Author Topic: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA (Kaaba)  (Read 105133 times)

Peter

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http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/index.htm
    *  The Classical Writers and Mecca - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * Archaeology  and Mecca - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Bible and Mecca- By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Kaabah and the Arabian Star Worship - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Role of the Temple at Mecca in the Jinn Religion and in the Arabian Family Star Religion - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The True Story of the Construction of the Temple of Mecca - By Dr. Rafat Amari



Fron the Religion Research Institute
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm
(Pete's bolding and highlighting for lazy readers)

THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA

By Dr. Rafat Amari

The True dates for the Construction of the Temple of Mecca, the Digging of the Well of Zamzam, and the Transfer of the Black Stone to Mecca

Islamic claims that Abraham and Ishmael founded the temple in the city of Mecca are recognized as false, when we study the black Stone, which was the heart of the temple.

    Abraham never went to where Mecca was eventually built, nor did his son, Ishmael, or Ishmael's son, Nabaioth. Despite these facts, Ibn Ishak, Mohammed's biographer, claimed Abraham was responsible for building the temple at Mecca, and that it was then run by Ishmael, and eventually Nabaioth. The story, created by Ibn Ishak and his companions, goes on to say that after Nabaioth, the tribe of Jurhum, which they claim inhabited Mecca at the time of Abraham, took the responsibility to serve the Temple at Mecca. According to the story, they served until the tribe of Khuzaa'h came from Yemen. This was after the dam at Ma'rib began to show signs of damage and drove them away. The story continues that, when the tribe of Khuzaa'h came to Mecca, they defeated Jurhum. Jurhum then left Mecca to hide the black Stone of the temple and two golden gazelles. They hid them in the water spring called Zamzam, then covered the spring, the stone and the gazelles with dust so they would escape detection. [1] The date these things supposedly happened is critical.  According to the stories, Jurhum lived in Mecca until the Ma'rib dam was damaged, and the tribe of Khuzaa'h left Yemen. We know these things occurred around the year 150 A.D.

Islamic tradition is illogical when it talks about Jurhum and the hiding of a spring of water and the Black Stone.

If Jurhum's story were true, why did the classical authors, who visited and wrote about western Arabia mention all the tribes who were living there, even the tiny ones, but never once mention Mecca or the tribe of Jurhum? Second, after being defeated, how could Jurhum bury two precious golden gazelles and a revered stone belonging to Mecca's temple without any of the inhabitants noticing?   Any tribe leaving Mecca would surely take its golden treasure and not bury it in a public place, well-known to all.  And this spring of water was the only spring in Mecca. Third, the black Stone was  a revered stone. It is not easy to move it from its location in the temple, without people noticing where it was placed. According to Islamic claims, the war erupted over who should be responsible for the temple. How could a defeated Jurhum tribe succeed in moving the stone without the winning Khuzaa'h tribe intervening, or at least noticing where the stone had been hidden? The fourth argument concerns the spring of water itself. If it existed in western Arabia, its location would be important to remember. After all, water was especially important for the Arabians living in the desert. Islamic tradition claims this spring existed since the time of Abraham. If it were miraculously brought into existence when the angel Gabriel gave water to Hagar and her child, Ishmael, then its existence would have been known, not just in Mecca, but in many other cities around Mecca. Bedouins would have come to the spring to water their sheep.  Area inhabitants would have come to refresh themselves. No one could hide the spring, even if it were possible to cover it with dust.

    The story of Jurhum hiding items in the spring during the 2nd century A.D. continues by claiming that Abdel Mutaleb, the grandfather of Mohammed, rediscovered the spring near the end of the 5th century. We can only conclude that the spring never existed before the time of Abdel Mutaleb,  and that digging by  finally the Mecchians found underground water, which eventually became a spring. This phenomenon of digging to find water which comes in the form of a spring is common in the Middle East. To claim that a spring existed in a city for 2,500 years before Jurhum succeeded in covering it for another three centuries is an impossible assertion,  since the springs of Arabia were significantly more important to the Bedouins than the Red Sea itself. You may hide the sea from the eyes of thirsty tribes, but you cannot hide a spring and its location for that amount of time.

    It is also impossible to believe that the black Stone was hidden for three or four centuries. The stone was considered the main shrine, or sacred element, in each temple, called Kaabah in Arabic. This revered stone, which represented the moon, was considered to be divine. The worship of the Arabian Star Family with Allah, who was the moon as its head, revolved around the black stone. Ellat, Allah's wife, was the sun, and al-'Uzza and Manat, his daughters, represented two planets. The Muslims believe the black Stone divinely came from Allah, who was the moon before the planet Venus replaced it in Allah's title. How could a black stone, greatly worshipped and revered by the people, be hidden while they were fighting to preserve the prestige they found in serving it?  It is implausible to suggest that they could hide their greatly-worshipped stone, without any of the people who chased the defeated Jurhum noticing where it was hidden, especially when the place where it was claimed to be hidden was the spring of water from which they drank every day of the battle. Hiding the worshipped stone in such a way is more implausible than hiding the spring of water itself.

    The story of the black Stone has some important implications. The black Stone was not in existence near Mecca until, perhaps, the end of the 5th A.D. century. That's why Islamic tradition tried to justify the absence of the stone by inventing implausible stories. Therefore, we can estimate that the black stone, which was the main element of worship in all Kaabahs of Arabia, was brought  from another area - most probable Yemen - toward the end of the 5th century A.D.

Asa'd Abu Karb was the True Builder of Kaabah in the Beginning of the 5th century A.D.

It is said that prior to the construction of the Kaabah, a tent existed on the spot where it was built.[ii][2] The tribe of Khuzaa'h came from Yemen around the 2nd  century A.D.  In the 4th century A.D., they moved toward the area where Mecca was eventually built. Since they didn't find a temple there in which to worship, they pitched their tent in a field.


    Information from the writers of the 8th century A.D., who depended on information from the time of Mohammed, indicates the Kaabah was built at the beginning of  the 5th century A.D. by a  Himyarite pagan Yemeni leader named Asa'd Abu Karb. He is also called  Abu Karb Asa'd, and he reigned in Yemen from 410 to 435 A.D.[iii][3]  The fact that the Islamic historians admit that Asa'd Abu Karb was the first ruler in history to dress the Kaabah is a significant indicator that he was the true builder of the Kaabah.[iv][4]  Dressing a temple in Arabia was the second stage of its construction. It included decoratively finishing the inside walls, putting carpets on the walls and the floor, and adding textured and crocheted items on various parts of the interior building. (Arabians will not pray in a temple which is not dressed.) Asa'd Abu Karb used Amer from Azed to build the inside walls of the Kaabah.[v][5] (Azed is a tribe which came from Yemen at the same time Khuzaah's tribe came.)  So Asa'd Abu Karb, the first to build and dress the Kaabah, must have first built it when there was just a tent where the Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h worshipped. Asa'd Abu Karb, also called Tubb'a, occupied the city of Yathrib before coming to Mecca.[vi][6]  It seems he found many temples in Yathrib, but when he came to Mecca, he didn't find any temple there. Because the inhabitants were recent emigrants from Yemen, Asa'd Abu Karb built them a modest temple in the Yemeni style. He did this to connect the people with himself. He also wrote a poem in which he described the sun setting in a spring of black mud, something Mohammed included in the Qur'an.

Additions by Quraish to the Building Which Asa'd Abu Karb Built

Quraish, the tribe Mohammed came from, later occupied the city. They acquired a black stone from Yemen so that their temple would be like all the other Kaabahs which, according to the worship of the Star Family of Arabia, were built around a black stone. Family Star worship started in Yemen, the place from which the Quraish emigrated. The first Kaabah built by Asa'd Abu Karb, had a wood roof. That roof burned, so next they used wood carried by a Byzantine ship, which stopped on the coast of the Red Sea at a place called  "al-Shaebieth". The owner of the ship was a Coptic Egyptian named Bachum. He sold the wood to them and made the roofing for the Kaabah.[vii][7]  Later, when Mohammed was still young, further elements were added to the simple building.[viii][8]

    These facts about the construction of the temple at Mecca should cause Muslims to question all that Ibn Ishak and his companions said about the city, in their attempt to back Mohammed's claim in the Qur'an that the temple was built by Abraham and Ishmael.

