Author Topic: 6 - TWO WITNESSES  (Read 7456 times)

Peter

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6 - TWO WITNESSES
« on: May 04, 2010, 01:27:28 PM »
http://beholdthebeast.com/two_witnesses.htm

6 - TWO WITNESSES

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CHAPTER 6

Can a woman forget her sucking child,
that she should not have compassion
on the son of her womb?
Yea, they may forget,
yet will I not forget thee.

ISAIAH 49:15

AS  already  discussed,  Revelation  is  not  a  mystery,  but  Jesus'
solution of one (Rev 1:1). Consequently, we can't go to that book
with our doctrines in place and expect to learn what Jesus may
have there for us. The Two Witnesses of Rev 11:3-7 are good
examples of why. Most believe these two witnesses to be a couple
of Old Testament saints like Enoch and Elijah, but they might be
someone else entirely:

Revelation 11:3 ... and I will grant authority to my two witnesses,
and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days,
clothed in sackcloth.
.

Taking the day-year principle of Eze 4:5-6  into consideration,
those two witnesses would have to witness for 1260 years. No one
in this age lives that long, so who can they be?

Revelation  11:4    These  are  the  two  olive  trees,  and  the  two
candlesticks  standing before the God of the earth.


Hummm ... olive trees and candlesticks. What can those figures
mean?  Unless the Lord's Two Witnesses are a pair of real elderly
fruit-bearing olive trees and a couple of really ancient, oil-dripping
candlesticks, then, like it or not, we are dealing with figurative

 60  The False Prophet

language. So let's see if we can find biblical definitions for olive
trees and candlesticks.

To sort these figures out we probably need to apply one of the
rules of hermeneutics1. Now, hermeneutics is not a discipline we
play games with to fit our doctrines. It is a sound study of how to
interpret either the spoken word or a written document. Hermen-
eutics has some excellent, time-tested rules. Among them is the
rule of "scriptural adjacency." That rule states: When you read
something you don't understand, first study the surrounding text,
then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears,
then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate the
verse to the whole Bible. That is one of the rules, and it's a very
good one. In other words ...

We don't  go  to  the Old Testament  for definitions of New
Testament figures when there are New Testament definitions
that fit perfectly! 2

In Rev 11:4 quoted above, the Two Witnesses of the Christian Era
are described as olive trees and candlesticks. To find the correct
definition for those figures, we should find the closest contextual
address which explains them. Lo and behold, right in Revelation
we find candlesticks defined:

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest
in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The
seven stars are  the angels of  the seven churches: and the
seven  candlesticks  which  thou  sawest  are  the  seven
churches.

__________________________________

1 Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, especially of the Scriptures. The
branch of theology that deals with biblical exegesis.
2 Candlesticks and olive trees are used figuratively in Zec 4, but the figures within
that chapter were defined for us as things that existed during Zechariah's time (the
Jewish leader Zerubbabel being one of them). So on the basis of the definitions in
Zec 4, could Zerubbabel and "the two anointed ones" be the Two Witnesses of Rev
11? Not very likely since he died about 2500 years ago. We see no end-time refer-
ence  to  a  personage  like  Zerubbabel  in  the New Testament,  and  furthermore
Revelation does not call the two witnesses of the Christian Era "anointed ones."
However, since Zechariah's two "anointed ones" are not clearly identified, they
might possibly be an OT reference to the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11.
______________________________________________________

 Two Witnesses  61

Right in Revelation 1, candlesticks are defined as churches. If
candlesticks are churches in Rev 1, then guess what? Candlesticks
are  still  churches  in Rev  11.  The  only way  they  would  not  be
Churches  is  if  the  Lord  God  Himself  changed  the  symbolic
meaning  of  that word somewhere  between Rev  1:20  and Rev
11:4. No change of definition appears there (or anywhere else in
Scripture  for  that matter)  so  the  candlesticks  of  Rev  11:4  are
churches. That interpretation is not the product of some clever
theologian's overactive imagination. Candlesticks are churches
because the Bible itself defines them as such.

So, if the seven candlesticks of Rev 1 are seven churches, what
do you suppose the two candlesticks of Rev 11 might be?  Why,
two churches of course. But if the Two Witnesses are only two
churches, which churches are they? Probably every denomination
in the world would like to believe it is one of the Two Witnesses
(with the rest of Christendom being heretics, of course), but God's
churches of the Christian Era are far broader than man's sectarian
restrictions, and the Olive Trees figure positively identifies who
they are.

Still applying the principle of scriptural adjacency, we first try
for a definition of olive trees in Revelation and then in the rest of
the New Testament. Four times in the Old, and twice in the New,
Israel  is  defined  as  an  olive  tree.1 Old Testament verses are
included  in  footnote,  but  we  still  don't  use  Old  Testament
______________________________________________

1 Jer 11:16 The Lord called your name, "A green olive tree, beautiful in fruit and
form;"  With the noise of a great tumult He has kindled fire on it, And its branches
are worthless.
Isa 17:6 Yet gleanings will be left in it like the shaking of an olive tree, Two or
three olives on the topmost bough, Four or five on the branches of a fruitful tree,
Declares the Lord, the God of Israel.
Isa 24:13 For thus it will be in the midst of the earth among the peoples, As the
shaking of an olive tree, As the gleanings when the grape harvest is over.
Hos 14:6 His shoots will sprout, And his beauty will be like the olive tree, And his
fragrance like Lebanon.
___________________________________________

 62  The False Prophet

definitions to define New Testament figures when there are New
Testament definitions that fit perfectly:

Romans 11:17 And if some of the [Jewish] branches be broken
off, and thou
[the Gentile church], being a wild olive tree,
wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the
root and fatness of the olive tree.


Romans 11:24   For if thou [the Gentiles] wert cut out of the
olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary
to nature into a good olive tree
[the Jews]: how much more
shall  these
[the  Jews], which  be  the  natural  branches, be
grafted into their own olive tree?


Revelation is a New Testament book, and a New Testament
definition for olive trees appears in Romans 11. According to that
whole chapter, the Gentile church is one olive tree, and the Jewish
people are the other. As a result ...

One witness is the Jewish people
and the other witness is the Gentile church!

