanghey Ashweta--meaning non-white stone) still survives in the Kaba as the central object of Islamic veneration. All other Vedic Idols could be found buried in the precincts or trampled underfoot in labyrinthine subterranean corridors if archaeological excavations are undertaken. The Black Stone has been badly mutilated, its carved base has disappeared and the stone itself is broken at seven places. It's parts are now held together by a silver band studded with silver nails. It lies half buried in the South Eastern portion of the Kaba Wall. The term Kaba itself is a corruption of the Sanskrit word Gabha (Garbha + Graha) which means Sanctum.

In addition, in the inscriptions from Hajja and its neighborhood was found a votive vessel dedicated by members of two tribes called Rama and Somia. Rama and Soma are Vedic deities, Rama is of the Solar dynasty and Soma is of the Lunar Dynasty. The moon god was called by various names in pre-Islamic times , one of them was Allah. Allah had 3 children, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Manat. Al-Lat and Al-Uzza were both feminine deities. Alla is another name for the Hindu goddess Durga. It is obvious that the goddess Al-Lat was Alla (Durga) and Al-Uzza was Oorja (energy or life force also known as Shakti). Manat was none other than Somnath which is another name for Lord Shiva. One significant point to note that Soma in Sanskrit means Moon and Nath means Lord. Thus the Kaba itself was dedicated to the Moon God Somnath alias Shiv and the word Somnath was corrupted to Manat. The famous Black Stone is none other than the ShivLing of Makkeshwar alias Mecca. Lord Shiva is always shown with a crescent Moon on his head and every Shiva temple is supposed to have a sacred water spring representing the Ganges. The Crescent Moon pinnacle of the Kaba and the Zamzam spring (actually Zamza from Ganga) are irrefutable testaments to the Vedic origins of the Kaba.

Maqam-E-Ibrahim or more appropriately the pedestal of Brahma.

Muslims from all over the world pay homage to this shrine. This shrine is actually the pedestal of Brahma. Notice that the word, Ibrahim is actually a corruption of the word, Brahma. The octogonal grill which is a Vedic design, protects the holy footprints which represent the start of the creation nearly 2000 million years ago. Before it was captured by the Muslims it was an international shrine of the Vedic trinity.

In fact the names of the holiest of Muslim cities Mecca and Medina come from the Sanskrit words Makha-Medini which means the land of Fire-Worship. Even the most ancient names of these 2 cities were Mahcorava-which came from Mahadeva (Lord Shiva) and Yathrabn - which came from Yatra-Sthan (place of pilgrimage).

Islam came into being about 1372 years ago. It is well known that over 7500 years ago, at the time of the Mahabharat War, Kurus ruled the world. The scions of that family administered the different regions. Prophet Muhammed himself and his family were adherents of Vedic culture. The Encyclopedia Islamia admits as much when it says: "Muhammed's grandfather and uncles were hereditary priests of the Kaba temple which housed 360 idols!"

According to Arab traditions, Muhammad is a title. We do not know what name his parents had given him. We do however know that the central object of worship which survives at the Kaba today is a Shivling. That was allowed to remain there because that was the faceless family deity of Muhammad's family. One of the original names of Lord Shiv is Mahadev (The Great God) therefore it is entirely possible Muhammad came from Mahadev. This appears fairly certain because the Arabs still have a Mahadevi sect. Moreover the title Mehdi of a Muslim chief is also a malpronounciation of the term Mahadeva. According to Sanskrit etymology the term Muhammad implies 'a person of great inspiration' - 'Mahan

Muhammad's uncle was one of the resident priests of the Shiv temple known as "Kaaba". This sacred sanctum was decorated in an extremely rich and beautiful fashion. The Kaaba was astronomically oriented to face the winds. The minor axis of the rectangular base of the Kaaba was solistically aligned towards summer sunrise and winter sunset. It contained 360 statues of Vedic deities and was a shrine primarily associated with sun worship. The temple was an architectural representation of an interlocking set of theories covering virtually all creation and comprehending chemistry, physics, cosmology, meteorology and medicine. Each wall or corner of the Kaaba was associated with a specific region of the world. Thus this glorious Hindu temple was made to symbolically represent a microcosm of the universe. The Arabs would face east when praying. This representation of a microcosm demonstrated by the eight directional structure was derived from the Tantric pattern (Refer to Figure 1) of Hinduism. Right at the centre of the Kaaba was the octogonal pedestal of Bramha the creator. Today this very pedestal is called Maqam-E-Ibrahim by the Muslims. A tantric pattern defines the structure of Kaaba

Muhammad destroyed all 360 idols, but even he could not summon the courage to completely obliterate the Shivling in the Kaaba. He entered the temple and kissed the black stone. The Shivling was so sacred that the man who so detested idol- worship ended up kissing the largest idol in the Kaaba. Later his followers in a fit of piety broke the Shivling and then out of remorse repatched it together again. Today it lies broken at seven places and held together by a silver band studded with silver nails, bearing the name "Sangey Aswad" which came from the Sanskrit Ashwet meaning non-white or black stone.

On 1st January AD 630, the Prophet of Islam and 10,000 of his followers set out on the expedition to conquer Mecca. Their sole purpose of mind was to subvert all traces of the ancientmost religion of their forefathers. Nothing was to be considered sarcosanct, anything that was connected with Arabia's glorious Vedic heritage was to be defiled and distorted. Before setting out for Mecca, Muhammad had managed to turn his father-in-law and previous enemy Abu Sofian, leader of the Quraysh, into a traitor. Abu Sofian rode ahead of the Prophet's army into Mecca. Upon reaching he screamed at the townspeople, "Muhammad is coming, Muhammad is coming, he will be here with a force that we cannot resist".

Note: The Works "The Life & times of Muhammad" by Sir John Glubb, "Mohammed & the Rise of Islam" by D. S. Margoliouth, "The Art of Jordan" by Piotr Bienkowski, "Deities & Dolphins" by Nelson Glueck and "Hindu Temples: What Happened to Them?- Volume 2" by Sita Ram Goel have been used to compose this article.


There are many factual traditions from all over the world that have written by Scholars, Parsi have their traditions and claims of the Ka'aba

The various stories and traditions points to the following

1, the Ka'aba was there thousands of years before Muhammad
2, It was a place of worship
3, worship was based on prophetic tradition and scripture
4, It was connected to both the East (Indian and Persian Empires that stretch as far as China and Wesy as far as Egypt including Palestine and Jarusalem
5, Prophets were sent over time to mankind as they deviated from the worship of one GOD and the oneness of God
6, The prophetic traditions were relevant to the time in which they were sent
7, Muhammad was the final messenger that merged the wisdom of the ages and came to show the world the correct way of worshipping ALLAH, reverence of the Prophets, the meaning of the Holy sites, the perfection of character.