YEMENI RESPONSIBILITY IN BUILDING THE TEMPLE OF MECCA

The Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h built the city of Mecca in the 4th century A.D. Yemeni pagan religious worship has left its fingerprints all over the temple, showing that Abraham and Ishmael could not have built it.

We will discuss why the marks of Yemeni worship characterized the temple of Mecca. The sayings and customs of Mohammed are called Hadith. "Sahih Muslim" and "Sahih Buchari" are considered the main authoritative books which contain the words or Hadith of Mohammed. In those books, we read about Mohammed's custom  to embrace and kiss two stones, "the Yemenite Rukun" and "the Black Stone".  Ibn Abbas the cousin of Mohammed and the reporter of his authoritative Hadith, says that Mohammed customarily embraced the two Yemeni Rukuns. By "Yemeni Rukuns," he meant the Black Stone and the other stone, also called Rukun.[ix][9] From this we know that Kaabeh had two main elements, also called Rukuns, which were considered sacred. Those were the stones around which the Kaabeh was built. These were the true elements revered by the inhabitants of Mecca and by Mohammed. 

    It seems that the Black Stone was brought from Yemen at the time of Abdel Mutaleb, the grandfather of Mohammed. Islamic tradition claimed it was hidden with the spring of Zamzam for centuries prior to Mohammed.  I demonstrated previously that such a claim could not be true. The fact is that Mohammed and Islamic tradition endeavor to connect the pagan Yemeni worship of the ancestors of Mohammed, which transferred from Yemen to the Temple of Mecca, with Ishmael and Abraham, even though there are historical evidences that point to the contrary. We will look at some of them.

    First, the confirmed date of the construction of the city of Mecca is sometime after the 4th century A.D.  Abu Karb Asa'd was the first to consecrate the Kaabah, which reveals that he was the builder of the Kaabah. He did this during his reign in Yemen, which was between 410 and 435 A.D. The two Rukuns, or stones, which were the main elements of worship in the temple, were of Yemeni origin. The date on which the Black Stone first appeared in Mecca was at the time of Mohammed's grandfather, sometime between 495 and 520 A.D. Though Islamic tradition was aware of these facts, people invented unreliable stories to fill the historical gaps. I've already proved such stories are not logical, and are easily refutable.

     An important factor in tracing Yemeni responsibility for constructing the Temple at Mecca, and in establishing the true date of construction for such Temple, is found in the Himyarite kingdom of Yemen. Abu Karb Asa'd, the reigning monarch of Himyarite kingdom, tried to extend his empire over central western Arabia in order to control the spice route from Yemen to North Arabia, and then to the Fertile Crescent. Abu Karb Asa'd, also called Tubb'a, occupied the cities of central western Arabia at the beginning of the 5th century A.D. Among those cities were Mecca and Yathrib, also called al-Medina. The occupier's strategy was to bind these cities to his kingdom by reinforcing the Yemeni religious system which the inhabitants of Mecca and Yathrib were already embracing. The inhabitants of Mecca had emigrated from Yemen, so they were of Yemeni origin.  Yathrib was formed by two Yemeni tribes, Oas and Khazraj. They, too, emigrated to Yathrib after the dam at Yemen was damaged around 150 A.D. These tribes were living with two Jewish tribes, Beni Kharithah and Beni Nathir, which were already established. Abu Karb Asa'd was of Yemeni origin. He built the Kaabeh at Mecca to reinforce his rule over the city, and to show favor to the citizens of Mecca who were without a temple of worship. They, like him, shared the same pagan beliefs.

Tubb'a's ideas of Jewish and Yemeni pagan myths and their influence on the Arabians of central western Arabia, and consequently on Mohammed.

Tubb'a also tried to build bridges with the Jewish community in Yathrib. He learned their religious thoughts and rites. He learned the Jewish myths, such as the legend of the hoopoe bird  that announced the kingdom of Saba to Solomon. This myth came from the Jewish mythological book called the Second Targum of Esther. Mohammed incorporated the same myth into the Qur'an.

    To accomplish his ends, Tubb'a brought two Jewish rabbis to Yemen.[10]  They added to his knowledge by teaching him many Judaic religious rites and myths, enabling him to mix various items in his own Yemeni pagan background with Jewish mythology and religious tradition. For example, he combined Arabian star worship with Jewish myths.  With mixed knowledge like this, he thought he could control the regions in central western Arabia, where people of Jewish and Arabian origin lived. He then claimed himself to be a prophet, expounding many thoughts which the Yemeni people considered indisputable about the sun, the earth and the cosmos. At Mecca, in an attempt to convince his listeners that he was a prophet, he taught that the sun sets in a spring of black mud.[xi][11] This myth, too, was incorporated by Mohammed in the Qu'ran.

    After his death, Tubb'a's claim left an impression on many groups, even on groups that lived until the time of Mohammed. Mohammed considered him as a Muslim and almost as a prophet.[12] There have been myths about Tubb'a among the Arabians. Al-Taberi attributed victories to him in China and Tibet. This is unhistorical, but it shows how great an impact Tubb'a left on the Arabians at the time of Mohammed,  to the point that many considered him to be a prophet.[13]

The Kaabah of Mecca was built for the Arabian Star worship and it shares all the characteristic of the Kaabahs that were built for their worship.

The fact that the temple at Mecca was built as a Kaabah for Arabian star worship is shown in many ways. First, it was built in the same architectural style as other Kaabahs in Arabia. They were all temples for the same Arabian Family Star religion, in which Allah is considered the head and Ellat is his wife. All the Kaabahs had a  Black Stone as the most revered element. It represented the star deity in Arabia. Many of the black stones were meteorites which the Arabs saw descending to earth. They thought the meteorites they were envoys from the moon, which was considered to be Allah himself. This is before that title was given to Venus, who replaced the moon as head of the star family.

    Another thing which shows that the Kaabah of Mecca  was built as a temple for Arabian star worship is that the Kaabah of Mecca reflects members of the star family in many of its elements. The main door of the Kaabah was called  "the door of worshippers of the sun,"[xiv][14] the wife of Allah.

Mohammed confirmed that the origin of the Kaabah's faith was Yemeni.

The role of Yemeni religious paganism in building the temple at Mecca, and its religious nature, cannot be hidden. Even Mohammed recognized the origin of the religious system of Mecca as Yemeni. Mohammed uttered many Hadiths about the Yemeni origin of the Kaabah faith.  Such teachings are reported in the authoritative Hadith, the book of al-Bukhari, in which Mohammed says: "the faith is Yemeni and the wisdom is Yemeni." In another Hadith, he says: "the doctrine and jurisprudence is Yemeni."[xv][15] Therefore, not just the Rukuns, the sacred stones in the Kaabah, were from Yemen, but also religious laws, doctrine and faith are Yemeni. It is undeniable proof that the temple of Mecca was constructed by a Yemeni leader according to a Yemeni pagan style and specification. He established Yemeni religiosity at Mecca, and it was known in other parts of Arabia. How, then, could Abraham have built the Kaabeh, if what we have learned about its construction is true? How did the Black Stone come from heaven, and how did Abraham sacrifice on it, and build the Kaabah around it, if the stone was not in Mecca before the 5th century A.D.?    How could Mohammed's teaching come from  Allah through the angel Gabriel and still be of Yemeni origin?

    The important Egyptian scholar, Tah Hussein, has criticized Islamic tradition for linking the construction of Mecca's temple to Abraham and Ishmael.[xvi][16]  Tah said :

The case for this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. Islam exploited it for religious reasons."[xvii][17]

If Muslims search diligently in history, like this great Egyptian scholar did, they will reach the same conclusion.

Establishing the Date the Tribe of Khuzaa'h Built Mecca

Many historical elements help us determine the true date Mecca was built.  One major factor is the damage which occurred to the dam of Ma'rib in Yemen around the year 150 A.D. It caused the emigration of many families and tribes from Yemen to the north. One of these families was the family of Amru bin Amer, a Yemeni individual whose progeny fostered many tribes. Among them was Khuzaa'h, which settled in central western Arabia.  Later, they built the city of Mecca.

    Other tribes which came from  Amru bin Amer were Oas and Khazraj. They settled in Yathrib, also called al-Medina, where the Jewish tribes of Beni Kharithah and Beni Nathir were already located.

