Luke 19:27 "...bring hither, and slay [them] before me."

[Pete]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKyQkiaqNPs
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

Does this verse suggest that Jesus was engaged in, or taught, violence against others?

While Jesus is speaking, the words in the quoted verse above aren't attributable to Jesus. Jesus is delivering a parable and the words in the verse above are what Jesus is quoting the "nobleman" in His story as saying. It's obvious in the context below.

It is important to understand why Jesus spoke in parables:

Mar 4:9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

Several Muslims I have encountered search the New Testament for something that Jesus preached, or did, that was more violent than overturning the tables of the moneychangers. The reason being that they wish that Jesus was guilty of the things that their imperialistic 7th century "prophet" Mohammed was. But they are taught through the Quran that Jesus was absolutely sinless, so such a search is really quite misguided for a Muslim to undertake. Mohammed was, and taught, the EXACT OPPOSITE of Yeshua (means "YHWH saves"). When I see such an exercise as this Luke 19:27 being removed from context and falsely presented, being repeated so frequently, I usually find that it has Ahmed Deedat's fingerprints all over it.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=119.0

There is no excuse for being so lazy as to take someone's word for what the bible says, since access to electronic bibles is so easy. Just type a few words of a verse, or the book and verse number in the following link and you can read any verse in context: http://www.blueletterbible.org/
Default is the King James Version. The most widely used and respected English version, based on the Textus Receptus or majority Greek text - the "received text".

These folks put their effort into MISunderstanding God's Word and thus become straight-up accusers of Jesus Christ. Those are the last shoes that I would want to be caught dead in, when standing in judgment before Jesus Christ.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

But we should expect it:
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

So much effort is put into accusing Jesus that many like Ahmed Deedat in full knowledge FALSELY accuse Jesus then their minions follow like sheep. Let's look at the passage with a little more context:

Luk 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
Luk 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this [man] to reign over us.
Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Luk 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
Luk 19:18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
Luk 19:20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, [here is] thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
Luk 19:21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
Luk 19:22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, [thou] wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
Luk 19:23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
Luk 19:24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give [it] to him that hath ten pounds.
Luk 19:25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.
Luk 19:28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.

If you want to study with the Greek Textus Receptus Interlinear, a quick drop down menu can be found at this link: http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm
(however I caution against using the New King James which that site uses as it's default bible)

This parable is a lesson in what we are expected to do with the gifts that God gives us. Simply summarized, we can hide or ignore them and suffer the consequences, or use them and multiply them and be rewarded.

Since there are no accounts of Jesus going to battle in the New Testament, except in the spiritual sense, or Jesus using a sword against anyone, or recommending using a sword against anyone indeed we are to love our enemies, so when we see reference to a sword it is usually a reference to the one that I carry and use throughout this forum and related websites:
 
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

In fact, even in the Old Testament, the prophets laid down swords, or suggestion of the use of the sword in God's service, 1500 years before Mohammed was born.

Jesus is going to return to earth. The following verse is a part of the description of the final harvest when EVERYONE will be sorted out:
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The message of the parable is also that Jesus will be as that nobleman in final judgment, to those that do not submit to His will, and allow Him to reign over them.

A parable is a story that Jesus used to illustrate a point. The passage above begins at the parable's beginning, and ends when Jesus finishes telling the story, and then heads up to Jerusalem.


God's Word cannot be understood by someone putting their effort into MISunderstanding. Here's why:
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

So we have to first surrender ourselves, and then put our effort into understanding, and ask God for guidance through the Holy Spirit. Jesus will help even the unregenerate with understanding, if they are willing to put their trust in Him.
This is particularly important regarding this parable passage.

Until we repent and are forgiven we can't expect to understand parables. But once we live a life with Christ Jesus, God's Holy Word opens up to us, and it is a wonderful blessing to see it like a giant woven tapestry. A time line that runs from the very beginnings of mankind, until we were given a new covenant through Jesus Christ's shed blood, through which all mankind may be saved.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it.

Indeed, the very term Jew would seem redefined, at least in the spiritual sense:
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

So as saved Christians it would seem that we may be more Jew, then even a genealogical Jew, that is an atheist or agnostic. While some regenerate Jews may have been prevented from recognizing Jesus as their Messiah:
http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/spirit_of_slumber.htm

It all boils down to faith, and having such a love of the truth that we ferret out exactly where it lies. I was taught Christian futurist doctrine by a televangelist who has been on TV for over 50 years. I pounded it into myself with tapes and books for 12 or so years. At the time I was taught it I didn't even know any other view of Revelation existed in the church! Eventually, once I began to write about the doctrine, the Lord led me to overcome that pop-19th century eschatology, and it was truly a blessing. Today my bible study becomes ever clearer.

Here is a terrifying passage for those that don't share a love of the truth:

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUc_9pVUiI4

[believergod33]

[Pete]

1 - who told you that i bring the verse from the Internet ?no pete i was read the bible more than 10 times and it is stay on my room beside the quran book.