The ka'aba is central to the direction of worship, not an object of worship but a unifying symbol for all races.

And ALLAH knows best.
May ALLAH bestow his mercy on us
ALLAh is the king of the day of DEEN (Judgement)
ALLAH Alone do we aorship and his aid alone do we seek
May ALLAH guide us and keep us on his straight path
The path of the righteous who came before us
Not the path of those that incurred his wrath
nor the Path of those that has gone astray

Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 04, 2010, 06:26:00 AM
Everything goes to your spam storage until you start answering questions and ENGAGE in DIALOGUE.
You left unanswered questions like that above elsewhere as well. Please address all of these questions.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=466.msg5930#msg5930
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.msg5797#msg5797
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on July 04, 2010, 03:16:09 PM
I answered your Question on the black stone and you send it to spam because you dont like the answer!!!

The black stone is evidence that ALLAH had sent prophets to Arabia and that certain of the pagan worship was based on older scripture, have a look at the Vedic claims that Ka'aba used to be a Hindu temple and the black stone central to the worship. Muhammad mere continued in prophetic tradition and venerated the black stone as the previous prophets did.

Islamic scholars believe that 125000 prophets were sent to mankind over time from Adam, we do not know all there names, all their traditions and revelations. The ones we do no are recorded in Scripture Approximately 25, all with the same message worship the ONE GOD and the ONeness of GOD!! only
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 04, 2010, 03:27:15 PM
I answered your Question on the black stone and you send it to spam because you dont like the answer!!!

I removed it to spam because it wasn't an answer at all.
I restored it (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1079.msg6374#msg6374) so all could see what you describe as an answer to a yes or no question.
IT DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION AT ALL. It was pure obfuscation OUTSIDE OF MY QUESTION. And you still didn't answer my question with this post.
A bunch of copy and pasted Paran, Mecca, Baca blather that you have already included in other posts that you have already gotten answers to. It's impossible for a Muslim to be concise because it makes it easier for a lie to be distinguished from truth.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.15

Was the very same black stone, venerated by Arab pagans before Mohammed, or not?
Did Arab pagans circumambulate the kaaba and black stone in ceremony or not?

Yes or No?

See how easy it would make things if you simply answered YES? Since you know and I know that is the truth?

The fact is you bow toward and circumambulate the very same black stone that the pagans circumambulated.
That's a simple matter of fact, isn't it?
Why do you suppose you are so reluctant to admit it? Are you ashamed of the 5th pillar of Islam now that you have seen it's pagan origins?
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 04, 2010, 03:39:52 PM
The black stone is evidence that ALLAH had sent prophets to Arabia and that certain of the pagan worship was based on older scripture, have a look at the Vedic claims that Ka'aba used to be a Hindu temple and the black stone central to the worship. Muhammad mere continued in prophetic tradition and venerated the black stone as the previous prophets did.

What "prophets" engaged in pagan Arabian Star Family worship around the kaaba?
Or are you trying to say that the pagan idol worshipers were actually engaged in worship of the God of the scriptures?

Islamic scholars believe that 125000 prophets were sent to mankind over time from Adam, we do not know all there names, all their traditions and revelations.

The reason you don't know is because THE ENTIRETY of Islamic "history" was a 7th and 8th century AD creation. PURE FICTION. So those like Ishak and Tabari left that blank for you, while writing a preposterous history that is laughable.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.0

The ones we do no are recorded in Scripture Approximately 25, all with the same message worship the ONE GOD and the ONeness of GOD!! only

NONE of the prophets of the scriptures WERE EVER in the place where Mecca was eventually built in the 4th century AD.

If you believe they were, which 25 "prophets" were they?

What is the difference between the ceremonies that Muslims practice today, like Tawaf and the Sa'ee, from the way the pagans practiced those ceremonies before Mohammed?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=59.0
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on July 04, 2010, 04:11:15 PM
Quote
Was the very same black stone, venerated by Arab pagans before Mohammed, or not?
Did Arab pagans circumambulate the kaaba and black stone in ceremony or not?
Yes or No?

See how easy it would make things if you simply answered YES? Since you know and I know that is the truth?

The fact is you bow toward and circumambulate the very same black stone that the pagans circumambulated.
That's a simple matter of fact, isn't it?
Why do you suppose you are so reluctant to admit it? Are you ashamed of the 5th pillar of Islam now that you have seen it's pagan origins?


Dear Peter, well actually thank you Peter
You have been inspirational, I started to ask questions and found very interesting answers
Yes the stone is venerated by all Muslims and I have to ask why and the reason is that the pagans did it and where did they get it from, well apparently the Indians have the answer,

Is GOD unfair, well no, did GOD not send prophets and warners to everyone on earth? well yes he did, is the rituals Muhammad's own doing, he never participated in anything other than the placing back of the stone and never venerated it until commanded to!!

Tawaaf aorund the ka'aba was changed, as commanded by ALLAH and so it goes on, all the practices based on earlier prophetic, traditions,
belief and conviction of Abraham, his sacrifice, his Journey, his wife running for water, the water,
Moses and the Pharoah and the Prophetic laws (all Islamic Laws Now)
Wisdom of Solomon
Faith of Job (through trials and tribulations)
Faith of Jonas
David and Goliath (One man against the falsehood of the day)
Handsome like Joseph
Jesus Messiah born of mary(teaching love Hope and Charity) all Islamic laws

Muhammad gave us the wisdom and the prayers of all the prophets

ITs not pagan worship, or plagiarized or stolen or imitated, or falsified or soothsaying, or poetry competitions or the beast or the mark of the beast, it is simply a guide to perfecting your character, by perfecting your relationship with ALLAH.

And ALLAH knows best.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 04, 2010, 04:18:13 PM
Quote
Was the very same black stone, venerated by Arab pagans before Mohammed, or not?
Did Arab pagans circumambulate the kaaba and black stone in ceremony or not?
Yes or No?

See how easy it would make things if you simply answered YES? Since you know and I know that is the truth?

The fact is you bow toward and circumambulate the very same black stone that the pagans circumambulated.
That's a simple matter of fact, isn't it?
Why do you suppose you are so reluctant to admit it? Are you ashamed of the 5th pillar of Islam now that you have seen it's pagan origins?