If we just accept the scriptural definitions for olive trees and
candlesticks, we are not left with a lot of doctrinal options. Take
a  realistic  look  at  history.  The  nation  of  Israel  could  not  have
maintained its identity through nineteen centuries of dispersion,
under constant persecution, were it not for the protecting hand of
the  Lord  our  God.  The  Bible  itself  affirms  it.  Listen  to  what
Scripture says:

Jeremiah 31:35-37 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for
a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the
stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the
waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those
ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the
seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me
for  ever.  Thus  saith  the  LORD;  If  heaven  above  can  be
measured, and the  foundations of  the earth searched out
beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that
they have done, saith the LORD.


 Two Witnesses  63

Our eternal Heavenly Father has not forgotten those words.
He stated right there that the children of Israel would be a nation
before Him forever, so He has remembered His chosen people all
along. The Lord's plans for the physical seed of Israel throughout
all time, including the Christian Era, are recorded in too many
Scriptures to ignore.1

Replacement theology2 notwithstanding, from the multitude
of  verses  cited  in  the  footnote,  it  appears  that  the  Lord  never
intended to forget the physical seed of Israel. Let me tell you how
important that is. If the Jews could not trust the promises God
made to them in the Old Testament, how can the Church trust the
promises God made to us in the New? It's comforting to know,
despite  man's  doctrines  to  the  contrary,  that  our  God  is  an
absolutely Holy God who keeps His Word in eternity.
_________________________________

1  Gen 17:7 speaks of an unconditional everlasting covenant with the physical seed
of Abraham. Lev 26:44-45 shows that Israel's restoration was not to be conditional.
Isa 11:11 speaks of a second restoration of the Jews. Isa 26:20-27:1 speaks of a
final hiding of the children of Israel followed by Satan's complete judgment. Isa
27:12-13, in context with the above, speaks of a final re-gathering of Israel. Jer
30:4-8 speaks of the time of Jacob's trouble and future restoration. Jer 30:18-24
states that a restoration for the tents of Jacob will take place in the latter days, i.e.
not the first restoration of 536BC. Jer 31:35-37 speaks of the permanent nation of
Israel. Jer 33:24-26 is a definitive unconditional covenant with Jacob's descen-
dants. Eze 16:60-63 speaks of an unconditional everlasting covenant with the Jews.
Eze 37:1-28 speaks of an unconditional future restoration of Israel, followed closely
by Armageddon in Exe 38-39. Hos 11:9-10 speaks of a future restoration of Israel
from the West. Joe 3:1-3 predicts the restoration of Judah, followed by Arma-
geddon. Amo 9:11-15 speaks of an Israel restored to the land. Zec 8:8 speaks of a
post-exilic, unconditional restoration of the Jews to Jerusalem and the land. Zec
10 and 12 are more prophecies of a future restoration of the Jews. Zec 14 speaks
of Armageddon, with the Jews in Jerusalem. Luk 21:24 speaks of a dispersion, the
time of the Gentiles, and a restoration following. Rom 11:11 states that the Jews
have not fallen so as to be lost. Rom 11:17 states that only some of the branches
were broken off. Rom 11:17 states that the church was grafted in among the Jews.
Rom 11:28 states that the gospel-age Jews are still elect. Rom 11:29 states that
God's calling of the Jews is irrevocable. Rev 7:4-9 speaks of the 12 tribes of Israel
in the Christian Era. Rev 12:1-6 speaks of Israel in the Christian Era. Rev 15:3 is a
passage primarily about the Christian Era; there are two songs, one for the Jews,
one for the Gentile church.
2  Simply stated, Replacement Theology is the belief that the Church, as adopted
Israel,  has  totally  replaced  the  physical  seed  of  Abraham  and  that  God  is
completely finished with the Jews of the Christian Era. This view holds that during
this era, the Church is all the Israel there is. The Scriptures cited in the preceding
footnote, plus Rom 11:15, stand directly against such a doctrine.
_____________________________________

 64  The False Prophet

Psalms 33:11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the
thoughts of his heart to all generations.


But if the Two Witnesses are two churches, when are they
going  to  witness?  If we  stand  by  the  day-year  principle,  they
would have to witness for 1260 years:

Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and
they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore
days.


The time of the Two Witnesses cannot come after the time of
the  Gentiles  because  Jesus  told  us  there  would  be  only  ONE
generation following 1967: "This generation [after the time of the
Gentiles] will not pass  away until all things are fulfilled" (Luk
21:24, 32). A generation cannot be over 70 years (Psa 90:10), and
is usually considered to be 40 years, so we have to look back in
history for these 1260 years. The author could find only one 1260
year time period that had any spiritual significance at all during in
the whole Christian Era:1

1948AD - 1260 = 688 AD and the Dome of the Rock!

And this fits history perfectly! As of 1948, the Jews are no
longer witnessing in the nations. The Abomination that maketh
Desolate was set up in 688, and the Jews were driven into the
"wilderness" of the nations at that time.2 Now, 1260 years later,
there is a new autonomous nation of Israel, and the Jews are back
in the Holy Land again. So the Jewish people are one of the Two
Witnesses of the Christian Era.
__________________________________

1   Since there have been Hebrew believers all the way back to Abraham's time, and
the Church has existed since Pentecost, why do the 1260 days start in 688 AD?
Before that date, both Jew and Christian were free to worship in Jerusalem, even
on the temple mount itself.  After 688 the Moslems persecuted the Christians and
Jews and drove them out of the land.  That is when  the most final of all the
dispersions of the Jews took place. By now we should begin to get the picture.
God's Word is eternal, and regardless of what nation ruled in the Holy Land, that
old temple site was always of inestimable importance to the Lord.
2  Eze 20:35 "And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people," shows the
Gentile nations to be the wilderness.
________________________________

 Two Witnesses  65

THE OTHER WITNESS

We can see 688 to 1948 as the time of Jewish witness, but
what about the second witness, the Church? How can the church's
time of witness be over since we are still here? Well, look at what
has happened to the Church since 1948. Most Christian homes
have a Bible, but  few Christians still read  them or continue  to
witness to the lost. The immorality, involvement in the occult and
satanism in the western nations has mushroomed since 1948, and
the church has done little to slow the decay. As a result of our
apathy and questionable lifestyles that followed, much of the
Gentile church has fallen into apostasy.