    From the writings of Tabari, the famous Arabic historian, we understand that this happened at approximately the same time the Lakhmids moved from Yemen to Mesopotamia. It is also the same time Amru bin Amer, the father of Khuzaa'h, moved from Yemen.[xviii][18] The Lakhmids came from Yemen in the 2nd  century A.D. They lived in a region of Mesopotamia later known to be the city of Hira. Later the Persians used them to protect Persian borders with the Byzantine Empire, which was dominating Syria. The first Lakhmid king was Amr I bin Adi, who ruled from 265-295 A.D.[xix][19] The serious collapse of the dam of Ma'rib precipitated the emigration of tribes such as Ghassan, which settled in the Byzantine border; Shammar which inhabited the Syrian Desert; and other tribes which emigrated to the north of Arabia and the Fertile Crescent.[xx][20]  Some of these tribes were related to each other because they were progeny of Amru bin Amer.[xxi][21] Other tribes who came out of Yemen at the time the dam collapsed were Oas and Khazraj. They went to live in al-Medina. Ozd al-Sarat went to al-Sarat, a location near Orfeh, which is near where Mecca was built. The tribe of Khuzaa'h inhabited a place called Mur, also called Mur al-Thahran,[xxii][22] another place near where Mecca was built.[xxiii][23]

Mecca was Built by Khuzaa'h as a Desolate Station on the Spice Route

There was no city named Mecca in that area; otherwise, Khuzaa'h and Ozd would have inhabited it, as Oas and Khazraj inhabited the city of Yathrib. For more than a century and a half Khuzaa'h remained in the area near where Mecca was later built. They then decided to build a station on the caravan route where traders could rest and conduct business.  If Mecca had existed before Khuzaah's emigration from Yemen, Mecca would have been the city to which they would go to search out a living, even as their sister tribes, Oas and Khazraj, went to Yathrib to benefit from commerce and agricultural activities of the Jewish tribes there. But neither Khuzaa'h nor Ozd, as new emigrants in semi-deserted areas around the area where Mecca eventually built, found a city to host them when they left Yemen. They waited more than 170-200 years before building a city on the caravan route, which became a station for the caravans competing with Yathrib, which was about 200 miles away. The station they built, was called Mecca.

    It is important to note that none of the tribes who came from Yemen inhabited Mecca. If Mecca was in existence at the time the dam was seriously damaged, around the year 150 A.D.,  we would find many tribes locating in Mecca, because it is closer to Yemen than Yathrib is to Yemen. But, because the area where Mecca was eventually built was desolate and had no cities, it induced the tribes of Ozd and Khuzaa'h to live there. They did so, although they  previously lived in a civilized city in Yemen which was Ma'rib, the capital of Saba. This is an important argument which points out that Mecca could not have existed before Khuzaa'h built the city in the 4th century A.D.

    Let's review these historical facts. I've shown that the Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h built the city of Mecca in the 4th century A.D. We've seen the connection between the temple of Mecca and Yemeni pagan religious worship.  All this shows that the claim of Islam about Abraham and Ishmael building the temple of Mecca contradicts the true historical facts. Building faith on the sand is unwise. I pray that our Muslim friends will return to true faith as found in history and announced in the Bible.  In the Bible they can find a solid foundation, documented in the writings of the prophetic books, and considered by historians to be the accurate resource for ancient history.

   Religion Research Institute -Home

[1] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 524

[ii][2] Al-Azruqi, Akhbar Mecca, 1/6

[iii][3] A. Jamme, W.F., Sabaean Inscriptions from Mahram Bilqis (Ma'rib), the Johns Hopkins Press, Baltimore, 1962, Volume III, page 387; there are also Texts numbered by G. Ryckmans after himself, G. Ryckmans, Le Museon 66 (1953), pages 363-7, p1.V; quoted by  K.A. Kitchen , Documentation For Ancient Arabia, Part I, Liverpool University Press, 1994, page 219

[iv][4] Al-Azruqi, Akhbar Mecca, 1:173; Yaqut al-Hamawi, Mujam al-Buldan, 4:463

[v][5] Ibn Saad, Tabakat, 1, page 64

[vi][6] Ibn Hisham 1, page 20

[vii][7] Halabieh 1, page 235; Ibn Hisham I, page 157; al-Azruqi, Akhbar Mecca I, page 104

[viii][8] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 526

[ix][9] Sahih Muslim 9, page 15

  • [10] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 426-428; al-Ya'akubi I, page 226
[xi][11] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 429

[xii][12] Halabieh I, page 280

[xiii][13] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, pages 331, 332, 360

[xiv][14] Halabieh I, page 236

[xv][15] Al-Bukhari 5, page 122; Halabieh I, page 259

[xvi][16] Quotation by Alessandro Bausani, L'Islam, Garzanti Milano, 1980, page 208

[xvii][17] Quoted in Mizan al-Islam by Anwar al-Jundi, page 170 ;Behind the Veil, page 184

[xviii][18] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, pages 431 and 360 also mentioned the emigration to the area of Hira in Mesopotamia of tribes descended from Maad bin Adnan from Yemen.

[xix][19] K.A. Kitchen, Documentation For Ancient Arabia, Part I , Liverpool University Press, 1994, page 251

[xx][20] James Montgomery, Arabia and the Bible, University of Pennsylvania Press, Philadelphia, 1934, page 126; Montgomery also quotes Philby, The Heart of Arabia, II, page 97

[xxi][21] Ibn Hisham I, page 12

[xxii][22] Ibn Hisham I, page 13

[xxiii][23] The commentators on Ibn Hisham I, page 13


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Peter

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Re: MECCA, THE KAABA, AND THE BLACK STONE
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2010, 11:03:07 AM »
Some interesting older photos of the Kaaba included in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Jr9X3oqlw

Peter

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Re: MECCA, THE KAABA, AND THE BLACK STONE
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2010, 01:33:45 PM »
Interesting search for - Dr Rafat Amari
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Dr.+Rafat+Amari&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&fp=c26c79a56c95bda8

I notice a dearth of the usual cacophony of Muslims uploading websites refuting Dr. Amari with the usual "...liar, liar..." stuff, like they try (pitifully) with Prophet of Doom's author Craig Winn.

The Ahnaf impact on Muhammed
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=105

http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/index.htm
    *  The Classical Writers and Mecca - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * Archaeology  and Mecca - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Bible and Mecca- By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Kaabah and the Arabian Star Worship - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The Role of the Temple at Mecca in the Jinn Religion and in the Arabian Family Star Religion - By Dr. Rafat Amari
    * The True Story of the Construction of the Temple of Mecca - By Dr. Rafat Amari

Peter

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Re: MECCA, THE KAABA, AND THE BLACK STONE
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2010, 08:42:22 PM »
In YouTube this is the only information I have been presented thus far

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html

When we look at a reasonable source,

http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/classical.htm

we find that even the vague claims that "...temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians." was in no way a reference to the Kaaba, or Mecca ever having existed, but in fact the quote was removed from context and was Agatharchides (and others) Description of a Temple Along the Gulf of Aqaba of the coastal tribe of the Batmizomaneis.
Even Mohammed's tribe went on annual pilgrimage to a holier place than Mecca, long after the Kaaba was built.

The first link is ridiculous pile of presumptions that go far beyond anything like a stretch.

AnnaMuslim

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2010, 03:50:12 PM »
Your questions are absurd, your comments raving lunacy and your conclusions are just plain vanity (insanity)

I cant eevn start to correct all your errors of judgement, You say you want to seek the truth but have the talent to distort every thing that is not from the archives of the Roman Catholics (or the corrupted Nicean Council or the self serving doctrine of Augustine.

The True story according to you is so full of lies and deception on your part It does not deserve a reply.

Peter

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2010, 04:23:47 PM »
Your questions are absurd, your comments raving lunacy and your conclusions are just plain vanity (insanity)

I cant eevn start to correct all your errors of judgement,.......

Then why don't you pick out just one and we can focus on that?

....... You say you want to seek the truth but have the talent to distort every thing that is not from the archives of the Roman Catholics (or the corrupted Nicean Council or the self serving doctrine of Augustine.

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=97.0
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=96.0

The True story according to you is so full of lies and deception on your part It does not deserve a reply.

