Author Topic: The two Witnesses of Revelations - Skolfield.  (Read 2300 times)

Daniel M

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The two Witnesses of Revelations - Skolfield.
« on: June 11, 2013, 07:19:58 AM »
Anyone know a lot about Ellis Skolfield. What I have read of his escatology so far seems logical to me, however, I would like a couple of answers from anyone who knows.
The first, first.
Re: The two Witnesses of Revelations chapter 11 are identified by Skolfield as Israel and the Gentile church. If so, then what is the "...fire that comes from their mouths and devours their enemies" (v 5),  "... their power to shut up the sky so that it might not rain while they are prophesying .. their power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want" (v 6)??
Much appreciated.

PeteWaldo

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Re: The two Witnesses of Revelations - Skolfield.
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2013, 08:03:00 AM »
Hi DanielM, and welcome to the forum! :)

Anyone know a lot about Ellis Skolfield. What I have read of his escatology so far ........

Did you read of it or read it? It is available free online in the form of The False Prophet:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm

As well as an extensive study guide:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2655.0

....... seems logical to me, however, I would like a couple of answers from anyone who knows.
The first, first.
Re: The two Witnesses of Revelations chapter 11 are identified by Skolfield as Israel and the Gentile church.

I would say a little more accurately, faithful Jews, and born again Christians.
As others put it before Skolfield:

Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ... "

Jamieson Faucett and Brown  "... I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "

If so, then what is the "...fire that comes from their mouths and devours their enemies" (v 5),  "... their power to shut up the sky so that it might not rain while they are prophesying .. their power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want" (v 6)??
Much appreciated.

The subject of the two witnesses has been discussed fairly extensively on the thread devoted to that chapter of The False Prophet at this link:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1336.0

If you are still left with questions please don't hesitate to ask on that thread, but it may help to back up to the fundamentals of one's entire approach to eschatology (there are only 4), rather than to begin by seeking understanding, of the figurative language used in an individual verse found within a prophetic dream, outside of an entire context, while wringing it through the filter of a doctrine or preconceived notion.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/

Might be best if I attach this thread to that one.

Again welcome to the forum!

Daniel M

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Re: The two Witnesses of Revelations - Skolfield.
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2013, 08:27:27 AM »
Pete,
Thanks. I was not aware that this topic had been discussed before. I'll read your suggested articles and get back to you if I have further questions.
Dan

ExMilitary

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Re: The two Witnesses of Revelations - Skolfield.
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2013, 11:41:15 PM »
I'll give this one a go because it is rather perplexing:

Quote
Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

Zechariah 4:12 And a second time I answered and said to him, “What are these two branches of the olive trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil is poured out?” 13 He said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”

Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches.

Quote
Rev 11:5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes.

Jeremiah 5:14 Therefore thus says the Lord, the God of hosts: Because you have spoken this word,behold, I am making my words in your mouth a fire, and this people wood, and the fire shall consume them.

Isaish 5:21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight! 22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink, 23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe, and deprive the innocent of his right! 24 Therefore, as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and as dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root will be as rottenness, and their blossom go up like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord of hosts, and have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Quote
Rev 11:6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying

Deuteronomy 32:2 “Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak, and let the earth hear the words of my mouth. 2 May my teaching drop as the rain, my speech distill as the dew, like gentle rain upon the tender grass, and like showers upon the herb. 3 For I will proclaim the name of the Lord; ascribe greatness to our God!

It may be that those that prophesy (as in Jesus day) are able to shut the heavens over a city or people group (stopping the gentle rain of God's word upon the grass) when they reject the gospel.  We were instructed to shake the dust off our sandals as a sign against the people.  I don't know if you've ever preached God's word to a people that will not hear, but, when the truth gnaws at their conscience, it is like a plague of drought.

Isaiah 55:10 10 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,  and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Jesus himself shut up the heavens from the rain of God's word because HE KNEW it would not return void: Matthew 13:10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them... because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.” 15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’

Quote
Rev 11:6 and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood

Religion, all other religion, offers false water... that is made completely undrinkable (as it was when Moses turned the waters to blood in Egypt) in the light of Truth.  Again, showing people the error of their ways creates a drought in which they can find no water.

Three times in Jeremiah it is mentioned that the people know the Lord is allowing the enemy beseige the people and poison (possibly stagnation followed by disease) the water supply.  What they think is “living water” is become death to them because the godlessness of the false prophets within the people themselves has led them astray... and the people, knowing better, followed gladly.

In the same way, prophesying against all systems (money, politics, Islam) in which people put their hope is like poisoning the water they think is bringing them life.  Without the Son, they are always parched... seeking, seeking, seeking after the wrong thing that never satisfies the thirst.