Most churches in this country are terminally ill, many have
already fallen away, and Europe is far worse. Many are beyond
reach, "the sin unto spiritual death" (1 Jo 5:16). Since our battle
is really spiritual, one is inclined to wonder if the coming destruc-
tion of the visible Church may not be more spiritual than physical.
If it is, we are frighteningly close to that hour:1

Revelation 11:7   And when they [the Two Witnesses] shall have
finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the
bottomless  pit  shall  make  war  against  them,  and  shall
overcome them, and kill them.


One way or another, in the final hours of this age, the Two
Witnesses are going to be destroyed. Read Rev 11:7 in the original
Greek or in any translation you like. All predict the end of the
visible Church. How can that be? Didn't Jesus promise that the
gates of Hell would not prevail against His church? Yes, but the
__________________________________

1 The National Council  of Churches (to which your own church might belong)
joined the World Council of Churches in 1948. That organization has a declared
goal of causing social change rather than teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. That
is  what  "Liberation  Theology"  is  all  about.  It  is  reported  that  through  them,
millions of dollars from mainline denominational churches (your tithes included)
have gone to buy guns to support various third-world insurgent "liberation fronts."
As a result, it appears that the Gentile church has fallen into apostasy. As one
indicator of church conditions, elders and deacons within mainline churches have
become occultists and satanists or are into New Age.
_________________________________

 66  The False Prophet

true Church that remains isn't all those big buildings out there, it's
only a remnant now... a few hairs hidden in a hem of the Lord's
garment (Eze 5:3).

For the first time since the  invention of the printing press,
books on astrology, satanism, and the occult are outselling the
Bible.  Truth  has  fallen  in  the  street  (Isa  59:14),  and  the
consciences of our people have been seared as with a branding
iron (1Ti 4:2). This will eventually lead to a worldwide rejection
of  the Bible and of the Lord. As the spiritual decay deepens, a
ruthless and devastating evil will be unleashed upon this planet,
and it will come with an intensity unknown since the flood. It has
already begun.

 GRAPH NUMBER 9



What is a true Church to do when conditions become unbearable?
Later in this book, you will read how we may become united with

 Two Witnesses  67

the faithful Jews, to stand with them in steadfast array against the
enemies of the Lord:

Isaiah 11:13-14  The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the
adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy
Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.  But they shall fly
upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they
shall spoil them of the east together.


That verse may not seem applicable to a true Church today, but
it's relevance will be explained in later chapters.

A NEWS BRIEF

Arutz Sheva Israel National Radio, 11/11/2001, 10:52am
On the Hussan bypass road, near Beitar Illit, a very powerful
bomb was discovered and safely detonated this morning. It
contained a 120-mm mortar shell. Two mortar shells were
fired at the Rafiach Crossing in southern Gaza in a pre-dawn
attack this morning. There were no injuries.

An Islamic Jihad terrorist was killed early this afternoon
in  an  explosion  at  his  place  of work  in  Bethlehem.  PLO
sources say that the man probably suffered a "work accident"
in  the  course  of  preparing  explosives.  They  say  they  are
continuing to check, however, whether he had been targeted
by Israel.

yanaconay

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the Two Witnesses of "the False Prophet" article
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2010, 06:50:14 PM »
The fact that one witness is the Jewish people and the other one is the Gentile church is a fascinating topic to me but I do have a question though: if like the article says the time of the Two witnesses cannot come after the time of the Gentiles and if the time of the gentiles ended in 1967 when was this fulfilled:? "... if anyone tries to do them harm fire comes out of their mouths and consumes their enemies... they have the authority to sut up the sky so that no rain falls during the period of their prophecying; also they have the authority to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with all kind of plage as often as they want"

Peter

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Re: the Two Witnesses of "the False Prophet" article
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2010, 04:34:16 AM »
I am going to merge this topic with the appropriate thread in The False Prophet category.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1336.0

Certainly the view of the two witnesses being Jews and Christians is not unique. It may have been the most popular view not that many centuries ago because it can be supported hermeneutically.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#two_witnesses

Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ... "

Isaac Newton:  "... God gives power to his two Witnesses, and they prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days clothed in sackcloth. They are called the two Olive-trees, with relation to the two Olive-trees, which in Zechary's vision, chap. 4 stand on either side of the golden candlestick to supply the lamps with oil: and Olive-trees, according to the Apostle Paul, represent Churches, Rom. 11. .... They are also called the two candlesticks; which in this Prophecy signify Churches, the seven Churches of Asia being represented by seven candlesticks...."  - Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John

Jamieson Faucett and Brown  "... I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "

It's 1260 "days" from 688 to 1948. I'm way rusty on this stuff since my focus turned to Muslims but I can't offhand think of where the "times of the Gentiles" and the 2 witnesses are related. I need to read the subject again.

Regarding the two olive trees
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1582.0

Will discuss further have I move the topic and you have seen where it went.

EDIT I just did a quickie search that I don't have time for right now and it struck me. Since sackcloth is an indication of remorse, it's interesting to note that 1948 was about the time that Billy Graham popularized the "sinner's prayer" and the institutional church began to set aside it's preaching of repentance (perhaps in some cases so it wouldn't reduce it's income).
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=ArqPgr3BGYuOmmjO1F3SKMKbvZx4?p=sackcloth+ashes&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701

ExMilitary

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2013, 05:55:08 PM »
I am studying this subject as addressed by Skolfield, and have the following question(s) regarding the Revelation 11 passage:

Quote
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.  2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

I'll note here that from the Skolfield study, this 1260 day period covers the period between the Dome of the Rock (688AD) and the declaration of Israel's statehood (1948)

Quote
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The two witnesses = Jewish/Gentile churches/olive trees

Quote
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Is this at the END of the 1260 days (1948)?  Because Skolfield says that 1967 is when their witness (testimony among the nations) ended.  So what does it mean that the beast makes war and overcomes them?  Does the beast kill the "witnesses" by restoring Israel in 1948?

Quote
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The Skolfield study pins the 3 1/2 days also to the period of 688 - 1967, and that bodies of the witnesses were the church/synagogue buildings that were "empty" during the period.  But if that is the case, how does the beast kill the 2 witnesses AFTER 1948, but has their dead bodies "laying in the streets" as early as 688?