Welcome back believer.  :-)
I'll start here. What happens when you read the 115 or so verses in God's Word that declare Jesus to be the Son of God?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.msg148#msg148

Let alone the 10 that declare Him to be the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=55.0

[Pete]

[Pete]

you who tell this words i,sn't you?
In fact, even in the Old Testament, the prophets laid down swords, or suggestion of the use of the sword in God's service, 1500 years before Mohamed was born.
here is my  opposite proof about what you say ,the old Testament is full of the crime fights (just for destruction)
EZ 4:7

Thanks for the correction. I should have said 1200 years before Mohammed was born, not 1500. Ezekiel was carried into captivity in Babylon in 597 BC.
The book of Deuteronomy, of course, written long before that, at about 2,000 years before Mohammed was born.

Did you ever stop to wonder why it is, that all of your effort seems to be expended on trying to paint the God of the bible, and Jesus Christ, to be evil?

The term antichrist isn't just a word my friend. It is a spirit that guides the heart of a man.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=125.0

[believergod33]

thanks my friend,


about this link ,

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.msg148#msg148

i am sorry to tell you that i am not believe this verses of bible which call that Jesus is son of god.
I believe that the real  Bible is the Word of God, however, I believe that the Bible was also "tainted" by man (priest Jerome ).

i believe the other verses which  learning a nobility of character  because it's logically that come from god, anyway this is not a good way to persuasion me.
do you know my friend when the first time all the people decided  that Jesus is son of god?
After 300 years of the death of Jesus, the caesar Kstuntin issued the decree-law to the church about the law of faith , highly ordered from him to make Jesus the Son of God ,
 Luke, Matthew and mark  wrote them Gospel of Jesus after almost two generations of Jesus  die.
john was his first appearance after three generations of the death of Jesus
nobody from people how live with Jesus write the bible ,but Luke, Matthew , mark and john, all of them write the bible inspire with the law of faith  who decree-law caesar Kstuntin issued it.
that the Bible has been altered, to greater and lesser degrees, by man , how God allows this!!!

The following WHOLE verses have been removed in the NIV--whether in the text or footnotes...over 40 IN ALL!!!
Matthew 12:47 -- removed in the footnotes

Matthew 17:21 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."

Matthew 18:11 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."

Matthew 21:44 -- removed in the footnotes

Matthew 23:14 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."

Mark 7:16 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."

Mark 9:44 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Mark 9:46 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Mark 11:26 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

Mark 15:28 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"And the ******ure was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors."

Mark 16:9-20 (all 12 verses) -- There is a line separating the last 12 verses of Mark from the main text. Right under the line it says: [The two most reliable early manu******s do not have Mark 16:9-20] (NIV, 1978 ed.) The Jehovah's Witness "Bible" also places the last 12 verses of Mark as an appendix of sorts.

Luke 17:36 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Luke 22:44 -- removed in the footnotes

Luke 22:43 -- removed in the footnotes

Luke 23:17 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"(For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)"

John 5:4 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had."

John 7:53-8:11 -- removed in the footnotes

Acts 8:37 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. It's deletion makes one think that people can be baptized and saved without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Sounds Catholic. What are you NIV readers missing?
"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Acts 15:34 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still."

Acts 24:7 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,"

Acts 28:29 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves."

Romans 16:24 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."


I John 5:7 -- Vitally important phrase COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. In the NIV it says,
"For there are three that testify:"
Compare the NIV reading with the following Jehovah's Witness reading--
"For there are three witness bearers,"
What are you NIV readers missing? What does the real Bible say?
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one


See this link and be sure there is noone can counterfeiting  the history
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

====================================================================================




about the second link .

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=55.0

I DON'T AGREE WITH HOW TELL THAT  God had carnal sexual relations with Mary.(peace be upon here)
It this is just theory to show  and proof to you that is your faith is not logically, but all Muslims know that Mary become pregnant by the Holy Spirit (Gabriel)



i find your Question there.
YOU ASK If God wasn't Jesus' Father, and Jesus wasn't God's Son, then who is Jesus Father? Before you ask how is the Jesus Father
I must ask if you know how is the Eve mother?
Or know how is the Adam father and mother?

If you are consider Jesus is Son of God  because he was born without a father ,
then  consider Adam as the first god because he was born without any mother or father , but Jesus  was have a mother ,
and Eve as well must be a god  because  she created with strangest creation more than Adam and Jesus  , she was created from Adam's rib ,

God created human beings by different way to show us his ability ,
- created Adam without male or female,
- and created Jesus from female without male .
- and the created  Eve from male without a female (from Adam)
 - and created all human beings from male and a female ,because he is god, he is the lord ,he don't ask about what he did but he ask as what we did

if you can know who is the father and mother of Adam, or who is the mother of Eve, then we can know who is the father of Jesus. could you know?
Please show me where in the Bible it says that Jesus said he is God and worship me?

Jhon 17:3
3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ro 1:23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
all what we know about Mary in Quran

it That does not mean that Jesus was born without a father , that meaning he was a son of god!!! all we know about Jesus's father  in the Quran is what god say to us about Mary .