Daniel M

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Re: The two Witnesses of Revelations - Skolfield.
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2013, 01:39:29 AM »
Hi ExMilitary,
Thanks. Nice piece of work.
I am only a novice at Amillenialism but after reading Ellis Skolfield I believe there is much merit to his interpretations.
I am probably a little like you, seeking the truth mainly. I come from an Open Gospel background where Premillenialism was the go, however, I came to realize that there are some bible verses that do not match up with this view.
Hope we can all learn something here.
Regards
dan

PeteWaldo

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Re: The two Witnesses of Revelations - Skolfield.
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2013, 04:43:50 AM »
Hi ExMilitary,
Thanks. Nice piece of work.
I am only a novice at Amillenialism but after reading Ellis Skolfield I believe there is much merit to his interpretations.

I woke up this morning thinking I should have directed you toward exploring the entire context first, and for this reason. While Ellis was inspired to experiment with the math that resulted in his book, as you can see from the reformers I quoted, they also shared opinion.

The main thing to understand is that the historicist context in which this study is found, is the same context in which ALL Christians and Jews understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled. All Christians and Jews are historicists when it comes to the Old Testament. The available evidence suggests that the church was also historicist, right up until the mid-19th centuries when the pop-eschatologies of futurism and partial preterism began to come into vogue.

So rather than following an individual, what you actually did was wander back onto the reservation, where the church was for 3300 years, and up until the last couple hundred years when it left. Blinding it to the fact that 1.5 billion Muslims in the world today are taught that to confess that Jesus is the Son of God or even pray in Jesus' name, constitutes the single most egregious - and ONLY UNFORGIVABLE - SIN in THE false prophet Muhammad's cult. As opposed to raping a little girl or cold-blooded mass murder, for example, which may be forgiven. (both of which as it happens Muhammad was guilty of).

Thus Islam is basically the perfection of antichrist. 1/4 of mankind in the world today are specifically and necessarily antichrist, as an article of their faith, in Muhammad alone.

There is no reason for anyone to believe that the Lord would arrange New Testament prophecy to be fulfilled in a different manner, than we all understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm

So rather than following an individual named Ellis Skolfield, you simply appreciate his Dan-Rev study within the TRADITIONAL context of historicism, and join with those great men of God of the Reformation like Matthew Henry, Isaac Newton, Theileman van Braght as well as Puritans like Oliver Cromwell, who anticipated the restoration of Jews to their land centuries before that restoration began to take place.

This while futurists irrefutably follow a 19th century individual named John Nelson Darby who assembled their eschatological scheme:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/futurism_dispensationalism.htm#history_futurism

And partial preterists follow a 17th century Roman Catholic Jesuit named Luis Alcazar:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/partial_preterism.htm#jesuit_luis_alcazar

So it is we historicists that is in plenty of good company. Those inspired great men of God who rescued the ecclesia from the dead formalism of the Roman Catholic Church.

The reason the Lord opened Ellis Skolfield's eyes is because he was genuinely seeking, through a two year full-time study, in which he studies only scripture, setting aside commentaries and other distractions. The reason it didn't happen until now is because the book of Daniel was sealed until the "time of the end", so nobody could have understood until after 1967, or at least until after 1948. Just as recognized by great men of God from centuries before the book was unsealed. (5th paragraph at this link)
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm


I am probably a little like you, seeking the truth mainly. I come from an Open Gospel background where Premillenialism was the go, however, I came to realize that there are some bible verses that do not match up with this view.

Here's a few by my reckoning:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/futurism_dispensationalism.htm#futurism_vs_gospel

Hope we can all learn something here.
Regards
dan

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Re: The two Witnesses of Revelations - Skolfield.
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2013, 11:24:38 AM »
I am probably a little like you, seeking the truth mainly. I come from an Open Gospel background where Premillenialism was the go, however, I came to realize that there are some bible verses that do not match up with this view.

Here's a few by my reckoning:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/futurism_dispensationalism.htm#futurism_vs_gospel

Hope we can all learn something here.
Regards
dan

From the tract: [With knowledge of the new covenant, how could anyone] Believe [a physical earthly] temple could ever be consecrated, to then be desolated, when our high priest is seated in the true tabernacle that the Lord pitched, and rules in His kingdom today?

This is a profound point.  The entire book of Galatians could be applied here.

I'm wandering a little off topic here, but it was actually the idea of 'dual covenant theology' that got me started in this direction.  I began to question the extreme interpretations of the dual covenant because of the Hebrews 8:8 passage quoted in the tract, "I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people."