I'm just really confused as to how all of this fits together.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 06:06:50 PM by ExMilitary »

PeteWaldo

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2013, 07:48:01 PM »
I am studying this subject as addressed by Skolfield, and have the following question(s) regarding the Revelation 11 passage:

Quote
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.  2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

I'll note here that from the Skolfield study, this 1260 day period covers the period between the Dome of the Rock (688AD) and the declaration of Israel's statehood (1948)

Quote
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The two witnesses = Jewish/Gentile churches/olive trees

I prefer faithful Jews and Christians.

Quote
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Is this at the END of the 1260 days (1948)?  Because Skolfield says that 1967 is when their witness (testimony among the nations) ended.  So what does it mean that the beast makes war and overcomes them?  Does the beast kill the "witnesses" by restoring Israel in 1948?

It's been a long time since I was in this section so please forgive me if I wind up adding to the confusion.
But through an ethnographic view of John's "whole world" it's pretty much a done deal. With the exception of that tiny little strip of land of Israel where Jews, Christians, non-Muslim Arabs and Muslims are protected by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State, virtually everyone in John's "whole world" has been marked by the name of the beast - Islam.

Strong's
world
New Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians

1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.



The following map is roughly the extent of the Roman Empire of John's first century, before the two witnesses were consumed by the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast.



Quote
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The Skolfield study pins the 3 1/2 days also to the period of 688 - 1967, and that bodies of the witnesses were the church/synagogue buildings that were "empty" during the period.  But if that is the case, how does the beast kill the 2 witnesses AFTER 1948, but has their dead bodies "laying in the streets" as early as 688?

This is mostly a reference to the church having been consumed by the dead formalism of Roman Catholicism. The church did die. By the time the Crusades rolled around you had a bunch of guys that had never heard the Gospel in a language that they knew because it was preached in Latin, and then they were told that if they went to fight they would be granted absolution from sin for life. How would men be expected to behave under such circumstances besides murder, rape, pillage and plunder (and even cannibalism). Indeed Islam may have been God's judgment on the church for that it allowing the traditions of men making the word of God of no effect. Roman church did, and still does, what Jesus castigated the Pharisees for:

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

All of the wealth spent on grand buildings being built with basically slave labor, with money that could have been feeding the poor wasn't too Christian either.
Those carcases have been lying in the streets from early on with churches having been converted to mosques.
"Instanbul’s Hagia Sophia, which means “Holy Wisdom” in Greek, was completed in 537 by Emperor Justinian and considered the center of Orthodox Christianity for more than 900 years. It was converted in the mid-15th century into a mosque after conquest by the Ottomans and became a source of pride for the Muslim world."

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/06/muslims-in-turkey-demand-conversion-of-renowned-christian-church-site-to-a-mosque/

I'm just really confused as to how all of this fits together.

Is that true, or are there just a few details that give you a little difficulty? If you can't see how it all fits together I can walk you through it. Beginning with the entire approach. It's important to remember that it is the rest of the church that strayed off of the reservation over the last couple hundred years through the pop-Jesuit counter-reformation inventions of partial preterism and futurism:

Also I look at the Dome of the Rock more as God's prophetic symbol, for Islam in bible prophecy. Here is how I worked it out in regard to the Olivet Discourse that Ellis doesn't much cover.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm

Do you know Ellis is available by email?
elskon@strato.net

PeteWaldo

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2013, 05:44:53 AM »
bumping because I added a few more details

ExMilitary

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2013, 08:41:04 PM »
Yes, thank you.  I emailed Mr. Skolfield, but didn't receive a reply.

I understand (or am beginning to) the approach you speak of.  My point in these Revelation passages is to understand how the witnesses prophesy (witness?) from 688 to 1948 (Rev 11:1) while at the same time are the dead bodies (i.e. dead churches, etc, from Roman Catholicism) that lay in the streets from 688 to 1967?  They have power from God and actively prophesy, but are also dead?

Revelation says that when the witnesses have finished their testimony, they will be killed, not that they will be dead during their testimony.

I truly want to understand, that is all.  I get the whole overarching picture, but if I am going to tell others (and teach this to other believers), I need to be able to answer questions directly.  And, although I enjoy looking at the overall wall/picture, and it's general construction, I very much enjoy studying the bricks and mortar as well.

For instance, the whole idea that Jesus may have been 40 years old at the cross never occurred to me until this study.  But, I didn't just accept it at face value (search the scriptures)... I've begun making my own time-line based on what I read in scripture (see attached).  And, while doing so, I've come to realize that many will say, with a straight face, that Jesus was probably crucified around 32 AD at the age of 33 and some change.  In order to do this, though, they are forced to reject other parts of scripture (for instance that Herod was alive at the time of Jesus' birth)... because if Herod died in 4BC, then, in (or around 32AD), Jesus would have been around 36 years old.  My next step will be to figure out the dates of passover feasts and full moon cycles and place those on the time-line as well.  I'm guessing that it will be quite easy, after this exercise, to visually represent Scripture in a way that shows why Jesus was probably 40 at his crucifixion.

I just wanted to let you know that I am taking time to study this seriously, and am not just some Internet troll looking to argue.

Now, back to the two witnesses.  Can you explain, in a way that I can understand, how the two witnesses can prophesy from 688 to 1948 and be dead from 688 to 1967 ... and be killed by the beast only after they have finished their witness?

PeteWaldo

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2013, 08:38:44 AM »
Yes, thank you.  I emailed Mr. Skolfield, but didn't receive a reply.

I understand (or am beginning to) the approach you speak of.  My point in these Revelation passages is to understand how the witnesses prophesy (witness?) from 688 to 1948 (Rev 11:1) while at the same time are the dead bodies (i.e. dead churches, etc, from Roman Catholicism) that lay in the streets from 688 to 1967?  They have power from God and actively prophesy, but are also dead?

Through all that dead formalism there was always a functioning ecclesia.

Revelation says that when the witnesses have finished their testimony, they will be killed, not that they will be dead during their testimony.