Dear Peter, well actually thank you Peter
You have been inspirational, I started to ask questions and found very interesting answers
Yes the stone is venerated by all Muslims and I have to ask why and the reason is that the pagans did it and where did they get it from, well apparently the Indians have the answer,

I would like to thank you very sincerely for finally becoming conversational, rather than copy and pasting a bunch of stuff that has already been answered to.

If you believe the Indians have the answer then perhaps you should become a Hindu.

Is GOD unfair, well no, did GOD not send prophets and warners to everyone on earth? well yes he did, is the rituals Muhammad's own doing, he never participated in anything other than the placing back of the stone .....

That's right. He threw out 359 idols but saved one to appease the pagans. The very same stone idol that Muslims venerate, bow toward, travel to and circumambulate today - just as the pagans did.

...... and never venerated it until commanded to!!

You mean until Mohammed SAID he was commanded to.
He said Allah commanded him to sexually assault female prisoners too.
He also said he rode on a flying animal to Jerusalem, Heaven and back to Mecca by morning.
Do you really believe that God told Mohammed to venerate the very same black stone idol that the pagans venerated? Does that seem reasonable to you?
Did Abraham break all of his father's idols except one? Except his favorite perhaps? Except the one that was considered the most powerful idol? No.
Did Mohammed get rid of them all except the favorite? Yes.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 04, 2010, 04:24:39 PM
Tawaaf aorund the ka'aba was changed, as commanded by ALLAH and so it goes on, all the practices based on earlier prophetic, traditions,

Indeed. The traditions of the pagan Arabian Star Family worshipers. They continued to perform their pagan ceremonies and then the Muslims joined them shoulder to shoulder, right up until the last Hajj of Mohammed when they finally kicked the pagans out of their own ritual.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 689:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'

Can you imagine naked pagans and Muslims performing Tawaf?

And since there is not A SINGLE SHRED of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD, or it's Kaaba before the 5th, then it is an absolute that it was the pagans that built the Kaaba and instigated the pagan rituals there.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 04, 2010, 04:33:42 PM
belief and conviction of Abraham, his sacrifice, his Journey, his wife running for water, the water, .....

This is a big fat Mohammedan lie. First Hagar was Abraham's wife Sarah's servant.
Second, Mecca is over a thousand kilometers from where Abraham ever was, and over 1200 kilometers from where is was buried near Hebron. Please bring the EVIDENCE that Abraham, Hagar or Ishmael were ever where Mecca was eventually built, to the appropriate thread.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.0

......Moses and the Pharoah and the Prophetic laws (all Islamic Laws Now)
Wisdom of Solomon
Faith of Job (through trials and tribulations)
Faith of Jonas
David and Goliath (One man against the falsehood of the day)
Handsome like Joseph
Jesus Messiah born of mary(teaching love Hope and Charity) all Islamic laws

Is that supposed to be the list of "prophets" that you claim were in Mecca?

Muhammad gave us the wisdom and the prayers of all the prophets

ITs not pagan worship, or plagiarized or stolen or imitated, .......

But that is EXACTLY what it is. It is the very same rituals that the pagan moon, sun and star as well as jinn/demon worshipers engaged in.

For example, the running back and forth from Safa and Marwah is what they did when they had stone idols of the most venerated priest and prestess of the Arabian Jinn religion placed on those two hills.
Mohammed's grandfather dug the well of Zamzam and dedicated it to Asaf and Neila. He almost sacrificed his son - Mohammed's father - to the two stone idols.
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 04, 2010, 04:37:17 PM
......... or falsified or soothsaying, or poetry competitions or the beast ......

Mohammed's Islamic empire is the kingdom "beast" as revealed through the prophets Daniel and John.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=12.0

....... or the mark of the beast, .......

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1308.0

...... it is simply a guide to perfecting your character, by perfecting your relationship with ALLAH.

So that's why Sunnis murder Shiites?

And ALLAH knows best.

"Allah" is the name of the pagan moon god. It will never be a NAME of God. Just as was prophesied of the false prophet Mohammed and his kingdom beast.

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on July 04, 2010, 04:56:08 PM
Quote
"Allah" is the name of the pagan moon god. It will never be a NAME of God.

Surely you cannot be that ignorant of the language of the prophets and Jesu, well if you are a simple minded example might help to clear things up for you:

al elah(ALLA) The GOD, AL the one and only elah(GOD)
from the first scripture revealed to the Cross, elah elah (al elah) ALLAH

Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".The Christian Arabs of today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'.[6] (Even the Arabic-descended Maltese language of Malta, whose population is almost entirely Roman Catholic, uses Alla for 'God'.) Arab Christians for example use terms All?h al-?ab (???? ????) meaning God the Father, All?h al-ibn (???? ?????) mean God the Son, and All?h al-r?? al-quds (???? ????? ?????) meaning God the Holy Spirit (See God in Christianity for the Christian concept of God).
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 05, 2010, 06:39:10 AM
(Disappeared then restored from database)

Quote
"Allah" is the name of the pagan moon god. It will never be a NAME of God.

Surely you cannot be that ignorant of the language of the prophets and Jesu, ......

If you are suggesting it was Arabic, that is pure foolishness. Particularly the Arabic of the Quran which was the dialect of the Quraish which was quite new on the world scene.

"Arabs remained illiterate (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cJ1unm6FmnMJ:prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_05_Can_Qusayy_Scam.Islam+arabic+modern+language+prophet+of+doom&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) throughout the millennia, which is why we know so little about them. And it is why they knew so little about the world that engulfed them. Their language was derived from Aramaic, the dominant tongue of history's initial millennia. But Arabic found neither stylus nor pen for one hundred generations. By Muhammad’s time, less than one in a hundred Arabians could write. Classical Arabic, the language in which the Qur'an would come to be written, was just beginning to evolve in Syria."

Arabic evolved from Aramaic (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=arabic+evolved+from+aramaic&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=C9PNcK7oxTNmgHIvwygS59LH_CwAAAKoEBU_QiD90&fp=36ec6be010d257f)
See what pure unmitigated nonsense you have been taught to believe?

.... well if you are a simple minded ......

My friend, it is you that must void your mind of scripture, history, archaeology and geography until you have achieved the mind of a 7th century Arabian desert-dwelling illiterate.

..... example might help to clear things up for you:

al elah(ALLA) The GOD, AL the one and only elah(GOD) <br />from the first scripture revealed to the Cross, elah elah (al elah) ALLAH

Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".