What you mean is that you are incapable of replying, because you can see the truth is contrary to what you have been taught, and now you find Mohammed's indefensible religion is nothing but pure 7th century poppycock and recycled pagan rituals.
Again, simply saying something doesn't make it so, yet you continue to avoid specifics, or to support the false claims that you make.
Why not first show us the evidence that Mecca existed before the 4th century AD, and then show us the EVICENCE that suggests that the Kaaba existed before pagan immigrants from Yemen built it around the early 5th century?

Mohammed credited his tribe the Quraish with building the Kaaba from the ground up.
Sahih Muslim Book 007, Number 3078:
    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger may peace be upon him) said to me: Had your people not been unbelievers in the recent past (had they not quite recently accepted Islam), I would have demolished the Ka'ba and would have rebuilt it on the foundation (laid) by Ibrahim; for when the Quraish had built the Ka'ba, they reduced its (area), and I would also have built (a door) in the rear.

If Mohammed's tribe the Quraish didn't build the Kaaba for moon, sun and star worship, then why don't you tell us what they did build it for? Did Mohammed's tribe the Quraish invent Mohammedanism before Mohammed was born?
Are you going to pretend that Mohammed's grandfather wasn't into the Arabian jinn religion? That Mohammed's wife's father didn't get his news from jinn? That Mohammed didn't come from a long line of pagans steeped in the occult? That the Kaaba didn't contain 360 idols - one of which it still houses today? Or deny that the Muslims joined the pagans shoulder to shoulder in circumambulation of the Kaaba? Of course you can't deny that because it's all true.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Number 365:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    On the Day of Nahr (10th of Dhul-Hijja, in the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Abu Bakr was the leader of the pilgrims in that Hajj) Abu Bakr sent me along with other announcers to Mina to make a public announcement: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba. Then Allah's Apostle sent 'All to read out the Surat Bara'a (At-Tauba) to the people; so he made the announcement along with us on the day of Nahr in Mina: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba."

Poor pagans got thrown out of their own ritual.
Can you imagine a bunch of naked pagans and Muslims performing Tawaf!!???

In other words you are going to have to bring EVIDENCE before your empty words above can be perceived as anything other than false accusations and lies.
But then that's already established by your rejection of all of the prophets and apostles as revealed in the Word of God.

1John 5:10  He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.


Peter

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2010, 12:29:56 AM »
All we ask is that folks coming to this forum engage in DIALOGUE - that is in an EXCHANGE.
All you have done so far is engage in false accusation, personal attacks, and spamming unsupported nonsense and irrelevancy as you avoid specifics, while ignoring replies to your comments.
The reason you were unable to engage in dialogue is that Mohammed's STAND-ALONE 7th century religious invention is entirely unsupportable, through history, archaeology, geography or particularly through scripture. Islam has never been able to stand the light of truth. That's why bibles are banned in Muslim countries, and why Muslims that come to Jesus Christ are killed as Islamic apostates.

Please respond to the replies to your comments in this thread, as well as the other threads you left comments on, before commenting on any more threads. Besides this thread here is a list of your other comments that have been replied to, to which you still have not responded.

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.msg5793#msg5793
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.msg5797#msg5797
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=466.msg5801#msg5801

Why don't you start with my first reply.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.msg5794#msg5794
Please break my posts up into smaller pieces to make it easier to address all of the points, and PLEASE BE SPECIFIC and support your claims.

AnnaMuslim

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2010, 07:08:02 PM »
My Dear Pete

In order to understand the Religion of the Most successful person in the history of the world you need to believe in the GOD of Adam and all the Prophets including Jesus may ALLAH bestow Peace upon them all.

You have to denounce your worship of a human that you say is the Son of GOD, worshipping a humen -God  or Son-god or Spirit-God makes you Mushrik (a person that ascribes partners to ALLAH).

Your True Story is your version of the history as told by enemies of Islam as you are telling people your story according to your intellect, Let me give you an example of a Jesus Story that is very plausible and can be found by Googling the Tomb of Jesus in kashmir.

The links will clearly give you documented history of a very good person that had to flee from his homeland due to severe persecution and they even crixified him, he had the marks and scars to prove it.

This evidence proves beyond a shodow of a doubt that the all the events of Jesus is true to the point of Resurrection when Jesus actually Rose of recovering for three days and left (descended over the Mountains) to the east and settled in Kashmir.

Now despite all the evidence, to the contrary, I still believe the version that Prophet Jesus (messiah born of Mary) was taken into heaven by ALLAH and he will return one day.

Your story is biased against Islam and has no merit in the history books though it is a plausible version but the plausibility is not a basis for the truth. You sell theory as Truth and for me to waste my time trying to explain the truth about geography, like the tilt of the earth that changes the realation to north east (sunrise) and, the ability to plot a map accurately and to take into account the fact that all your evidence is folklore or stories that has been transmitted over time by different types of human (there are no digital archives of 5000 years ago) there are no books dating to 5000 years BC and the language used was more than likely ARABIC!

The Variables and the length of time is very prohibitive and we can only take the words of the Prophets as Gospel (the truth) the final Messenger gave you the final message and you now not only seek to deny it but you have to the audacity to lie about the so called evidence you have

Only an ignorant fool would believe such drivel, Historians that guarded their work for 5000 years, the integrity of the Scripture is not garunteed a true copy of the Original Latin, let alone the Greek or the Aramaic (does not exist) and that is 2010 years ago, how on earth do you without batting an eyelid tell the story of Abraham from a made up historian.!!!

Peter

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2010, 06:56:41 AM »
First of all this post is an epic failure in regard to answering to my replies. Indeed it is completely off topic. The topic of this thread is the Kaaba that pagans built in the early 5th century AD to worship the moon, sun, and stars.
I should have moved this to spam storage with the rest of the posts you entered in here after ignoring my responses to your posts, and refusing to engage in dialog. If you continue to ignore the responses to your first 4 posts, linked in the post before yours I will again move them to spam storage.

My Dear Pete

In order to understand the Religion of the Most successful person in the history of the world you need to believe in the GOD of Adam and all the Prophets including Jesus may ALLAH bestow Peace upon them all.

While you've been deceived into an understanding that you believe in the God of the Jews and Christians, you must reject the very prophets you mention, as revealed in scripture, including Jesus, in order to follow Mohammed and his god "Allah".

Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

You have to denounce your worship of a human that you say is the Son of GOD, worshipping a humen -God  or Son-god or Spirit-God makes you Mushrik (a person that ascribes partners to ALLAH).

Your True Story is your version of the history as told by enemies of Islam as you are telling people your story according to your intellect, Let me give you an example of a Jesus Story that is very plausible and can be found by Googling the Tomb of Jesus in kashmir.

The links will clearly give you documented history of a very good person that had to flee from his homeland due to severe persecution and they even crixified him, he had the marks and scars to prove it.

This evidence proves beyond a shodow of a doubt that the all the events of Jesus is true to the point of Resurrection when Jesus actually Rose of recovering for three days and left (descended over the Mountains) to the east and settled in Kashmir.

Now despite all the evidence, to the contrary, I still believe the version that Prophet Jesus (messiah born of Mary) was taken into heaven by ALLAH and he will return one day.

Your story is biased against Islam and has no merit in the history books though it is a plausible version but the plausibility is not a basis for the truth.

The above is irrelevant drivel that did not serve this topic, you, or I.
The history that I follow is that recorded by the folks who lived in or near the times.

You sell theory as Truth and for me to waste my time trying to explain the truth about geography, .......

I'm sorry, but if you can't explain how Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael wandered 1200 miles through unknown uncharted desert, from Hebron to Mecca, 900 years before the first caravan route was ever established along the red sea, then Mohammed's preposterous nonsense goes up in smoke. Flying camels and all.
How did Ishmael travel the 1200 miles to attend his father's burial in Hebron?

Peter

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2010, 07:00:26 AM »
........ like the tilt of the earth that changes the realation to north east (sunrise) and, the ability to plot a map accurately and to take into account the fact that all your evidence is folklore or stories that has been transmitted over time by different types of human (there are no digital archives of 5000 years ago) there are no books dating to 5000 years BC ......

Since you are ignorant to Hebrew scribal methods it's ridiculous of you to discuss the topic. Why don't you try to educate yourself first? Oh, that's right, if you educated yourself you would have the intellect of something other than a desert dwelling illiterate, that is required to follow Mohammed.
The scriptures were preserved.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=97.0

The history and flying camels that you follow was a 7th and 8th century fiction created by Ibn Ishak and Tabari without a single reference to any historical record that preceded them. Pure fiction.