This could have something to do with the prophesied apostasy, which accelerated in spades after 1948 however through an ethnographic view of John's whole world we can see that - aside from those Jews and Christians living in that tiny little strip of land of Israel, protected by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State - the two witnesses have effectively been killed.



I truly want to understand, that is all.  I get the whole overarching picture, but if I am going to tell others (and teach this to other believers), I need to be able to answer questions directly.

It is generally pointless as whoever is asking you a question about a detail, is proof-texting the verse, and trying to wring it through the filter of their preconceived notions and the doctrine they have been taught to believe. In other words they are putting their effort into disbelief, and little you will say by way of explanation will help them understand. A "but what about this" and "but what about that" kind of proof-texted conversation won't take them anywhere, until they realize they have to be willing to change the entire approach through which they view prophecy, and judge it completely on its own merit.

With futurists you can begin on a point of agreement regarding the restoration of Jews to Israel, and then start out even more primary with the Gospel as contrary to their present view.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/futurism_dispensationalism.htm#futurism_vs_gospel

That's why it's important to begin with the entire approach, and then work your way down through the larger elements. I believe particularly through the hermeneutics of the LBL beast, and then John's 8 beasts. These concepts are virtually inarguable matters of historical record, that will also expose what their current understanding is.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/johns_eight_beasts.htm

If they can't get that, you can see how pointless it is to trifle in details like the two witnesses. Remember the identities of these two witnesses is not some unique thing to Skolfield's study:

Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ... "
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#two_witnesses

And, although I enjoy looking at the overall wall/picture, and it's general construction, I very much enjoy studying the bricks and mortar as well.

For instance, the whole idea that Jesus may have been 40 years old at the cross never occurred to me until this study.

Quite recently even the Pope came out about the misdating of Jesus' brith.

But, I didn't just accept it at face value (search the scriptures)... I've begun making my own time-line based on what I read in scripture (see attached).  And, while doing so, I've come to realize that many will say, with a straight face, that Jesus was probably crucified around 32 AD at the age of 33 and some change.  In order to do this, though, they are forced to reject other parts of scripture (for instance that Herod was alive at the time of Jesus' birth)... because if Herod died in 4BC, then, in (or around 32AD), Jesus would have been around 36 years old.  My next step will be to figure out the dates of passover feasts and full moon cycles and place those on the time-line as well.  I'm guessing that it will be quite easy, after this exercise, to visually represent Scripture in a way that shows why Jesus was probably 40 at his crucifixion.

A quite technical site that I think you will appreciate regarding the dating of His crucifixion is DANIEL'S MESSIAH IN THE CRITIC'S DEN
http://theism.net/article/17

That is actually the site that led me into Ellis' ministry. I had presented it in a largely atheist financial forum, and someone in there PMd me and said "If you want to see more of the day-year language of prophecy visit http://www.ellisskolfield.net/ ".

Actually it wasn't that site that originally led me there, as just a couple weeks before I had asked Jesus right out loud, about the disposition of Jews in the Christian era because I have some Jewish acquaintances whose lives revolve around our God YHWH, their temples and faith based communities.
I had not thought about having asked that question again, until I found myself in the chapter "One More Time" in The False Prophet, and realized I had been guided to a very specific answer to the very specific question I had asked Jesus. I cried out and sobbed (I still do every time I recount that).

I just wanted to let you know that I am taking time to study this seriously, and am not just some Internet troll looking to argue.

Now, back to the two witnesses.  Can you explain, in a way that I can understand, how the two witnesses can prophesy from 688 to 1948 and be dead from 688 to 1967 ... and be killed by the beast only after they have finished their witness?

I think that map of the Middle East provides a good answer. Formerly Christian lands, now virtually 100% Islamic.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Their carcasses joyously celebrated by the false prophet Muhammad's followers with conversion of this massive church building having been converted into a mosque.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia



As churches are burned in Egypt (as well as much of the rest of the world) as the remnant is persecuted and murdered.



Bible prophecy is ethnographic, not about New York city as some folks preach.
There is even still a remnant of the ecclesia in those Islamic countries, like the preacher sentenced to death. The Lord is bringing in the last of His harvest.

Maybe if you think of it less in terms of an overnight occurrence, and frame it more in a historicist context?

Like the Abomination of Desolation.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm
It doesn't mean that when the Dome of the Rock was built Jerusalem was suddenly desolated. Even before in 639 Jerusalem was conquered by the Islamic First Jihad.
Indeed it wasn't until the early 19th century that the complete and utter desolation was visited upon Jerusalem, but only after 1200 years of steady decline by Islamic physical and spiritual desolation. The Dome of the Rock as being more God's prophetic symbol for what was to take place over those 1200 years.

Look at the date 1948 (or 1967) as defining the end of that period and what happened over 1400 years - and particularly our change in period and entry into what Daniel's prophecy refers to as the "time of the end" - not so much as if a moment in time in which the two witnesses were killed.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
Did that help?

PeteWaldo

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2014, 10:41:43 AM »
Look at the date 1948 (or 1967) as defining the end of that period and what happened over 1400 years - and particularly our change in period and entry into what Daniel's prophecy refers to as the "time of the end" - not so much as if a moment in time in which the two witnesses were killed.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm
Did that help?

As far as the two witnesses finishing their testimony, the apostasy of the church - particularly in the U.S. - can be specifically dated to the Everson decision in 1947 and the big lie of "separation of church and state" followed in 1948 by the McCollum decision that kicked God out of our schools.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm

Bistabuster

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2014, 04:31:05 AM »
Hang in there, ex-military.  You're asking the right questions.  Just be open and look at it differently as Pete said. 

Trust me.  You can't just simply understand this right then!  It takes time to grasp it all.  I, myself as well as Pete and the rest of us that get it now, we too had some difficulty picking up on it.  It is the two witnesses plus everything else that needs to line up correctly for us to see the big picture. 

Right now, it sounds to me, you are putting the pieces of this complicated puzzle together not knowing what the full picture is as of this day and how Bible prophecy ties it all together. 

Just continue to be faithful and true to the Word and be open and honest about it.  Once you understand it, it will become clear to you so keep asking questions and you will find the answers you're looking for!

PeteWaldo

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2014, 05:43:02 AM »
Hang in there, ex-military.  You're asking the right questions.  Just be open and look at it differently as Pete said. 