That's right. They use it as a term meaning God. To describe deity.
But Muslims use it as a NAME for God. That's why your first pillar reads "there is no ilah but Allah". So ilah is obviously the generic Arabic term for God.
"Allah" will never be a NAME for God because it does not mean "I AM" - YHWH - Yahweh, in any language on earth.
That's why every time you call God's NAME "Allah" you speak blasphemy, because your false prophet taught you to.

Exd 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Other titles in scripture are used as descriptive terms for attributes for God, but He has only one name. The name He told us is His name.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=577.0

The Christian Arabs of today have no other word for "God" than &"Allah".[6]

And I would not be surprised if they discover the error of their ways and repent in this information age.

(Even the Arabic-descended Maltese language of Malta, whose population is almost entirely Roman Catholic, uses Alla for "God";.) Arab Christians for example use terms All?h al-?ab (???? ????) meaning God the Father, All?h al-ibn (???? ?????) mean God the Son, and All?h al-r?? al-quds (???? ????? ?????) meaning God the Holy Spirit (See God in Christianity for the Christian concept of God).

See what happened? You ignored almost the entirety of my reply, and picked the last point, that you thought you could make hay with. But it backfired on you just like all the rest of the lies of Mohammedanism.
   
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on July 05, 2010, 06:28:34 PM
Dear Peter

Everything I type is relevant and not spam, you have so little understanding that I have to begin at the basics in order for you to grasp simple Religious concepts, before you are able to understand your role as a human being.You are not a person that listens to logic, you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity, you present opinions as evidence. Most disturbing is that you quote from the Quran and Hadith out context and verses you have no knowledge of, you act out of ignorance, and your disrespect is not dialogue.   

PICTURE YOURSELF IN THE YEAR 610 SURROUNDED BY THE KIND OF SLAVE WHIPPING, CHILD MURDERING, TRIBAL DISCRIMINATION, JEWISH EXPLOITATION (JEWS OUTNUMBERED ARABS IN MADINA) IN AN IDOL WORSHIPPING REGION. WHERE THE ONLY PLACE THEY DIDNT KILL YOU WAS AROUND THE KA'ABA. Picture a place that attracted people from Africa, in the east and as far as the borders of china in the west converging on a place of worship that has been there for millennia Your Logic you have did not exist and would not exist if Muhammad did not rise as a Prophet of ALLAH. the entire world acknowledges this except for a handful of arrogant stubborn ignorant scholars. Check Islamic dynasties and see the difference between the contributions made by Islam and the Muslims in comparison to the rest of the world. Google history of coffee to begin with.

I had a long hard look at all religions, all the deviated religions do not understand the Holy spirit and end up worshipping one, ore more like the Xhosa in Southern Africa worship the Spirits of ancestors, Hindus worship reincarnated spirits of humans and calls them divine, Red Indian in USA is known to believe in spirits of animals, Mayans, Egyptians and Christians all worshipping spirits and makes a human being divine all the same deviation clothed in a different color cloth. That is completely against the teachings of the Prophets from the Time of ADAM to Muhammad and includes Jesus messiah born of Mary (the virgin).

I don't have to prove that the term ALLAH is the only name of GOD, it is in all the scriptures written in Aramaic, Arabic, Hindi Persion and Jewish (hebrew) Scriptures. I don't have to prove the Ka'aba is the first house of worship on earth, Scriptures of five different regions confirm it, Jewish scriptures, Christians, Zoroastrian, Hindus and Buddhist, and If I search hard enough I will find others, I am certain that if you wanted to you could find more evidence of it than I can.

Funny you havent peiced together the history of your own Bible. What you have is opinion of writers about Abraham and Isaac and Ishmael and Jacob, Moses, David and Jesus, not documented fact, and it is not whether we accept it or reject it, thats what it is, the stories have no relevance no purpose no meaning, they are merely historical events to christians, only Muslims honor the prophets of the scriptures in worship, you call Islamic practice pagan, how Ironic, I have five pagan accounts of virgin birth, crucifixion on a cross and rising from the dead after three days.

The New testament is not the Bible of Jesus, it is an opinion that is why it is according to and not by, The opinion of the the interpretation of the the rewording of and opinion that suits the Romans of the Time. Had to be translated into Latin with changes in order to get the Romans to accept it. The Romans were then Rulers of that region. The superpower of the day so to speak. And as history has shown us, all who think they are super powers, disappear into history like a golden era that never returns.

ALLAH Grants to whom he wills and withholds from whom he wills, he guides whom he wills and leaves to go astray the arrogant wrong doer.

I read through your posts they are not worth wasting time on if you persist in the habit of being disrespectful about matters you clearly care not to understand. I cannot stand racism and you my friend think yourself superior to other races. It demonstrates the low level of your intelligence. I get a picture of a  rogue that curses and swears all the time, not caring who he insults.
Your knowledge is inferior and your questions clear indications of your lack of understanding of GOD, Holy spirit and salvation.

Advice of all the prophets and this one is repeated by Muhammad (may ALLAH bestow peace be upon him
There is no God but ALLAH
The Ruh (spirit) is the command of ALLAH AMR is cammand and it is within all of us, and is the essence of life and it has to return to ALLAH, the RUH is place in a state of purity and has to return to ALLAH in that state of Purity, Islam shows you how to purify your Spirit. From ALLAH we all come (Jesus ascended to ALLAH and he will return to earth to live out his life like all humans and his Ruh (spirit) will return to ALLAH like all of our spirits) and unto ALLAH is our return.



With Kind Regards in the Spirit of learning and teaching.

And ALLAH knows best what is true and correct
I pray that ALLAh forgive me for any sins that I have committed and if I am the reason your heart does not soften towards the truth.

MAY ALLAH GUIDES US ALL IN OUR ENDEAVOURS TO GAIN KNOWLEDGE AND THE TRUTH>

ONLY SATAN THINKS HE IS RIGHT AND IN NO NEED OF GUIDANCE< MAY ALLAH PROTECT US FROM SATANS PLOTS AND WHISPERING>

Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: resistingrexmundi on July 06, 2010, 11:29:24 AM
... you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity...

Two points I would like to address.

1. At what point does disagreeing with someone make them a racist?

2. You haven't presented any evidence. You have just shared opinion and presupposition. When confronted with verses from the koran and hadith that have consistently shown Muhammad to be immoral and his religion a pagan rip-off you obfuscate instead of actually answering questions.

In the future keep personal attacks to yourself or at least be prepared to give evidence of their validity.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on July 06, 2010, 05:16:49 PM
In the Name of ALLAH the Most Merciful the most benevolent
ALL praise is due to ALLAH the king of the DAY of Judgement


Quote
Two points I would like to address.