I am opening myself up here for much criticism, so please be gentle.   :)

What you run into in today's pop theology is this idea that the law has been done away with, which just isn't the case.  Yes, the old system was done away with, the old ways were done away with (because they were just shadows of Christ), the Levitical law was made of none effect, but righteousness was never eliminated.  The Levitical law has been replaced with a better covenant.  But, the commandments of God have not been replaced.  God's character can not be replaced.

When you read Exodus, you find out that, of all the law that was given at Mt. Sinai, the only part of the law that was given directly from God's mouth to the people's ears was the Decalogue.  All other law was communicated by God through Moses either by oral repetition or on written tablets.  Again, in the ark... the Decalogue, not the Levitical law.  I believe the Decalogue is special... I believe the Decalogue is what is written on the hearts of men... but only indirectly.

And you find, in Revelation 11:19, "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail."

The temple of God is??... the Church, the bride of Christ.  Inside the ark is contained??... the Decalogue, Aaron's staff (authority of priesthood), jar of manna (God's promise of provision and sustenance - bread from heaven).  What is the Church comprised of??? men... the hearts of men... therefore, in Christ, men's hearts contain the law, priesthood (as belaboured in 1 Peter), and the sustenance of his living word.

1 John 3:4 "Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness."

Jesus revealed a "secret" when he came.  Sin isn't about breaking this or that commandment, but when you sin commandment-breaking is the result.  No, the origins of sin are rooted in lovelessness.  Jesus said that all of the law and prophets hang on 1. Love for God, 2. Love for people.  Jesus personified it.  The Decalogue attests to it.

Now, I'm not going to belabour this point, but what has been birthed today is the idea that Christians can sin as much as they want and they'll be forgiven.

Matthew 23:28 "So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness"
Matthew 24:12 "And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold"
Romans 6:19 "For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification"
2 Corinthians 6:14 "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?"
2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction"
2 Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way."
Titus 2:14 "who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works."

It isn't about justifying yourself by keeping the 10 commandments, but rather, when the 10 commandments are transgressed, it is only proof that love has been ignored and forsaken for a moment of satisfying the flesh.

Am I under the law?  No.  Do I keep the ten commandments?  The answer is this, they are a schoolmaster that leads to Christ.  If I love as the Spirit of Christ empowers me, then I will not slander my neighbor.  If I love as the Spirit of Christ empowers me, then I will not blaspheme God's name.  If I love as the Spirit of Christ empowers me, then I will not seek after pornography.  Will I be tempted?  Yes, but HIS Spirit must rule in me.

And when I fall, I have an advocate that intercedes for me in in heaven.

But what I see at work in the world is a falling away into the "mystery of lawlessness".  I see the "love of many" growing "cold" because the "mystery of lawlessness" is at work.  That mystery's ultimate meaning is a lack of love, and therefore a lack of believing God.

PeteWaldo

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Re: The two Witnesses of Revelations - Skolfield.
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2013, 05:49:39 AM »
There is no reason for anyone to believe that the Lord would arrange New Testament prophecy to be fulfilled in a different manner, than we all understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm

So rather than following an individual named Ellis Skolfield, you simply appreciate his Dan-Rev study within the TRADITIONAL context of historicism, and join with those great men of God of the Reformation like Matthew Henry, Isaac Newton, Theileman van Braght as well as Puritans like Oliver Cromwell, who anticipated the restoration of Jews to their land centuries before that restoration began to take place.

This while futurists irrefutably follow a 19th century individual named John Nelson Darby who assembled their eschatological scheme:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/futurism_dispensationalism.htm#history_futurism

And partial preterists follow a 17th century Roman Catholic Jesuit named Luis Alcazar:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/partial_preterism.htm#jesuit_luis_alcazar

So it is we historicists that is in plenty of good company. Those inspired great men of God who rescued the ecclesia from the dead formalism of the Roman Catholic Church.

The reason the Lord opened Ellis Skolfield's eyes is because he was genuinely seeking, through a two year full-time study, in which he studies only scripture, setting aside commentaries and other distractions. The reason it didn't happen until now is because the book of Daniel was sealed until the "time of the end", so nobody could have understood until after 1967, or at least until after 1948. Just as recognized by great men of God from centuries before the book was unsealed. (5th paragraph at this link)
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm

What I didn't emphasize is that when you see how Isaac Newton, Henry and van Braght approached Bible prophecy - the way ALL Jews and Christians approach Old Testament prophecy, it isn't is very reasonable to expect that they would have drawn the very same conclusions that Ellis did. Indeed they seemed frustrated that they couldn't, because they knew they didn't live in the time of the end, and that was the reason they couldn't.

Matthew Henry "….if the beginning of that interval could be ascertained, this number of prophetic days, taking a day for a year, would give us a prospect of when the end might be."