Trust me.  You can't just simply understand this right then!  It takes time to grasp it all.  I, myself as well as Pete and the rest of us that get it now, we too had some difficulty picking up on it.  It is the two witnesses plus everything else that needs to line up correctly for us to see the big picture. 

Right now, it sounds to me, you are putting the pieces of this complicated puzzle together not knowing what the full picture is as of this day and how Bible prophecy ties it all together. 

Just continue to be faithful and true to the Word and be open and honest about it.  Once you understand it, it will become clear to you so keep asking questions and you will find the answers you're looking for!

Good post Bista. And I think the quickest way to see this is through the brick by brick empirical argument in The False Prophet:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm

And that might be easier to see once one understands the entire traditional approach to prophecy within which it falls:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm

Ian Liddle

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2014, 11:11:34 AM »
Much has been made of the words in Revelation 11:3 that the faithful Jews and the born-again Christians in the Gentile Church "will prophesy 1260 days [= years]".  But Revelation 11:3 adds the words "clothed in sackcloth".  To me, this implies that, during their (undefined) total time of prophesying, the two witnesses will metaphorically "wear sackcloth" for 1260 years (because, for these 1260 years, "the woman is wandering in the wilderness").   In other words, it appears to me that the time of being "clothed in sackcloth" is 1260 years, rather than the total time of prophesying.  After all, some of us are still "prophesying" - or speaking forth the word of God.  How can we be sure what the apostle John was emphasizing here - or can we?

ExMilitary

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2014, 04:22:36 PM »
Hang in there, ex-military.  You're asking the right questions.  Just be open and look at it differently as Pete said. 

Trust me.  You can't just simply understand this right then!  It takes time to grasp it all.  I, myself as well as Pete and the rest of us that get it now, we too had some difficulty picking up on it.  It is the two witnesses plus everything else that needs to line up correctly for us to see the big picture. 

Right now, it sounds to me, you are putting the pieces of this complicated puzzle together not knowing what the full picture is as of this day and how Bible prophecy ties it all together. 

Just continue to be faithful and true to the Word and be open and honest about it.  Once you understand it, it will become clear to you so keep asking questions and you will find the answers you're looking for!

Hey Bita,

You'll notice that my OP was nearly a year ago, and (as you've likely guessed) I've learned much more.  I don't agree with some of the interpretation of some of the imagery in the slides that Ellis put together (i.e. the two horns of the lamb that speaks like a dragon, who/what the image of the beast actually is, etc), and some of the timing, but overall, the groundwork seems solid to me and has much expanded my ability to understand both the books of Daniel and Revelation.

Whatever the details, the same major conclusions are arrived at: Islam is the beast and Muhammad is antichrist and biblical prophecy points squarely at them.

What blows me away about all of it is that the conclusions are so glaringly obvious that people have a hard time believing that it could have been 'right under their nose' all of this time.  People are so stuck on the idea of antichrist being something akin to Nicolae Carpathia and a related pre-trib rapture that the simplicity of the historical view escapes them.

I even had someone (a preterist) tell me "oh, you take a historicist view of prophecy"... to which I responded "everyone is ultimately a historicist".  But it just completely escapes people... blank stares... constantly.

Mike S

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2014, 06:50:56 PM »
Hey guys - I don't comment often, but I've been through the same sort of stuff, except I was never really sold on the pre-trib rapture. When I found out the history of the futurist view, and that Darby also espoused a pre-trib view, that called into question the whole Great Tribulation at the end of time for me. Thus, it was an easy transition. I have recently joined a couple of Facebook Groups that promote a post-trib view, but most of the members are stuck in the futurist mindset, even though they recognise that the pre-trib rapture is false doctrine. When I showed them that the crucifixion of Christ and Dome of the Rock, etc. could be proven mathematically, I got responses like "mathematics=speculation" and "Pure speculation and manipulation of the simple, plain words of Scripture. All to fit a presupposed idea. smh (shaking my head)" They just can't see how the stuff going on in the world today lines right up with the prophecies. I even explained that my friend who discovered this went into it as a pre-trib/7year tribulation guy. Haven't had a direct response to that, but a couple explaining their futurist view. Telling them about the time, times, and halfa time was a whole lot of fun!Even today, someone discussed the future fulfillment in the Antichrist of Isaiah 14, which is telling the Jews that they will be freed from the Babylonian captivity and their captor punished.  This forum is the oly place anywhere that I have found other people who understand and agree with most of Ellis' teaching. We have a lonely path to walk, do we not. Blessings!

PeteWaldo

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2014, 05:13:03 AM »
Much has been made of the words in Revelation 11:3 that the faithful Jews and the born-again Christians in the Gentile Church "will prophesy 1260 days [= years]".  But Revelation 11:3 adds the words "clothed in sackcloth".  To me, this implies that, during their (undefined) total time of prophesying, the two witnesses will metaphorically "wear sackcloth" for 1260 years (because, for these 1260 years, "the woman is wandering in the wilderness").

The end of Jews wandering in the "wilderness" of the nations was date pinned to 1948 ("wilderness" as suggested by Eze 20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.)
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#revelation_1260_days

As for the "church" "clothed in sackcloth" (indicating such as humbleness, humility, or self-sacrifice) point, that 1948 was also about the time that the institutional church cast aside ordinances in earnest (like head coverings for women), and when the "falling away" really began to gain momentum. In today's church that sackcloth has been replaced by making a "decision" instead of the traditional doctrine of repentance, traditional hymns replaced by electric rock-n-roll music, well covered women by inappropriate dress, prosperity doctrine and other heresies - much of it driven by mammon. Some churches even being more preoccupied with their carbon footprint than our first love (Rev 2:4). The "church" casting aside the sackcloth and doctrine of repentance, or risk loosing parishioners.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm

In other words, it appears to me that the time of being "clothed in sackcloth" is 1260 years, rather than the total time of prophesying.  After all, some of us are still "prophesying" - or speaking forth the word of God.  How can we be sure what the apostle John was emphasizing here - or can we?

