Author Topic: The Well of Zamzam and Hagar (Hajar)  (Read 21883 times)

Peter

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The Well of Zamzam and Hagar (Hajar)
« on: March 16, 2010, 03:38:18 PM »
By Dr. Rafat Amari - Islam: In Light of History
(Typed out here by Pete. Any typographical errors are mine.)
New web page

page 100-103

The well which God showed to Hagar in the Wilderness of Beersheba was not the well of Zamzam at Mecca.

We can read in Genesis that Ishmael lived in the region south of Canaan near his nephew, Esau. In fact, the Bible goes into some detail about their relationship, showing that they were in constant contact with one other. And Ishmael would have had to live there for many years, because Esau married Ishmael's daughter, according to Genesis 28.9. At that time, when Ishmael and his mother were sent away from Abraham's house in Beersheba, South of Palestine, they could not have walked more than 50 or 100 miles before the skin of water she carried was empty. Let's read the story as told in the book of Genesis.

Gen 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave [it] unto Hagar, putting [it] on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.    15  And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.     16  And she went, and sat her down over against [him] a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against [him], and lift up her voice, and wept.

(Map of Beersheba http://bibleatlas.org/full/beersheba.htm)

19  And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.    20  And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.    21  And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
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This map section inserted into Dr. Amari's paper by Pete
(map locating the wilderness of Paran) http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-wilderness-of-paran.htm
(map Jerusalem to Mt. Paran) http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-mt-sinai-paran-jerusalem-dawn-from-seir-north.jpg
click on the maps to enlarge




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These words are from Genesis, chapter 31, verses 14 through 21. Look at the facts concerning Ishmael and his mother. The well which God showed Hagar was in Beersheba, not very far from where Abraham had previously lived. It was in South Canaan. The well that the Lord showed to Hagar could not have been the well of Zamzam at Mecca, as Muslims claim, because the well of Mecca is more than a thousand miles from Beersheba. Obviously, Hagar could not possibly have been carrying a water supply for a thousand-mile walk. Even if she had food and water, the great distance between Hebron and Mecca was through an uninhabited desert, untraveled in her time, without any city or village for her to rest in. She would have needed more than a year to walk to her destination. She would have been an unescorted woman, traveling by foot. She would have had no caravan to carry her and no directions from previous travelers.

We know that the first record of the Egyptians about Yemen was in the 14th century B.C., centuries after Hagar's time. It was only in that 14th century B.C. that the Egyptians knew there were people living in Yemen. Those Egyptians gave us the first historical record about that land. The oldest report on southern Arabia came from the times of the Pharaoh, Tuthmosis III, in the middle of the 14th century B.C.2 It was not until the 12th century B.C. that the first kingdom in Yemen started. That was called the Sabaean Kingdom, about nine centuries after Abraham lived. So you see, Before the appearance of the Sabaeans, the desert between Palestine and Yemen was never crossed by any caravan. Also, the cities which were built on the caravan road appeared very late in history, because the land route was not adopted by the Yemeni until much later. According to scholars and historians, a marine route was adopted before a land route, because marine travel was faster and less dangerous than land travel. Scholars do not believe the marine route was adopted before the 12th century B.C., and the land route along the Red Sea was not developed until the 3rd century B.C.

Thus, saying that Hagar and Ishmael crossed the desert to Mecca is a ridiculous statement, which can be accepted only by persons who ignore completely the history of Arabia. In Hagar's time, there was no relationship between Palestine and Yemen there was no kingdom known in Yemen' and no civilization which existed in Western Arabia in the regions where Mecca was eventually built. As I stated before, the land route from Yemen toward the North of Arabia by the Red sea started only in the 3rd century B.C. Since then, some villages have been built as stations for the caravans to refresh themselves. Prior to that time, caravans avoided that dangerous desert. The Yemeni used to sail the Red Sea, avoiding this long and dangerous deserted segment to reach ports near Ilat, which is now a seaport in Israel near Aqaba, the Jordanian port. Some cities along the Red Sea were established only after the land route flourished around the 1st century A.D. But not Mecca.