1. At what point does disagreeing with someone make them a racist?

2. You haven't presented any evidence. You have just shared opinion and presupposition. When confronted with verses from the koran and hadith that have consistently shown Muhammad to be immoral and his religion a pagan rip-off you obfuscate instead of actually answering questions.

In the future keep personal attacks to yourself or at least be prepared to give evidence of their validity.
Posted on: July 05, 2010, 04:28:34 PM Posted by: AnnaMuslim

Firstly I pointed to the fact that the Arab, Indian, Persian and african Scholars are clearly missing from your quoatations and when one brings forth any argument from any of them you say it cannot be because European writers disagree. The Greek persian, Roman and jewish Phylosophies from Aristotle, Plato to ptolemy was compiled edited and written by Islamic scholars and handed to the West as a gift for your renaissamce to be possible, Please get a copy of the video produced by Empire of faith, produce by Robert Gardner and narratted by Ben kingsley and then we can have a discussion. on the origin of your text and the baselesness of your racism.

Secondly You are presenting the evidence but refuse to accept it, DID The OLD TESTAMENT SAY :hear ye o' israel your lord god is on ( Laa illaa ha illalla) There is no God but ALLAH and he is One.

Now count the amount of Prophets mentioned, and every nation was sent a prophet and very nation had a warner but human beings are heedless of their duty to ALLAH, they twist and as the Bible says 

I Say the Stone is kept as an object of reverence as it must have had significance to previos prophets you insist that it is pagan worship, I say the Pagans must have taken their worship from previous prophets and deviated bothe the meaning and ritual and importance as many religious scholars across the entire spectrum of religions do, You say Muhammad followed pagan worship, this is not a discussion, this is an arrogant child insisting on something or having his own way!!!!!


I say that the inference that you draw is unfounded, how could you possibly think like a 7th century Jewish woman??? You are attributing your foul values and projecting what you believe on to the Quran and the Hadith

Start with the basics of the Quran and build your understanding up to the wars and the captives and the concubines, you have a small mind driven by western corrupted values systems.

GOD MADE THINGS LAWFYUL AND UNLAWFUL< you like a pagan makes the the opposite

CIRCUMCISION I can Assure you Jesus was circumcised like every Muslim and Jew is
Baptized (Ghusl - a mandatory bath for a Muslim purifying himself)
JESUS Prayed (Made Salaah like we do) He fell on his face like we do.
The disciples made a circle around him (Google Sufi Practices) A crcle is made and GOD is Praised
Jesus fasted for many days (Muslims fast for many days)
Jesus gave charity (Sadaka is huge in ISlam) Setting a slave free is sadaka
Jesus taught brotherhood and keeping ties (It is FARD in ISlam)
Jesus had a beard and wore robes ( I give you one quess as to who closely resembles Jesus)
Jesus did not have a Temple (ALLAH made the whole world a mosque) you can pray (SALAAH anywhere)JESUS wished to pray in the house of ALLAH (HOUSE OF THE LORD) (BAITULLAAH- the Ka'aba)

You want evidence, you have all the evidence you choose to attribute your own meanings to it, you fail to understand its context and purpose, you harp on things that are neither fundamental or even obligatory, or even Nafl (EXTRA)

KISSING THE BLACK STONE IS NOT OBLIGATORY, IT is not fundamental to being a muslim or Islam, It is a Tradition of the Prophet, I can do it out of reverence for the Prophet or I can choose not to do it, does not make me less of a muslim.
I DONT VENERATE IT

AS far as my personal attacks are concerned they are my impressions that the writers give me of themselves when they have no respect and repeat foul mouthed comments without any knowledge or concern, this is very much the way of a PAGAN>

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
MAY ALLAH GUIDE US to the Straight path

MAY ALLAH FORGIVE ME FOR MY SHORTCOMINGS
MAY ALLAH
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 07, 2010, 06:32:36 AM
Dear Peter

Everything I type is relevant and not spam, ......

But this very post demonstrates the opposite of your claims. I went point by point through the entirety of your prior post, and rather than respond to my replies point by point you ignored all of them but one. Then you turn around with more of this blah, blah, blah.

...... you have so little understanding that I have to begin at the basics in order for you to grasp simple Religious concepts, before you are able to understand your role as a human being.You are not a person that listens to logic, you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, ........

What race claims a franchise on Islam?
None of course. You level false accusations of racism rather than replying with substance.

...... you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity, ......

So far all you have offered is 18th century Englishman Gibbon's misunderstanding. Why don't you present evidence rather than blather? Try starting with this Wikipedia article "Ancient Towns in Saudi Arabia (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAncient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia&ei=n1U0TL_aI4GC8ga_mqnxAg&usg=AFQjCNGCNuuk-gRDTI1L6-Mim1iU-DdpYA)".

Bring your EVIDENCE from the hindus, Arabs and Persians to make your case.
Please see "CLASSICAL WRITERS SHOW MECCA COULD NOT HAVE BEEN BUILT BEFORE THE 4th CENTURY AD"
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.0

Why don't you try reading it this time? You even added vacuous comments to the thread earlier that added absolutely nothing. Why not try bringing some EVIDENCE to support your false accusations?
If you had actually read the thread you would have noticed that those authors quoted were not Americans.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 07, 2010, 06:51:11 AM
........ you present opinions as evidence.

This is patently false as clearly shown in the EVIDENCE of these threads.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.0
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1132.0

And what did you bring? Empty OPINION and continuous false accusations. Where is your EVIDENCE?
Muslims always believe that somehow when they speak a falsehood, that it will somehow magically become truth, but your self-delusion is on display for all to see.

Most disturbing is that you quote from the Quran and Hadith out context and verses you have no knowledge of, you act out of ignorance, and your disrespect is not dialogue.   

I'm afraid it is you that is ignorant to Islam. You need to pay closer attention to the Middle East Muslims that GET Islam.

PICTURE YOURSELF IN THE YEAR 610 SURROUNDED BY THE KIND OF SLAVE WHIPPING, CHILD MURDERING, TRIBAL DISCRIMINATION, .......

Wouldn't be a surprise of the pagan Arabs since even Mohammed's occult worshiping grandfather nearly sacrificed Mohammed's father to the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn/demon religion at the well of Zamzam that he had dug and dedicated to veneration of them.
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

....... JEWISH EXPLOITATION ......

But were the Jews sacrificing their children to jinn/demon worship? No. They had been following God for 2,000 years before Mohammed made up his phony STAND-ALONE 7th century religion.