From the OP:

Two Witnesses  65

THE OTHER WITNESS

We can see 688 to 1948 as the time of Jewish witness, but
what about the second witness, the Church? How can the church's
time of witness be over since we are still here?
Well, look at what
has happened to the Church since 1948. Most Christian homes
have a Bible, but  few Christians still read  them or continue  to
witness to the lost. The immorality, involvement in the occult and
satanism in the western nations has mushroomed since 1948, and
the church has done little to slow the decay. As a result of our
apathy and questionable lifestyles that followed, much of the
Gentile church has fallen into apostasy.

Most churches in this country are terminally ill, many have
already fallen away, and Europe is far worse. Many are beyond
reach, "the sin unto spiritual death" (1 Jo 5:16). Since our battle
is really spiritual, one is inclined to wonder if the coming destruc-
tion of the visible Church may not be more spiritual than physical.
If it is, we are frighteningly close to that hour:1

Revelation 11:7   And when they [the Two Witnesses] shall have
finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the
bottomless  pit  shall  make  war  against  them,  and  shall
overcome them, and kill them.


One way or another, in the final hours of this age, the Two
Witnesses are going to be destroyed. Read Rev 11:7 in the original
Greek or in any translation you like. All predict the end of the
visible Church. How can that be? Didn't Jesus promise that the
gates of Hell would not prevail against His church? Yes, but the
__________________________________

1 The National Council  of Churches (to which your own church might belong)
joined the World Council of Churches in 1948. That organization has a declared
goal of causing social change rather than teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. That
is  what  "Liberation  Theology"  is  all  about.  It  is  reported  that  through  them,
millions of dollars from mainline denominational churches (your tithes included)
have gone to buy guns to support various third-world insurgent "liberation fronts."
As a result, it appears that the Gentile church has fallen into apostasy. As one
indicator of church conditions, elders and deacons within mainline churches have
become occultists and satanists or are into New Age.
_________________________________

 66  The False Prophet

true Church that remains isn't all those big buildings out there, it's
only a remnant now... a few hairs hidden in a hem of the Lord's
garment (Eze 5:3).

For the first time since the  invention of the printing press,
books on astrology, satanism, and the occult are outselling the
Bible.  Truth  has  fallen  in  the  street  (Isa  59:14),  and  the
consciences of our people have been seared as with a branding
iron (1Ti 4:2). This will eventually lead to a worldwide rejection
of  the Bible and of the Lord. As the spiritual decay deepens, a
ruthless and devastating evil will be unleashed upon this planet,
and it will come with an intensity unknown since the flood. It has
already begun.

 GRAPH NUMBER 9



What is a true Church to do when conditions become unbearable?
Later in this book, you will read how we may become united with

 Two Witnesses  67

the faithful Jews, to stand with them in steadfast array against the
enemies of the Lord:

If you haven't read The False Prophet yet, it would be appreciated by forum members if you would do so, as soon as possible. It will save us all a lot of otherwise unnecessary typing once you see everything in a complete picture through a brick by brick empirical argument.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_great_detective.htm

PeteWaldo

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2014, 05:35:51 AM »
Hey guys - I don't comment often, but I've been through the same sort of stuff, except I was never really sold on the pre-trib rapture. When I found out the history of the futurist view, and that Darby also espoused a pre-trib view, that called into question the whole Great Tribulation at the end of time for me. Thus, it was an easy transition. I have recently joined a couple of Facebook Groups that promote a post-trib view, but most of the members are stuck in the futurist mindset, even though they recognise that the pre-trib rapture is false doctrine. When I showed them that the crucifixion of Christ and Dome of the Rock, etc. could be proven mathematically, I got responses like "mathematics=speculation" and "Pure speculation and manipulation of the simple, plain words of Scripture. All to fit a presupposed idea. smh (shaking my head)" They just can't see how the stuff going on in the world today lines right up with the prophecies.

First of all, when you even use the word "math" some folks eyes immediately glaze over. 1. because it wasn't exactly their favorite subject in school and 2. because cults like SDA hijacked the day-year language of the Reformers.

The main reason I uploaded the Christian Eschatology website was to provide a starting point. A sort of slap across the face and shake by the lapels to get their attention. I believe it is important to point out to folks like those you are dealing with, that we take the TRADITIONAL approach to Bible prophecy of historicism, and that they are the ones that strayed off the reservation with eschatology that began to come into vogue in the 19th and was popularized in the 20th century "church". Point out that they themselves are historicist when it comes to Old Testament prophecy. Nobody has tried to argue against this with me.

"Historicism is a method of interpretation in Christian eschatology which attempts to associate biblical prophecies with actual historical events and identify symbolic beings with historical persons or societies. The Historicist school of prophetic interpretation results in a progressive and continuous fulfillment of prophecy....."
"The main texts of interest are apocalyptic literature, such as the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation, and historicist methods have been applied to ancient Jewish history, the Roman Empire, Mohammedism, the Papacy, the Modern era and even into the End time." - quoted from Wikipedia

That we take a UNIFORM approach to ALL Bible prophecy, just as those great men of God of the Reformation did. Like Isaac Newton, Matthew Henry, and Thieleman van Braght.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#day_year_language_prophecy

I even explained that my friend who discovered this went into it as a pre-trib/7year tribulation guy. Haven't had a direct response to that, but a couple explaining their futurist view. Telling them about the time, times, and halfa time was a whole lot of fun!

It certainly is the most stunning example in my opinion. Also it uses up their 3-1/2 year understanding of Daniel's prophecy. Our view works both mathematically and textually - stunningly.
"ended shattering the strength of the holy people" or "accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people" or "when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished".
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#time_of_the_end

Even today, someone discussed the future fulfillment in the Antichrist of Isaiah 14, which is telling the Jews that they will be freed from the Babylonian captivity and their captor punished.  This forum is the oly place anywhere that I have found other people who understand and agree with most of Ellis' teaching. We have a lonely path to walk, do we not. Blessings!