Greek and Roman geographers walked the land route after it started in the 3rd century B.C. They mentioned the villages and cities which were established along the Red Sea, where Mecca was eventually built. They mentioned the tiny and trivial villages and stations where caravans stopped. They mentioned each temple which existed in the regions of West Arabia. Not one mentioned Mecca, or that a temple existed in the area where Mecca was later built.

Geographers also described the tribes and people living in West Arabia. But, when describing the area where Mecca was later built, they all said that it was an uninhabitable region of sand where only dangerous nomads moved from time to time. There were not real settlements or villages. We have a clear picture of this fact from the times of Herodotus, the famous Greek historian and geographer who lived in the 5th century B.C., and throughout all consecutive centuries after Herodotus until the 4th century A.D. During this span of time, several Greek and Roman historians walked that route, and also wrote about it.

We clearly see historical documentation that Mecca didn't exist before the Christian era, nor in the first few centuries after Christ lived on earth. This definitely refutes the Islamic claim that Mecca was in existence at the time of Abraham, and also refutes the claim of the Qur'an that the temple at Mecca was built by Ishmael and Abraham. Thereby, history excludes any connection between the pagan temple and the Biblical monotheistic faith which Abraham and his son Isaac, and Isaac's descendants, were entrusted with until the coming of Christ, who is the fulfillment of the revelation given to Abraham and to all the prophets of the Old Testament.

Peter

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Re: The Well of Zamzam and Hagar
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2010, 09:38:13 AM »
"Abraham took Hagar and her son, Ishmael to a place near the Kabah; he left them under a tree at the site of Zamzam. No one lived in Makkah back then, yet Abraham made them sit there, leaving them with some dates, and a small water-skin. Thereafter he set out towards home."
http://www.thekeytoislam.com/en/what-do-you-know-about/station-of-abraham-and-zamzam-well.shtml

So Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael walk a thousand miles to Mecca, through what at the time was uninhabited, uncharted, untraveled and unknown desert, then Abraham leaves Hagar and Ishmael under a tree with "some dates, and a small water-skin", then turns around to walk the thousand miles back home.

Anyone beginning to get the picture here?

How about this one. Zamzam water is both water and food! (however the only nutrient mentioned is a slightly elevated level of calcium, as in many waters around the world!)
http://www.ezsoftech.com/hajj/hajj_article2.asp

The continuing superstitions of these folks indicate how little they have developed over the last 1400 years. At least 1400 years ago they had an excuse for being ignorant to geography.
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2%20/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=138391

Here is another handle on what's really going on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y17zPJriDUw

Peter

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Re: The Well of Zamzam and Hagar (Hajar)
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2010, 08:33:57 AM »
This post is copied here. To comment on it on it's own thread to avoid redundant posting please go to this link.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2026.0

One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Indeed. One is fighting in the cause of regaining one's freedom.
An example of a terrorist is the one that engages in imperialistic conquest, to take away the freedom of others, and subjugate and enslave the formerly free people to the will of a satanic cult. Indeed Mohammed was perhaps the most consummate terrorist in the history of mankind.
But that's a topic we are covering in other threads - DO NOT address it on this thread.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1934.0
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=53.0


THIS THREAD IS NOTHING BUT SPECULATION ON YOUR PART WHEN YOU SAY THAT HAGAR WAS NOT TAKEN BY ABRAHAM TO MAKKAH. PURE unadulterated conjecture and it has nothing to do with the burial place of Abraham.

My dear fellow, "PURE unadulterated conjecture" is to suggest that Abraham, Hagar, or Ishmael ever had a thing to do with where Mecca was eventually settled around the 4th century AD, since the whole preposterous notion springs purely from the 7th and 8th century created so-called "tradition" of Mohammed's followers. That's waaaaay beyond speculation, and even beyond the wildest conjecture, and cannot possibly be characterized as other than pure unadulterated fiction. The actual historical record contained in scripture - confirmed by archaeological evidence - describes where Abraham journeyed. Indeed never within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was eventually built - whichever presumed location for Mt. Sinai one measures from.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca.htm



How would a bunch of ignorant 7th century southeast Arabian desert dwellers, have had any idea what went on 2900 years before? Perhaps they went to the library in Mecca to read about it?