And how Hitleresque of you.
When a bunch of lazy people sit around and do nothing, while criticizing another group as exploitative, that is in fact hard working, enterprising and productive, and thereby operate the means of production because they created it. And still do.
Just as the Jews produced and exported over a hundred million dollars worth of produce from greenhouses in Gaza, when 50 years before it had been a barren desert wasteland.
Then the so-called Palestinians took it over and gutted out all the greenhouses, and today beg for handouts from the world community. You see? The Muslims as a group, haven't changed any more than the Jews have as a group, over all those years.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=494.0

But Mohammed attacked and slaughtered those hard working Jewish farmers and their sons, that kept to themselves, so he could steal their wives, children, and all of the property they had built, and camels and date trees they had labored over, and wealth they had produced.

Look at how the world has been blessed by the Jews.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1534.0

..... (JEWS OUTNUMBERED ARABS IN MADINA) IN AN IDOL WORSHIPPING REGION. WHERE THE ONLY PLACE THEY DIDNT KILL YOU WAS AROUND THE KA'ABA.

Not something I would brag about if I were you. Basically you are saying that pagan superstitions saved Arabs formed oases here and there to help prevent them from murdering each other to extinction.
However Sunnis still target for murder innocent Shiite men, women and children. But then Sunnis don't consider Shiites "innocent" do they.

Picture a place that attracted people from Africa, .......

Is that supposed to be some kind of sick twisted joke? Africans were captured and pressed into service as slaves by Islam until the late 20th century. See the nonsense you have been taught?
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=456.0
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 07, 2010, 06:58:57 AM
Dear Peter

Everything I type is relevant and not spam, you have so little understanding that I have to begin at the basics in order for you to grasp simple Religious concepts, before you are able to understand your role as a human being.You are not a person that listens to logic, you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity, ........

You are now required to back up your accusations, before you post any more, unrelated to that backing up.

Where did I refute the "evidence" that you claim I refuted? How can one refute something that one hasn't seen?
Where is the evidence from the Hindus, Arabs and Persians to which you refer?
Please bring the EVIDENCE, and post it at the following thread link so we can compare the EVIDENCE.
I of course mean historical evidence. Not that 7th and 8th century created Islamic historical fiction penned by those like Ishak and Tabari, but the actual historical record, recorded by those living in or near the times during which it is recorded.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.0

......... you present opinions as evidence. Most disturbing is that you quote from the Quran and Hadith out context and verses you have no knowledge of, you act out of ignorance, and your disrespect is not dialogue.

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.    2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,    3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on July 07, 2010, 10:28:18 AM
Let me clear up the Black stone story for you.
I for one don't venerate it, I now actually think of it when I make my Salaah, A combination of physical, emotional and spiritual movements that align the soul with nature and ALLAH. I Salaah in the direction of Ka'aba, I amglad we do, Jerusalem has not had peace in the last 2000 years, too many invaders and corrupt leaders fighting and controversy.

I realise that you are not interested in what I believe, you want proof of the majesty of ~ALLAH then tell me what GOD calls himself, Please do not quote the Corrupted text that is a copy of Gilgamesh!!!

Please do not quote Paul or Peter or John or Q, or any Person for that matter Quote GOD!

(I dont expect you to because no-one has taught it to you. You dont speak with respect or reverence even when Quoting your own scripture, that is how I know that you are not GOD-fearing and neither is Ellis SKollfield and the atheist commentators of your so called references. Thats Right I have no respect for the men that have no belief in Religious matters!!

DOCTRINES (GOSPELS ACCORDING TO DOES NOT CONSTITUTE RELIGIOUS MATTERS) They are commentaries (EVERY BIBLE SCHOLAR KNOWS THAT.

ASK A QUESTION< YOU SEEM TO HAVE NONE< ONLY FALSE ACCUSATIONS

Would you say the needle is not in the haystack just because you cannot find it, that is and arrogant statement,

The historians cannot find evidence for Makkah because they are believing the wrong people, any evidence would be destroyed, not preserved as Makkah has been built and rebuilt over the centuries, as has the Ka'aba, Rebuilt is not the the same as built. The city lies in a valley that is prone to floods and over the centuries the city has been washed away a few times, do you want evidence, check to see floods in makkah as late as 2010.

Please, tell your scholars if they cannot understand something to keep their inferences false accusations, proposterous logic to their own kind, I do not take lightly to vanity of men that have hatred in their hearts,

WHAT WOULD JESUS DO, scoff, ridicule and insult a person, or would he pray for their salvation,

YOU have not once prayed for me in this FORUM, shows ho little you care for the advice of Jesus.

Ecclesiastes 3:17 I said to myself, "God will judge both the righteous man and the wicked man," for a time for every matter and for every deed is there.
King James Bible
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

No-one dies for sins every one will be brought to account!!

ALL Praise id Due to ALLAH (creator and sustainer of the universe)
May ALLAH guide us
May ALLAH forgive our sins
May ALLAH bestow peace and blessings on his beloved Prophet, Muhammad, his followers and family
 MAY ALLAH show bestow his mercy on us
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 07, 2010, 11:03:33 AM
Let me clear up the Black stone story for you.
I for one don't venerate it, ...........

That's the problem with having no firm convictions from being set adrift, rudderless, in a sea of falsehood.
Just a few posts ago you wrote
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1079.msg6398#msg6398

Dear Peter, well actually thank you Peter
You have been inspirational, I started to ask questions and found very interesting answers
Yes the stone is venerated by all Muslims and I have to ask why and the reason is that the pagans did it and where did they get it from, well apparently the Indians have the answer,

Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 07, 2010, 11:04:41 AM
YOU have not once prayed for me in this FORUM, shows ho little you care for the advice of Jesus.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

I've prayed for you over and over. What you are really asking is why don't I pray so that I may be seen of men the way the Pharisees loved to do, and Muslims love to do as well. In other words, why don't I put on a show for you.

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of  men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Islam - always the EXACT OPPOSITE.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=148.0

AP - December 06 (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=ap+beheading+somalia+prayer&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8), 2006 MOGADISHU, Somalia - "Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an Islamic courts official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days."
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 07, 2010, 11:05:05 AM
No more distractions. You have a task before you AnnaMuslim. You made several accusations. Now it's time to back them up beginning with this one.

Dear Peter

Everything I type is relevant and not spam, you have so little understanding that I have to begin at the basics in order for you to grasp simple Religious concepts, before you are able to understand your role as a human being.You are not a person that listens to logic, you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity, you present opinions as evidence. Most disturbing is that you quote from the Quran and Hadith out context and verses you have no knowledge of, you act out of ignorance, and your disrespect is not dialogue.  
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1079.msg6416#msg6416

Where did I "refute" the "evidence" that you claim I refuted? How can one refute something that one hasn't seen?