..... and the language used was more than likely ARABIC!

You poor, poor thing. Even the Arabic that Mohammed's tribe the Quraish used was a modern variant of the older version which was also a relatively new language on the scene.

The Variables and the length of time is very prohibitive and we can only take the words of the Prophets as Gospel (the truth) the final Messenger gave you the final message and you now not only seek to deny it but you have to the audacity to lie about the so called evidence you have

I deny Mohammed's 23 year 7th century record because I follow the 1600 year record of God to mankind, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years. A very compelling reason not to follow Mohammed is because he was A SINGLE, 7th century, illiterate, pillaging, plundering, murdering, child doing, prisoner raping, stepson's only wife stealing, sex slave prostituting, concubine fornicating, lying, cheating, blood drenched, imperialistic, conquering, terrorist, thief. A man, and book that are THE EXACT OPPOSITE of Jesus and the New Testament."

A phony "prophet" that had no fulfilled prophecy, that not a single person ever heard his god "Allah's" voice give a revelation to, that never even performed a single miracle.

Peter

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2010, 07:03:45 AM »
Only an ignorant fool would believe such drivel, Historians .......

I see. An ignorant fool is convinced by scripture, history, confirming archaeology and geographical sensibility, but a person that wants to believe in Zoroastrian style flying camels, but must first void his mind of history, archaeology and geography until his intellect mirrors that of a 7th century illiterate, is intelligent?

....... that guarded their work for 5000 years, the integrity of the Scripture is not garunteed a true copy of the Original Latin, let alone the Greek or the Aramaic (does not exist) and that is 2010 years ago, how on earth do you without batting an eyelid tell the story of Abraham from a made up historian.!!!

Now why don't you try replying to the subject of this thread.
Show us some evidence that suggests that the Kaaba existed prior to the early 5th century AD when pagan immigrants from Yemen built it for moon, sun and star worship. What do you think the 360 idols at the Kaaba were all about? Mohammedanism?

Since you believe the preposterous notion that Abraham and Ishmael were ever in Mecca, or had anything to do with the pagan kaaba, you are under obligation to explain how Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael wandered across 1200 miles of unknown uncharted desert, from Hebron to Mecca, 900 years before the first caravan route was ever established along the red sea. If you can't explain this - Mohammedanism goes up in smoke.

AnnaMuslim

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2010, 05:38:38 AM »
Dear Peter

May ALLAH guide you, I am a Muslim and cannot listen to this level of ignorance, blind faith is one thing, plain stupidity is another,
You are have the truth in front of you with over 3500 years worth and yet you feel compelled to follow misguided interpretations of that scripture.


the true story is held by the Arabs, write to the University in medina and Alazhar in Cairo, you keep forgetting that the history of the world was compiled by the Arabs (Greek, Roman and Persian Philosophies) in Bagdad and handed to Europe as a gift, your entire civilization is built on it.
 The Period, 6-12th century is the era of Islam and the benefit of Muhammad has affected the entire world to such a degree that you write arabic everyday when you write down a number. Open your eyes, you are drowning in the filth of the transgressors. The way they made you feel is the same way they made the Christian feel in the 8_12th centuries resulting in unnecessary wars.

Islam is not the enemy, falsehood and individuals that have the pride of Satan are. I dislike the sin but love the sinner. you seem to have an extreme dislke for Muslims (very unchristian like)

Islam is based upon:
The true belief of ADAM
The Faith of ABRAHAM
The Patience of Job
The LAWS of MOSES
The LOVE of Jesus
The way of Muhammad (he showed us how to implement all

one story you do not have access to and the quality of this story is mediam compared to others
Allah Saves Daniel from Lions

Ibn Abi Al-Dunya narrated the following, based on a chain of citations. NEbuchadnezzar captured two lions and threw them into a pit. He then brought Daniel and threw him at them; yet they did not pounce at him; rather, he remained as Allah wished. When then he desired food and drink, Allah revealed to Jeremiah, who was in Sham (Palestine/Syria): "Prepare food and drink for Daniel." He said: "0 Lord I am in Jerusalem while Daniel is in Babylon (Iraq)." Allah revealed to him: "Do what I have commanded you to do, and I shall send you one who will carry you and what you have prepared." Jeremiah did so and Allah sent him something that would carry him until he arrived at the brink of the pit.

Then Daniel asked: "Who is this?" He answered: "I am Jeremiah." He asked: "What brought you?" He answered: "Your Lord sent me to you." He said: "And so my Lord has remembered me?" He said: "Yes." Daniel said: "Praise be to Allah Who has never forgotten me! And Praise be to Allah Who never forgets those who appeal to Him! And Praise be to Him Who compensates good with good, rewards patience with safety, dispels harm after distress, assures us when we are overwhelmed, and is our hope when skill fails us."

Daniel After Death

Yunus Ibn Bakeer reported that Muhammad Ibn Ishaaq reported that Abu Khalid Ibn Dinar reported that Abul Aalia said: "When Tastar was invaded, we found, in the treasure house of Al-Harmazan, a bed on which lay a dead man, with a holy script at his bedside. We took the scripture to Umar Ibn Al-Khattab. He called Ka'b and he translated it into Arabic, and I was the first Arab to read it. I read it as I read the Quran." Here, I (i.e. Khalid Ibn Dinar) said to Abul Aalia: "What was in it?" He said: "Life history, annals, songs, speech, and what is to come." I asked: "And what did you do with the man?" He said: "We dug in the river bank thirteen separate graves. At nightfall we buried him and leveled all the graves in order to mislead people for they would tamper with him." I asked: "And what did they want from him?" He said: "When the sky was cloudless for them, they went out with his bed, and it rained." I asked: "Who did you think the man was?" He said: "A man called Daniel." I asked: "And for how long had he been dead when you found him?" He said: 'Three hundred years." I asked: "Did not anything change on him?" He said: "No, except for the hairs of his face (beard and mustache); the skin of the prophets is not harmed by the earth, nor devoured by hyenas."

The chain of citation from Abul 'Aa'lia is good, but if the date of the dead man's death was really three hundred years, then he was not a prophet but a saintly man, because there was no prophet between Jesus and the Prophet Muhammad , according to the hadith in Bukhari. The span between them (i.e. the dead man and Muhammad ) was variously reported as four hundred, six hundred, and six hundred twenty years. It could be that he had died eight hundred years earlier, which would be near to Daniel's time, if his being Daniel is correct. However, he could still have been somebody else, either a prophet or a saint. Yet the truth is more likely that he was Daniel, because he had been taken by the King of Persia and remained imprisoned, as already mentioned.

It was narrated with a correct citation that his nose was one span (nine inches)long. Anas Ibn Malik, with good citation, said that his nose was an arm's stretch long (two feet), on which basis he is thought to be an ancient prophet from before this period. Almighty Allah knows best.

Daniel's Death - Hadith

Abu Bakr Ibn Abu Dunya wrote in the book Ahkam-alQubur (The Rules of Graves), based on a long chain of citation, that the Prophet said: "Daniel prayed to his Lord, Great and Majestic for the nation of Muhammad to bury him." And he (i.e. Muhammad, PBUH) said: "Whoever discovers Daniel give him tidings of Paradise." The man who discovered him (his corpse) was called Harqus. Umar sent to Abu Musa saying: "Bury him; and send to Harqus, for the Prophet has given him promise of Paradise."

This hadith is mursal (it has a good chain of citation) as it is recorded, and Allah knows best.

After Daniel's Death - Variation

Thn Abu Dunya reported from Abu Bilal that Abu Musa found with Daniel a holy script and a container in which were dirhams, his ring and ointment. He wrote to 'Umar, who replied: "Send the scripture to us, send some of the ointment, tell the Muslims who are with you to use it, share the dirhams among them, and leave the ring for you.

Abu Dunya related without citation that when Abu Musa was told that he was Daniel, he stayed with him, embraced him, and kissed him. Then he wrote to 'Umar that he found with him nearly ten thousand dirhams. It used to be that people came to borrow from it, and if they did not return it, they became sick. 'Umar ordered his burial in a grave to be kept secret and the money to be sent to the treasury, with the box and the ring a gift to him (Abu Musa).