Ian Liddle

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2014, 10:01:30 AM »
Reading through the various posts above, I note that some people are confused by Revelation 11 verses 7 to 10.  First, when the beast (Islamic) makes war against the two witnesses and kills them (verse 7), it does not explicitly say that all members of each 'witness' are killed.  We know from other scriptures (like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) that there will be living members of the faithful Church who will be raptured along with the resurrected believers (whose rapture is described in Revelation 11:11-12).  Secondly, most Bible translations of Revelation 11:9 are technically inaccurate.  The Greek word that most Bibles render as "dead bodies" is ptoma, which is actually in the singular.  It can mean one dead body, or "corpse", or "carcase", or "ruins".  Given that each of the two witnesses is an ekklesia (a "church" or group of "called-out ones"), and that the English word "church" is interchangeably used to describe both an assembly of believers and also the place where they meet, I personally prefer to translate ptoma here as "ruins".  Take a look at the ruins of all the destroyed churches in Egypt (the one unambiguous place mentioned in Revelation 11:8 ), for example, which are still "lying in the street" after being attacked last summer.  We are seeing many verses of the Book of Revelation being fulfilled before our very eyes - and, yes, I do believe that we are currently in the middle of those three and a half "days" (years) that lead up to the rapture described in Revelation 11:11-12.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 03:43:09 AM by Ian Liddle »

truthofthematter

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2014, 07:34:50 PM »
Reading through the various posts above, I note that some people are confused by Revelation 11 verses 7 to 10.  First, when the beast (Islamic) makes war against the two witnesses and kills them (verse 7), it does not explicitly say that all members of each 'witness' are killed.  We know from other scriptures (like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) that there will be living members of the faithful Church who will be raptured along with the resurrected believers (whose rapture is described in Revelation 11:11-12).  Secondly, most Bible translations of Revelation 11:9 are technically inaccurate.  The Greek word that most Bibles render as "dead bodies" is ptoma, which is actually in the singular.  It can mean one dead body, or "corpse", or "carcase", or "ruins".  Given that each of the two witnesses is an ekklesia (a "church" or group of "called-out ones"), and that the English word "church" is interchangeably used to describe both an assembly of believers and also the place where they meet, I personally prefer to translate ptoma here as "ruins".  Take a look at the ruins of all the destroyed churches in Egypt (the one unambiguous place mentioned in Revelation 11:8 ), for example, which are still "lying in the street" after being attacked last summer.  We are seeing many verses of the Book of Revelation being fulfilled before our very eyes - and, yes, I do believe that we are currently in the middle of those three and a half "days" (years) that lead up to the rapture described in Revelation 11:11-12.

I Was thinking that we were in the time of the beast from the bottomless pit coming up to make war with the witness.  To my knowledge, Islam is attacking Christians in the middle east and Africa with elevated intensity in the last few years.  Then of course Israel is surrounded by enemies.  Is it possible that the 1260 days starting point for the two witness's might be different than the starting point of Daniel's prophecy that points to 688 AD?  And this is why this issue can be a bit confusing?

What if 1260 days starting point is more Christian in nature?  One day that stands out to me is the great earthquake of 790 AD in Constantinople.  The day after was a solar eclipse over the region.  3 years before was when the 7th ecumenical church made it mandatory to have an icon in every church. It was signed in Constantinople. This was when Rome and Constantinople agreed to it for both groups of Christians.  Before it was just Rome with icons steadily.  Emperors in Constantinople felt like every time this law was passed they would lose battles so they always tried to outlaw icons as a way to keep God's blessing.  Anyway this last 7th ecumenical counsel is known for making icons mandatory and a permanent thing. 

I see the power of fire and withholding rain and such as the power of prayer of believers appealing to God to bring judgement which are some of those judgements of the seals 1-6 and the trumpets 1-6.   

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Re: 6 - TWO WITNESSES
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2014, 07:48:49 PM »
Reading through the various posts above, I note that some people are confused by Revelation 11 verses 7 to 10.  First, when the beast (Islamic) makes war against the two witnesses and kills them (verse 7), it does not explicitly say that all members of each 'witness' are killed.  We know from other scriptures (like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) that there will be living members of the faithful Church who will be raptured along with the resurrected believers (whose rapture is described in Revelation 11:11-12).  Secondly, most Bible translations of Revelation 11:9 are technically inaccurate.  The Greek word that most Bibles render as "dead bodies" is ptoma, which is actually in the singular.  It can mean one dead body, or "corpse", or "carcase", or "ruins".  Given that each of the two witnesses is an ekklesia (a "church" or group of "called-out ones"), and that the English word "church" is interchangeably used to describe both an assembly of believers and also the place where they meet, I personally prefer to translate ptoma here as "ruins".  Take a look at the ruins of all the destroyed churches in Egypt (the one unambiguous place mentioned in Revelation 11:8 ), for example, which are still "lying in the street" after being attacked last summer.  We are seeing many verses of the Book of Revelation being fulfilled before our very eyes - and, yes, I do believe that we are currently in the middle of those three and a half "days" (years) that lead up to the rapture described in Revelation 11:11-12.

I Was thinking that we were in the time of the beast from the bottomless pit coming up to make war with the witness.  To my knowledge, Islam is attacking Christians in the middle east and Africa with elevated intensity in the last few years.  Then of course Israel is surrounded by enemies.  Is it possible that the 1260 days starting point for the two witness's might be different than the starting point of Daniel's prophecy that points to 688 AD?  And this is why this issue can be a bit confusing?

What if 1260 days starting point is more Christian in nature?  One day that stands out to me is the great earthquake of 790 AD in Constantinople.  The day after was a solar eclipse over the region.  3 years before was when the 7th ecumenical church made it mandatory to have an icon in every church. It was signed in Constantinople. This was when Rome and Constantinople agreed to it for both groups of Christians.  Before it was just Rome with icons steadily.  Emperors in Constantinople felt like every time this law was passed they would lose battles so they always tried to outlaw icons as a way to keep God's blessing.  Anyway this last 7th ecumenical counsel is known for making icons mandatory and a permanent thing. 

I see the power of fire and withholding rain and such as the power of prayer of believers appealing to God to bring judgement which are some of those judgements of the seals 1-6 and the trumpets 1-6.

The 1260 "days" are confirmed by the 42 "months" (as well as confirmed textually), both pointing to the founding year of 688 of the symbol of Islam in prophecy, the Dome of the Rock. The 1260 "days" from 688 to 1948 and the 42 "months" from 688 to 1967:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#revelation_1260_days

It would help get you up to speed and save us a lot of time if you read The False Prophet. Please just try a chapter or two:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_great_detective.htm