Just look at what a number they did on Mohammed's genealogy!
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1317.0

Indeed how could they have known the Kaaba, in any way other than it had been home to some 360 idols that had been venerated by Mohammed's own pagan Quraish tribe of, moon, sun, star and jinn-demon worshipers?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1906.0
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=56.0

QURAN SAYS......

And there's the problem. You believe this unhistorical hogwash purely because Mohammed and his boys were willing to create and declare it in the 7th and 8th centuries AD.

.... ZAM ZAM (WATER GIVEN TI HAGAR IS STILL FLOWING IN MAKKAH) .....

Well then that must confirm everything!
My poor indoctrinated, deluded friend, artesian wells "flow".

ARTESIAN WELLS

Like this one in Murray Oklahoma



According to Islamic history the well of Zamzam was dug by Mohammed's grandfather Abdel Mutaleb. (Ibn Hisham, I, pages 117 and 118)
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1209.0
"Originally water from the well was drawn via ropes and buckets..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamzam_Well#Technical_information
Zamzam doesn't "flow" my friend. The water just sits there down in the ground like any other common well that has to be pumped.
And ancient wells that still have water in them all over the Holy Land, and in Arabia too, from long before the time that Mohammed's grandfather dug the well of Zamzam.
And of course there are millions of wells, all over the world today, that maintain their levels.
And rechargeable aquifers from which millions of gallons are pumped daily. http://coastgis.marsci.uga.edu/summit/aquifers.htm

....... THE ZAM ZAM is the purest water on earth......

    * Sodium 133 mg/L
    * Calcium 96 mg/L
    * Magnesium 38.88 mg/L
    * Potassium 43.3 mg/L
    * Bicarbonate 195.4 mg/L
    * Chloride 163.3 mg/L
    * Fluoride 0.72 mg/L
    * Nitrate 124.8 mg/L
    * Sulfate 124.0 mg/L
    * pH 8
    * Total dissolve alkalinity 835 mg/L

....... tested, not a single bacteria found in the well for the last One thousand  four hundred years at least.

So who are we to suppose, was testing the well for bacteria, 1400 years ago?

Miracle?

Only a miracle to someone who never bothers to investigate what he has been indoctrinated to believe.

"Zamzam water has no colour or smell, but it has a distinct taste, and its pH is 7.9–8.0, indicating that it is alkaline to some extent and is similar to seawater."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamzam_Well#Technical_information

"The water level is 3.23 m (10.6 ft) below the surface."
So whether you were indoctrinated to believe the 7th century fable of Ishmael stamping his foot on the ground, or the 7th century fable of Gabriel brushing a wing across the ground, how do you suppose Hagar got access to water that was 10 feet deep? With a foxhole shovel? Perhaps another Mohammedan so-called "miracle"? Or has the well perhaps been dropping it's level? Is that the miracle?

You the first scholar I have encountered in my 45 years as a Muslim that has ever presented the topic, and your knowledge is very limited,

My friend, where are YOUR SCHOLARS presenting evidence that Mohammed's religion ever existed before Mohammed?
http://www.historyofmecca.com/
That is of course, from other than the 7th and 8th century created Mohammedan fiction, labeled "tradition".


Go back in history and find out who the first people were that gathered true knowledge, who crossed the Mediterranean about 1000 years before any European dared?

Yes  superiority of knowledge still exists with the Muslims, ......

As you've repeatedly demonstrated in this forum.
Nobody could ever accuse Mohammed's followers of linear thinking when it comes to Mohammed's religion. Nor of investigating the record of Mohammed's religion, from before Mohammed.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=56.0

..... maybe not technologically but definitely religiously.

No question you've succeeded at pounding Mohammed and his boys 7th century religious invention into yourselves.

This post is copied here. To comment on it on it's own thread to avoid redundant posting please go to this link.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2026.0

PeteWaldo

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Re: The Well of Zamzam and Hagar (Hajar)
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2013, 08:46:15 AM »
Ishaq:66/Tabari VI:2 "It is alleged, and Allah only knows the truth, that Abdul Muttalib encountered opposition when he was digging Zamzam. He vowed that if given ten sons, to make his labor less arduous and to protect him, he would sacrifice one of them to Allah at the Ka'aba."
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Does_Allah_mean_God.Islam