It is related of Abu Musa that he told four of the captives to dam the river and dig a grave in the middle, where he buried him. Then he beheaded the four captives in order for the secret to be kept from all except himself.

Daniel's Ring

Ibn Abu Dunya also reported, by a chain of citations, that a ring was seen on the hand of Ibn Abu Barda Ibn Abu Musa. The gem was carved with two lions with a man between them, whom they were licking. Abu Barda said: 'This is the ring of that man whom the people of this town say is Daniel. Abu Musa took it the day he was buried. The learned people of that town told Abu Musa that soothsayers and astrologers told the king in Daniel's time that a boy would be born who would destroy him and his kingdom. So the king swore to kill all the baby boys, except that they threw Daniel in the lions' den, and the lion and lioness began to lick him and did not harm him. His mother came and took him. Abu Musa said: 'And so Daniel carved his image and the image of the two lions into the gem of his ring, for him not to forget Allah's blessing upon him in this."' This has a good citation.
the

Peter

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2010, 07:30:14 AM »
The reason that you posted irrelevant and fictional drivel is because you could not comply with my simple requests. Please try to avoid junking up threads with unrelated lies. Like the ignorant Mohammedan nonsense about Daniel that was CREATED in the 7th or 8th century.
You are required to ENGAGE IN DIALOG but you continue to ignore my questions, and the thread subjects, because they expose Mohammedanism as the complete fraud that it is.

Not a single word of what you wrote provides EVIDENCE or historical support that suggests that the Kaaba was built prior to the early 5th century AD.
That's because MECCA DID NOT EXIST before the 4th century AD.


That means that any ridiculous drivel in your Quran or Hadith, about anything that happened prior to the Year of the Elephant (when Islamic history BEGAN to be recorded), is nothing more than CREATED FICTION - that is - pure lies - of Islam's 7th and 8th century fictional history authors.

That makes the preposterous claim that Mecca was the epicenter of Mohammed's religion - since Adam - utterly ridiculous.
Even Mohammed credited pagan immigrants from Yemen with building the Kaaba - from the ground up.

Now I request again. Reply to the subject of this thread.
Show us some evidence that suggests that the Kaaba existed prior to the early 5th century AD when pagan immigrants from Yemen built it for moon, sun and star worship.
What do you think the 360 idols at the Kaaba were all about? Mohammedanism?

AnnaMuslim

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2010, 02:04:53 PM »
Dear Pete

After my comments is the history of the Ka'ba

It is impossible to argue with a fool like you, due to your high levels of ignorance and lack of basic education in religious matters and the degree of indoctrination you suffer. 125000 Prophets were sent to the earth, Muhammad connected all the dots of all the scriptures from ALLAH, (ALL Scripture is from ALLAH, muslims do not deny scripture, only deviations from the truth)

The worship you talk about is not of the Black Stone, not of the Ka'aba (it is not a shrine) The blood and honor of a believer is more sacred than the entire Makkah, The walking around it seven times has its roots in the actions of  Prophets not pagans,

My point with Daniel's story is that The Arab universities and many Islamic Universities have books that are authentic and hold the truth of the world. The criteria for access is belief. You lack that basic criteria and I fear that you are depriving yourself of the truth.

You obviously don't understand my arguments, basic as they may be, which means I am unable to convince you of simple truths.

My point is that you have believed the lies and deception written in books by men who are bent on destroying your soul. The Truth cannot penetrate a heart that is hard and black.

Here is the Story of the KA'ABA

The kaaba was built by ADAM rebuilt by Abraham and it stands on the Golden mean of the Earth longitude and latitude,

The small, cubed building known as the Kaba may not rival skyscrapers in height or mansions in width, but its impact on history and human beings is unmatched.

The Kaba is the building towards which Muslims face five times a day, everyday, in prayer. This has been the case since the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) over 1400 years ago.

The Size of the Kaba:

The current height of the Kaba is 39 feet, 6 inches and total size comes to 627 square feet.

The inside room of the Kaba is 13X9 meters. The Kaba's walls are one meter wide. The floor inside is 2.2 meters higher than the place where people perform Tawaf.

The ceiling and roof are two levels made out of wood. They were reconstructed with teak which is capped with stainless steel.

The walls are all made of stone. The stones inside are unpolished, while the ones outside are polished.

This small building has been constructed and reconstructed by Prophets Adam, Ibrahim, Ismail and Muhammad (peace be upon them all). No other building has had this honor.

Yet, not very much is known about the details of this small but significant building.

Did you know the Kaba was reconstructed as recently as close to four years ago?

Did you know that the Kaba has been subjected to danger by natural disasters like flooding, as well as human attacks?

If you didn't keep reading. You'll find some rarely heard of information discussed below and discover facts about the Kaba many are unaware of.

The other names of the Kaba

Literally, Kaba in Arabic means a high place with respect and prestige. The word Kaba may also be derivative of a word meaning a cube.

Some of these other names include:

Bait ul Ateeq-which means, according to one meaning, the earliest and ancient. According to the second meaning, it means independent and liberating. Both meanings could be taken

Bait ul Haram-the honorable house

The Kaba has been reconstructed up to 12 times

Scholars and historians say that the Kaba has been reconstructed between five to 12 times.

The very first construction of the Kaba was done by Prophet Adam (peace be upon him). Allah says in the Quran that this was the first house that was built for humanity to worship Allah.

After this, Prophet Ibrahim and Ismail (peace be upon them) rebuilt the Kaba. The measurements of the Kaba's Ibrahimic foundation are as follows:

-the eastern wall was 48 feet and 6 inches

-the Hateem side wall was 33 feet

-the side between the black stone and the Yemeni corner was 30 feet

-the Western side was 46.5 feet

Following this, there were several constructions before the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be uponj him) 's time.

Reconstruction of Kaba by Quraish

Prophet Muhammad participated in one of its reconstructions before he became a Prophet.

After a flash flood, the Kaba was damaged and its walls cracked. It needed rebuilding.

This responsibility was divided among the Quraish's four tribes. Prophet Muhammad helped with this reconstruction.

Once the walls were erected, it was time to place the Black Stone, (the Hajar ul Aswad) on the eastern wall of the Kaba.

Arguments erupted about who would have the honor of putting the Black Stone in its place. A fight was about to break out over the issue, when Abu Umayyah, Makkah's oldest man, proposed that the first man to enter the gate of the mosque the following morning would decide the matter. That man was the Prophet. The Makkans were ecstatic. "This is the trustworthy one (Al-Ameen)," they shouted in a chorus. "This is Muhammad".

He came to them and they asked him to decide on the matter. He agreed.

Prophet Muhammad proposed a solution that all agreed to-putting the Black Stone on a cloak, the elders of each of the clans held on to one edge of the cloak and carried the stone to its place. The Prophet then picked up the stone and placed it on the wall of the Kaba.

Since the tribe of Quraish did not have sufficient funds, this reconstruction did not include the entire foundation of the Kaba as built by Prophet Ibrahim. This is the first time the Kaba acquired the cubical shape it has now unlike the rectangle shape which it had earlier. The portion of the Kaba left out is called Hateem now.

Construction After the Prophet's Time-Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr

The Syrian army destroyed the Kaba in Muharram 64 (Hijri date) and before the next Hajj Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr, may Allah be pleased with him, reconstructed the Kaba from the ground up.

Ibn az-Zubayr wanted to make the Kaba how the Prophet Muhammad wanted it, on the foundation of the Prophet Ibrahim.

Ibn az-Zubayr said, "I heard Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) say, 'The Prophet said: "If your people had not quite recently abandoned the Ignorance (Unbelief), and if I had sufficient provisions to rebuild it [the Kaba], I would have added five cubits to it from the Hijr. Also, I would make two doors; one for people to enter therein and the other to exit." (Bukhari). Ibn az-Zubayr said, "Today, I can afford to do it and I do not fear the people.

Ibn az-Zubayr built the Kaba on Prophet Ibrahim's foundation. He put the roof on three pillars with the wood of Aoud (a perfumed wood with aroma which is traditionally burned to get a good smell out of it in Arabia).

In his construction he put two doors, one facing the east the other facing the west, as the Prophet wanted but did not do in his lifetime.

He rebuilt the Kaba on the Prophet Ibrahim's foundation, which meant that the Hateem area was included. The Hateem is the area adjacent to the Kaba enclosed by a low semi-circular wall.

Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr also made the following additions and modifications:

-put a small window close to the roof of the Kaba to allow for light.

-moved the door of the Kaba to ground level and added a second door to the Kaba.

-added nine cubits to the height of the Kaba, making it twenty cubits high.

-its walls were two cubits wide.

-reduced the pillars inside the House to three instead of six as were earlier built by Quraish.

For reconstruction, ibn az-Zubayr put up four pillars around Kaba and hung cloth over them until the building was completed. People began to do Tawaf around these pillars at all times, so Tawaf of the Kaba was never abandoned, even during reconstruction.

During Abdul Malik bin Marwan's time

In 74 Hijri (or 693 according to the Gregorian calendar), Al-Hajjaj bin Yusuf al-Thaqafi, the known tyrant of that time, with the approval of Umayyad Khalifa Abdul Malik bin Marwan, demolished what Ibn az-Zubayr had added to it from the older foundation of Prophet Ibrahim, restore its old structure as the Quraish had had it.

Some of the changes he made were the following:

-he rebuilt it in the smaller shape which is found today

-took out the Hateem

-walled up the western door (whose signs are still visible today) and left the rest as it was

-pulled down the wall in the Hateem area.

-removed the wooden ladder Ibn az-Zubayr had put inside the Kaba.

-reduced the door's height by five cubits

When Abdul Malik bin Marwan came for Umra and heard the Hadith that it was wish of Prophet for the Kaba to be constructed the way Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr had built it, he regretted his actions.

Imam Malik's advice to the Khalifa Harun al Rasheed

Abbasi Khalifa Harun al Rasheed wanted to rebuild the Kaba the way the Prophet Muhammad wanted and the way Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr built it.

But when he consulted Imam Malik, the Imam asked the Khalifa to change his mind because constant demolition and rebuilding is not respectful and would become a toy in the hands of kings. Each one would want to demolish and rebuild the Kaba.

Based on this advice, Harun al Rasheed did not reconstruct the Kaba. The structure remained in the same construction for 966 years, with minor repairs here and there.

Reconstruction during Sultan Murad Khan's time

In the year 1039 Hijri, because of heavy rain, flood and hail, two of the Kaba's walls fell down.

The flood during which this occurred took place on the 19th of Shaban 1039 Hijri which continued constantly, so the water in the Kaba became almost close to half of its walls, about 10 feet from the ground level.

On Thursday the 20th of Shaban 1039 Hijri, the eastern and western walls fell down.

When flood receded on Friday the 21st of Shaban, the cleanup started.

Again, a curtain, the way Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr established on 4 pillars, was put up, and the reconstruction started on the 26th of Ramadan. The rest of the walls except for the one near the Black Stone, were demolished.

By the 2nd of Zul-Hijjah 1040 the construction was taking place under the guidance of Sultan Murad Khan, the Ottoman Khalifa. From the point of the Black stone and below, the current construction is the same as that done by Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr.

The construction which was done under the auspices of Murad Khan was exactly the one done at the time of Abdul Malik ibn Marwan which is the way the Quraysh had built it before Prophethood.

On Rajab 28 1377, One historian counted the total stones of the Kaba and they were 1,614. These stones are of different shapes. But the stones which are inside the outer wall which is visible are not counted in there.

Reconstruction of the Kaba In 1996

A major reconstruction of the Kaba took place between May 1996 and October 1996.

This was after a period of about 400 years (since Sultan Murad Khan's time).

During this reconstruction the only original thing left from the Kaba are the stones. All other material has been replaced including the ceiling and the roof and its wood.

What is inside the Kaba?

Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi is the president of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA). He had the opportunity to go inside the Kaba in October 1998. In an interview with Sound Vision, he described the following features:

-there are two pillars inside (others report 3 pillars)

-there is a table on the side to put items like perfume

-there are two lantern-type lamps hanging from the ceiling

-the space can accommodate about 50 people

-there are no electric lights inside

-the walls and floors are of marble

-there are no windows inside

-there is only one door

-the upper inside walls of the Kaba were covered with some kind of curtain with the Kalima written on it





The kaaba was buil

Peter

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2010, 04:10:55 PM »
The worship you talk about is not of the Black Stone....

Was the black stone one of the 360 idols that the pagans venerated at the kaaba before Mohammed?

Yes or no?

AnnaMuslim

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2010, 07:33:35 PM »
The black Stone was there before Muhammad which only proves that worship of the Idols was a deviation from a much older religion, like the religion of Abraham, Man has been sent 125000 Prophets each time they stryaed from the Path of ALLAH. ALLAH wants you to return to that Path and prophets were chosen from amongst the Tribes. Men that assumed that they know what ALLAH wants then starts to mislead the masses and man falls into worshipping of other men, deifying men, worshipping spirits and idols (wealth, power, church, state or system)

The final messenger (Muhammad) was shown what is sacred and what is not and obviously kept what is sacred, and idscarded the practices that were not, like The Ka'aba and performing the tawaaf around it comes from the practice of prophets., Jerusalem (never destroyed by muslims, ever) the home of many Prophets, Jesus, messiah born of mary and the practice of Abraham (HAJJ)

I can go thorugh all the Islamic rituals for you one by one and link it to a previous prophet. (jesus fell on his face and Prayed (did he not?) did he wash his feet before he prayed, did he fast?
Well the Muslims do all of that in the manner shown to them.

Phill

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2010, 06:41:28 AM »

Anna

Unfortunately you fail to look at REAL ancient history and fail to understand that the Islamic history was falsified by people like Ibn Ishak. Saudi Arabia was extensively geographically documented by explorers and indeed Arabians themselves for hundreds of years before Mohammad was born. The Arabians documented all the clans and major centres of religious worship and trade going back nearly the time of Abraham. This history has been well studied from people all over the world and not a single one of them can find any trace of Mecca prior to the 4th century A.D or trading routes that came even close to where Mecca is located today.

Now this is a historicly documented fact. Unfortunately Islamic scholars like Ibn Ishak had to make up stories for the Islamic peoples so they would believe that Islam has been around since the time of Abraham and all the Jewish Prophets were actually Muslims. But the actual historic reality is that this is clearly false. You see if a lie gets told enough times over a few hundred years it tends to become fact at some stage. But it is still a lie and nothing can change that. Thankfully in todays world everyone has access to this information via the internet and can intelligently make up their own minds on history without having to listen to story tellers and thinking it must be the truth.

Peter

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2010, 06:50:14 AM »
Indeed Phil, and thank you for joining us! Not a single shred of the 7th and 8th century CREATED ISLAMIC HISTORY FICTION references a single actual historical record, even though actual historical record for Arabia abounds.

The black Stone was there before Muhammad which only proves ...........

That Muslims still circumambulate the very same kaaba, and venerate the very same black stone idol, that the pagans before them circumambulated and venerated as the moon god idol. Even joined pagans shoulder to shoulder in the pagan Hajj.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1050.0

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Number 365:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    On the Day of Nahr (10th of Dhul-Hijja, in the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Abu Bakr was the leader of the pilgrims in that Hajj) Abu Bakr sent me along with other announcers to Mina to make a public announcement: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba. Then Allah's Apostle sent 'All to read out the Surat Bara'a (At-Tauba) to the people; so he made the announcement along with us on the day of Nahr in Mina: "No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba."

http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#twaf

that worship of the Idols was a deviation from a much older religion, like the religion of Abraham, Man has been sent 125000 Prophets each time they stryaed from the Path of ALLAH. ALLAH wants you to return to that Path and prophets were chosen from amongst the Tribes. Men that assumed that they know what ALLAH wants then starts to mislead the masses and man falls into worshipping of other men, deifying men, worshipping spirits and idols (wealth, power, church, state or system)

The final messenger (Muhammad) was shown what is sacred and what is not and obviously kept what is sacred, and idscarded the practices that were not, like The Ka'aba and performing the tawaaf around it comes from the practice of prophets., Jerusalem (never destroyed by muslims, ever) the home of many Prophets, Jesus, messiah born of mary and the practice of Abraham (HAJJ)

I can go thorugh all the Islamic rituals for you one by one and link it to a previous prophet. (jesus fell on his face and Prayed (did he not?) .......

We don't have to depend on presumption regarding prayer. We are instructed as to how to pray and how not to pray.