Where is the evidence from the Hindus, Arabs and Persians to which you refer?
Please bring the EVIDENCE, and post it at the following thread link so we can compare the EVIDENCE.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.0

I of course mean historical evidence. Not that 7th and 8th century created Islamic historical fiction penned by those like Ishak and Tabari, but the actual historical record, recorded by those living in or near the times during which it is recorded.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 07, 2010, 11:43:39 AM
The historians cannot find evidence for Makkah because they are believing the wrong people, any evidence would be destroyed, not preserved .....

Or are you here later saying that you built your false accusation against me on a purely fabricated lie, regarding the "evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians" that you claimed I "refuted"?
In this quote here you seem to suggest that you yourself actually agree there is no historical or archaeological record of Mecca, ever having existed prior to the 4th century AD.

Was your false accusation against me taqiyyah intended to fool onlookers gullible enough to buy into your fabrication?
Simply admit that it was a false accusation against me, based on a lie, and we can move on to your false accusation of racism.
Were you just duped into believing somebody else's lie that you then based your false accusation on? If so please provide the source.
Otherwise you are under obligation to present the "....evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity ...." that you claimed I "refuted".
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 08, 2010, 01:27:46 PM
At long last AnnaMuslim finally posts his heathen Hindu "proof" of his heathen Islamic religion. Moved to the thread I had requested it be posted in.
Absent a single shred of historical, archaeological, or geographical evidence.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.msg6476#msg6476

Ever unable to bring himself to answer simple questions like this one, posed in this thread, because the implications are so horrific.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1079.msg6355#msg6355
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 10, 2010, 05:12:02 AM
So when you fail to support, much less admit to, let alone apologize for, this false accusation .....

..... you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity ...

In the end, instead of bringing the evidence to support your false accusatioin, you change the subject and announce that you don't want to pursue the subject of the history of Islam - of course for obvious reasons - because there isn't any that isn't pure 7th and 8th century fiction.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.msg6526#msg6526

Further demonstrating that Muslim men become sociopathic from following Mohammed.
Demonstrated here as well
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=466.msg6417#msg6417

One would think that just Mohammed's carnal "paradise" of wine, chicken and multiple virgins to defile, would be enough to turn any intelligent 21st century man away from Mohammed's phony and reprobate "religion".
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=264.0
Mohammed's promise of virgins to defile not only in heaven, but also innocent children of the vanquished here on earth to defile, to keep his reprobate murderous (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1528.0), prisoner rapist (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1528.0), thieving (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=951.0) thugs in Mohammed's service.  
What do Mohammedan's wives think about their husbands longing to defile virgins in "paradise", with some even killing themselves in murderous attacks against innocent people, to advance the prospects.
What do Mohammedan women get in heaven? To cook the chicken?


"..... you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist,...."


Another false accusation. You yourself know I have had to suffer at least your failed "logic" for some time now.
To what European "logic" do you refer?
To what American "logic" do you refer?
What "race" is Islam?
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 10, 2010, 05:55:48 AM
The worship you talk about is not of the Black Stone....

Was the black stone one of the 360 idols that the pagans venerated (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1050.0) at the kaaba before Mohammed?

Yes or no?


I seek refuge in ALLAH from satan
I begin in the name of ALLAH the most merciful the most benefcent
All praise is due to ALLAH the creator of the entire Univerese


Dear peter
I obviously dont know how to answer you,....

That's right, you don't know how to answer because the ugly truth is apparent. You have no love of truth but rather a love of lies, because you follow the father of lies - Satan - through his prophet Mohammed.

The answer, of course, is a simple and undeniable "YES"!
You VENERATE, by bowing toward and circumambulating, the very same black stone idol that was one of the 360 idols that the pagans venerated and circumambulated before Mohammed.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1050.15

How is it that you seem to believe that simply repeating false nonsense, that you copy and pasted again, will somehow magically make it come true?
Even repeat posting Gibbon's misunderstanding of the very historical record that you denigrated!

.....regarding historical and archeological evidence from pagans, it is obviously a test of my emaan (faith) and a clear indication of your (Kufr) you do not present evidence that Makkah did not exist othre than the speculations of Dr Amari that he gets from pagan greek and Roman writers, and many scholars differ from his opinion and contradict everything he says:

Next AnnaMuslim goes on to quote the 7th century Quran of all things!

I am moving your repeat post to spam where you can revisit it.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1562.0
Please copy and paste, ONE AT A TIME, any points that were not already addressed the last times you posted it.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1132.msg6464#msg6464
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.15
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1539.msg6488#msg6488

You invited questions about Islam, but then you don't answer them. Why do you suppose that is?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.msg6529#msg6529

Quote
Otherwise you are under obligation to present the "....evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity ...." that you claimed I "refuted".

DID YOU READ THE HINDU ACCOUNTS OF HOW THEY BELIEVE THE KA'ABA TO BE A HINDU TEMPLE FROM ABOUT 7000 YEARS AGO, THAT ARABIA ONCE WAS PART OF THE HINDUSTAN EMPIRE????

So far, AFTER you made your false accusation against me, all you presented was a 1990 MUSLIM'S false exegesis of Hindu scriptures and litany of false presumptions that followed.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.msg6476#msg6476
Just like the false exegesis that you engaged in
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.msg6366#msg6366

Before bringing it you suggested that I "refuted" "evidence". Of course you had not presented evidence, nor to my knowledge does such evidence exist. So how could I have "refuted" it?
A late 20th century pop-paper spun by a Muslim on Hindu scripture - without historical reference - is no more historical than the Islamic history creators of the 7th and 8th century Hadith fiction, before him.

Like the Islamic "Gee even though they were written over a thousand years apart, the HEBREW name Baca, is kinda like the ARABIC name Bakka, so well, if we suggest that the name Bakka really means Mecca, then, golly that must mean the the Old Testament is referring to the temple Mecca that is 1200 miles from the temple in Jerusalem! Yea like dat! Let's ignore the rest of the context and present our "proof"!"
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1313.0
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: AnnaMuslim on July 12, 2010, 04:05:11 PM
Quote
Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
- Reply #44 on: July 06, 2010, 09:29:24 AM �
Quote
Quote from: AnnaMuslim on July 05, 2010, 04:28:34 PM
... you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity...

Two points I would like to address.

1. At what point does disagreeing with someone make them a racist?

2. You haven't presented any evidence. You have just shared opinion and presupposition. When confronted with verses from the koran and hadith that have consistently shown Muhammad to be immoral and his religion a pagan rip-off you obfuscate instead of actually answering questions.

In the future keep personal attacks to yourself or at least be prepared to give evidence of their validity.

MY POINT WITH MY COPYING AND PASTING IS THAT MANY SY MANY THINGS WITHOUT MERIT LIKE DR RAFAT< IW ASTED MY TIME READING HIS OPINION OF GREEK AND ROMAN WRITERS THAT HAVE BOOKS FRO CHURCH SCOLARS THAT HAS HAD TIME TO ALTER COPIES OF DOMENTS THAT ARE NOT EXISTENCE. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE Required, Your word can hardly standup against the word of the MAN that has the tilte of ALAMEEN.

Reading Dr Rafat Amari's highly opinionated (he says that he comes to conclusions) based on inconclusive evidence of pagan Greek and roman writers work that has been copied by scholars and translated by others,edited and in many cases interpretted (phrases like we assume that the writer means this or that place) with no cklarity wahtso, ever, DR RAFAT makes his assumptions as easily as one would say that the sea is blue and the earth is blue therefore it must be same thing, BRING ME EVIDENCE THAT THE SKY IS NOT THE SAME AS THE BLUE OCEAN)

WELL PETER AND DR RAFAT YOUR LOGIC IN MOST CASES would appeal TO THE IGNORANT, the DISBELIEVER OR PEOPLE THAT DESIRE TO ASCRIBE PARTNERS TO ALLAH (MUSHRIHK)

COMPLETE YOUR INVESTIGATION BEFORE YOU MAKE FALSE ALLEGATIONS< SPEAK TO THE PEOPLE AT THE TOPKAPI MUSEUM< SPEAK TO PEOPLE IN SAUDI ARABIA< AND PRESENT THE ARGUMENT FULLY NOT READ A COUPLE OF ALTERED DOCUMENTS AND MAKE A FALSE CLAIM BASED ON YOUR EMOTIONAL COPNDITIONING!!!!!

OR DONT YOU CONSIDER THAT THE TRUTH CAN COME FROM PERSION AND INDIAN SCHOLARS??

DONT ASK LAYMEN TO BRING EVIDENCE IF YOU SUCH A CELEBRATED SCHOLAR>

YOU DID NOT CONTACT THE SOURCE<THE HOLDERS OF ISLAMIC RELICS AND ARTIFACTS< I BELIEVE THAT TOPKAPI HOLDS ABOUT 650.

THEN PRESENT YOUR ARGUMENT.





Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 12, 2010, 07:04:09 PM
Quote
Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
- Reply #44 on: July 06, 2010, 09:29:24 AM �
Quote
Quote from: AnnaMuslim on July 05, 2010, 04:28:34 PM
... you only listen to European and Americanized logic and that makes you a racist, you refute evidence from Hindus and Arabs and Persians that the Ka'aba existed long before Christianity...

Two points I would like to address.

1. At what point does disagreeing with someone make them a racist?

2. You haven't presented any evidence. You have just shared opinion and presupposition. When confronted with verses from the koran and hadith that have consistently shown Muhammad to be immoral and his religion a pagan rip-off you obfuscate instead of actually answering questions.

In the future keep personal attacks to yourself or at least be prepared to give evidence of their validity.

MY POINT WITH MY COPYING AND PASTING IS THAT MANY SY MANY THINGS WITHOUT MERIT LIKE DR RAFAT< IW ASTED MY TIME READING HIS OPINION OF GREEK AND ROMAN WRITERS THAT HAVE BOOKS FRO CHURCH SCOLARS THAT HAS HAD TIME TO ALTER COPIES OF DOMENTS THAT ARE NOT EXISTENCE. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE Required, Your word can hardly standup against the word of the MAN that has the tilte of ALAMEEN.

Reading Dr Rafat Amari's highly opinionated (he says that he comes to conclusions) based on inconclusive evidence of pagan Greek and roman writers work that has been copied by scholars and translated by others,edited and in many cases interpretted (phrases like we assume that the writer means this or that place) with no cklarity wahtso, ever,....

That's the difficulty when a person is adrift without a rudder in a sea of falsehood. Truth has to be declared lies, and lies have to be declared truth.
Not long ago you were delighted to quote some of the very same historians you now condemn, in a ridiculous effort to suggest that they made reference the Meccan Ka'aba prior to the 4th century AD.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1132.msg6464#msg6464

But now you reject the very same historians, along with the rest of recorded history, because you are compelled to believe the 7th and 8th century created Mohammedan historical fiction, which is, of course absolutely incompatible with the actual historical record.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1121.0

But since then maybe you've finally learned that in order to follow Mohammed's STAND-ALONE thinly repackaged paganism, it is necessary to devoid one's mind of history, archaeology, geography and scripture, until one's mind matches that of a 7th century illiterate. But unfortunately for you Muslims failed in their effort to destroy prior recorded history.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1121.0
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 13, 2010, 02:13:15 PM
I am moving your post to spam until you segregate the portion related to this thread, from the portion that engages in gratuitous and unrelated bashing of God's 1600 year record.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1562.msg6610#msg6610

You can copy and paste the related portion back into this thread, and you can copy and paste and post the Scripture bashing on the related thread at this link.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=97.0
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
Post by: Peter on July 14, 2010, 01:43:32 PM
Baseless slander of the Quran and the Hadith does not make you scholar it makes you a slanderer and a liar.

But that's simply not true, and the truth is very simple. The BASIS of the whole point is that the Quran and Hadith were written in the 7th and 8th century AD, but Mohammed and his boys pretended it to be a historical record of times long before, with no foundation in any actual historical record whatsoever.

History isn't something that men sit down and decide to CREATE thousands of years AFTER THE FACT. History is recorded by those that live in or near the times that are written about.
Islamic "history" is provably nothing more than fiction - a fantasy - because nothing about it regards any actual record from before the "year of the elephant" (around Mohammed's birthday) when Muslims BEGAN recording Islamic history.
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA (Kaaba)
Post by: PeteWaldo on July 26, 2013, 01:35:48 PM
bump (22,000 views!)
Title: Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA (Kaaba)
Post by: PeteWaldo on September 12, 2016, 08:14:12 AM
Here's yet another Kaaba fable I was unfamiliar with:
http://sfbasic.org/site/true_islam/kaaba/yemeni_corner_of_kaaba.php