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain  repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

The instruction for you to pray vain repetitions 5 times a day and perform ablution did not result from Mohammed's fanciful ride on a flying camel to Jerusalem, heaven and back, as you have been taught, but from the 2nd century occult cult of the Sabians. Mohammed and 4 of his cousins were deeply involved in that cult.
And guess what? The Sabians prayed 5 times a day and performed ablution. Mohammed even mentions this occult cult right alongside Christians in the Quran.
http://brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

...... did he wash his feet before he prayed, did he fast?
Well the Muslims do all of that in the manner shown to them.

The Islamic rituals are all repackaged pagan Arabian Star Family and jinn/demon worship rituals. Summarized here.
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm

Now please answer this post
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=466.15

AnnaMuslim

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2010, 09:32:08 AM »
Your question is irrelevant and rhetorical. The stone was incorrectly worshipped and t let me remind you that this is a discussion board not a court of law, where the procedure is not more important than the truth. The truth about Makkah and the Ka'ba and the black stone was given its proper position in the world by Muhammad. Wrongs were corrected, incorrect worship was corrected by The prophet Muhammad. He came as a mercy unto all creation and to give the world clarity on the duties it has toward The Creator, the Prophets, the Scriptures and each other. The wisdom is not inferred or implied, it is explicit.

The black stone is not an object of worship and the vast majority of muslims go through their entire lives without ever touching it. Of the 1,8 biillion Muslims only 3-5 million make the pilgrimage to the Ka'aba annually. The black stone is not part of belief, it is a very minor ritual.

I humbly urge that correct your incorrect belief by looking at the Scriptures from Genesis and return to the worship of the One GOD, the GOD of Israel, the GOD of Arabia and all creation.

Peter

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2010, 09:47:10 AM »
Your question is irrelevant and rhetorical. The stone was incorrectly worshipped ........

I see. So when the Mohammedans took over the  very same ritual of VENERATION of the black stone, and then threw the pagans out of their own ceremony, only then was it "correctly" VENERATED.

....... and t let me remind you that this is a discussion board not a court of law, where the procedure is not more important than the truth. The truth about Makkah and the Ka'ba and the black stone was given its proper position in the world by Muhammad.

By doing nothing more than repackaging pagan stone idol veneration.

Wrongs were corrected, incorrect worship was corrected by The prophet Muhammad. He came as a mercy unto all creation and to give the world clarity on the duties it has toward The Creator, the Prophets, the Scriptures and each other. The wisdom is not inferred or implied, it is explicit.

The black stone is not an object of worship .........

The pagans didn't worship it either. They VENERATED IT as Muslims still do today.

venerate
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

To the pagans it REPRESENTED the moon god. They didn't believe it WAS THE MOON GOD.
Just as Muslims do the very same thing, but through Mohammed's even more preposterous twist, that his "Allah" actually, physically, sent the very same stone idol.
Even the pagans didn't risk a suggestion that ridiculous!

Peter

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2010, 10:32:34 AM »
......... and the vast majority of muslims go through their entire lives without ever touching it.

That's because during Hajj, Tawaf is generally too crowded to kiss the stone like Mohammed did. The instructions then are that you are to point to the stone on each of the 7 times one circumambulates the pagan kaaba.

"The circle begins from the Black Stone on the corner of the Ka-bah. If possible, muslims are to kiss or touch it, but this is often not possible because of the large crowds, so it is acceptable for them to simply point at the Stone on each circuit. They are also to make the Takbeer prayer (Allahu Akbar) each time they approach."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawaf

Of the 1,8 biillion Muslims only 3-5 million make the pilgrimage to the Ka'aba annually.

And if a Muslim does not make it at least once in his lifetime he fails to perform one of the mandatory pillars of Islam.
Since Islam is spread primarily among uneducated people in 3rd world countries, most are too poor to follow the ridiculous demands of Mohammed's phony and fleshly "Allah", to be able to afford the trip to Mecca, to fatten the town coffers as pilgrims have since Mohammed's Grandfather maintained it - and before. Thus they die without ever performing that obligatory ritual.

The black stone is not part of belief, it is a very minor ritual.

Of course! Why it's only the reason you bow to the Kaaba and it's black stone five times a day! Oh yea, and have to squander your money to go to Saudi Arabia and circumambulate it, just like the pagans did. No biggie, huh?

I humbly urge that correct your incorrect belief by looking at the Scriptures from Genesis and return to the worship of the One GOD, the GOD of Israel, the GOD of Arabia and all creation.

God's people have worshiped Him through two covenants for 3500 years through the 1600 year record He gave us through ALL of the prophets, apostles and witnesses.
Not through Mohammed's nonsense that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the Gospel.

Why would you follow an unrepentant prisoner rapist anyway?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=466.15
 

Phill

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2010, 11:18:36 PM »

We all know that the Meccan Kaaba in Mohammads time was not the only in existence in Arabia. In fact there were numerouse Kaaba's located all around Arabia and yes each one had their own stone (some being other colours than just black). Islamic scholars show that Mohammads own tribe ventured once or twice a year to some other Kaaba elsewhere (probably where the three oldest Mosques point towards today which is North West of Mecca). This shows that the Kaaba at Mecca wasn't really that important in Mohammads time compared to ones in the much larger, longer established, more populated cities than Mecca.

I am sure Mohammad himself went on these pilgrimages himself when he was boy with his Uncle. Imagine the excitiement in Mohammads eyes as a boy to see so many people in these flourishing places where everyone came to worship Allah by the thousands and the floursihing trade merchants were doing that went with it

Now as an adult Mohammad we all know was a trader and a businessman and a seemingly very good one at that (besides not paying for much of his stock). As a businessman normaly does, they look to expand and build there business. Mohammad remebered this flourishing enterprise when he a boy. When Mohammad became the self proclaimed prophet, part of his business plans was to make Mecca the one and only centre of worship in Arabia to bring in those cashed up worshippers to spend there money there (amongst the Muslims) and pretty much make a killing by wiping out the competition. Although his religion was the main focus of his ambition, he knew it would also reap great wealth.

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2010, 07:22:11 AM »
The worship you talk about is not of the Black Stone....

Was the black stone one of the 360 idols that the pagans venerated at the kaaba before Mohammed?

Yes or no?

I think i have clear your doubts?

Peter

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2010, 08:17:36 AM »
The worship you talk about is not of the Black Stone....

Was the black stone one of the 360 idols that the pagans venerated at the kaaba before Mohammed?

Yes or no?

I think i have clear your doubts?

Indeed you did! After desperately trying to run away from the fact, your admission that you don't respect the black stone, and then in the same sentence said you did respect it, said it all! Thus it is a simple matter of fact that Muslims VENERATE the black stone just like the pagans did before Mohammed.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1050.msg6201#msg6201

And Muslims venerate that black stone through the very same rituals of circumambulation that the Arab pagans invented.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1320.0

AnnaMuslim

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Re: THE TRUE STORY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE OF MECCA
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2010, 07:20:26 AM »
I cannot understand how you can be so dogmatic about a simple ritual, the word venerated is as many of your words is an attempt at misguidance and a clear indication of your intentions. I have explained it to you but you do not accept it. Your failure to find the history of the Ka'aba (you checked the libraries in Makkah and Madina   ??? of course not

The Muslims ruled the known world (70% of Europe) and collected all the books of knowledge in Bagdad (undisputed fact) that is why you have a bible today (thakns to the Muslims) All the history of the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Spanish, and Christians 9t+remember Constantinople (now Istanbul) came under Muslim Rule. So tell me who is more likely to have the books and History of the Entire Region stretching from The South of France in the West to China in the East, Russia in the North and Africa as far as the equator???????

Islam is not a simple minded religion (an ignorant disbeliever cannot understand it). I will attempt to explain Islam to you in context of the Black stone. that you say is venerated as the pagan worshippers did.

Islam has various levels of worship, faraid (compulsory), Sunnah, nafl(voluntary) and sadaka (charity), a smile is a charity if you have no money to give. The kissing of the Stone is regarded as a charity for yourself, and it is not a fundamental of belief. veneration is not to be equated with worship and the reason it is done is becuase we believe that the Prophet acted out of truth and from the istructions of ALLAH, whether you understand it or not is of no consequence. Your words are meaningless. and has no bearing on the truth. Yopu are quessiing at best.