 Surah 19 (MARYAM) Verse 17:18:19:20:21


She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God."
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."


and the meaning of (god spirit)here is angel Gabriel,the greater angels
he don't like the other angels.
here is the proof tat spirit meaning angel

 Surah 78 (AL-NABA') Verse 38
The Day that the Spirit and the angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (God) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right.

and

 Surah 97 (AL-QADR) Verse 4
Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by God's permission, on every errand:

that's like what bible say too,but in the bible

luke 27:37

27  To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28  And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29  And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30  And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31  And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34  Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36  And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37  For with God nothing shall be impossible.

every thing like the Quran but the last part was changed,to  make Jesus be like a god

[believergod33]

that all of your effort seems to be expended on trying to paint the God of the bible, and Jesus Christ, to be evil?



trying to paint the God of the bible, and Jesus Christ, to be evil?

(((  i really wondering pete,isn't this what do you trying to do with Islam !! ?? )))

why is it permissible to you and forbidden to me?!!! by which logic you are thinking?


anyway ,no my friend that's not true ,but all what i try to proof too you that if i really misunderstand the bible and Christianity ,mostly you are too misunderstand Islam and Quran (that's a good result 1 + 1 =2)that's right?   

[Pete]

thanks my friend,


about this link ,

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.msg148#msg148

i am sorry to tell you that i am not believe this verses of bible which call that Jesus is son of god.

That's what makes you an antichrist, my friend.

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

I believe that the real  Bible is the Word of God, however, I believe that the Bible was also "tainted" by man (priest Jerome ).

The reason I put links in posts is so I don't have to repeat myself. Discovery of some of the original papyrii in 1947 in Qumran, particularly from the book of Daniel demonstrate that God's Word was handed down to us very much intact.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=97.0

The following WHOLE verses have been removed in the NIV--whether in the text or footnotes...over 40 IN ALL!!!

I am well aware of this. Many more than 40 verses were corrupted in that version. We have to seek out the truth. Christianity, and God's Word, has been under Satanic attack since the 1st century. Don't look for Satan to be convincing men to try to change the Quran. It is his book.

That is why I earlier warned you against relying on a modern pop-bible version like the NIV (which, incidentally is owned by Rupert Murdock) that is based on a corrupt 19th century minority Greek text written by two spiritualists (perhaps even satanists). Click on the following link for a real eye-popper: http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=81.0

[Pete]

that all of your effort seems to be expended on trying to paint the God of the bible, and Jesus Christ, to be evil?



trying to paint the God of the bible, and Jesus Christ, to be evil?

(((  i really wondering pete,isn't this what do you trying to do with Islam !! ?? )))

why is it permissible to you and forbidden to me?!!! by which logic you are thinking?

I forbid you nothing believer33. You are perfectly at liberty to continue to paint Jesus as evil.
Where did I forbid you? Jesus Christ will be your judge. I'm trying to save you.

Muslims overturned thousands of cars because an artist drew a cartoon of Mohammed. If an artist draws a cartoon of Jesus Christ, all a Christian should do is feel sorry for that person, and pray to God that that person will repent before it's too late for them, and they are lost forever.

I paint Islam as evil because the Word of God clearly shows that it is. Islam IS THE OPPOSITE of God's Word and God's people. That's why Islam is an imperialistic blood thirsty cult, ever since Mohammed plundered his first caravan.
ONE MUST CHOOSE.
You paint Jesus Christ and the God of the bible as evil.
But you can't pretend to love Jesus when His Word clearly shows that you can't love Him:
1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

I hate Islam because I love you, believer33.

anyway ,no my friend that's not true ,but all what i try to proof too you that if i really misunderstand the bible and Christianity ,mostly you are too misunderstand Islam and Quran (that's a good result 1 + 1 =2)that's right?   

I don't misunderstand Islam. It is the OPPOSITE of Christianity.
Mark 12:29  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:  30  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.  31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.  32  And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Compare:
Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
Hadith: Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh servant of Allah, oh Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!

That's what made the Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem the perfect compliment to Hitler. Watch the related videos here:
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=113.0

My friend, it is you that doesn't understand Islam, but I understand the reasons that you can't see.
That doesn't mean you are not guilty. You can see how Islam caused you to treat Jesus in this very thread.

[Pete]

about the second link .

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=55.0

I DON'T AGREE WITH HOW TELL THAT  God had carnal sexual relations with Mary.(peace be upon here)

You misunderstand. Christians don't believe that God had sexual relations with Mary.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=110.0

It this is just theory to show  and proof to you that is your faith is not logically, but all Muslims know that Mary become pregnant by the Holy Spirit (Gabriel)

Do you see what you are calling "logical"?
That Muslims "know" that Mary became pregnant by the Holy Spirit is "logical'"?

Mat 1:20  But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

You can see it's not about logic, believer. It's about faith.

[believergod33]

believe me believe i swear that i love you and respect you too,for this reason i try to save your soul from the hell,so you didn't answering me why you didn't call Adam and Eve a son of god too or god?!!!!and about  Luke, Matthew , mark and john RE THEY be a contemporary of Jesus  to be witness in his rising or crucifixion? or his saying that he is a son of god?this idea that Jesus  is son of god come from a legends of Greek  which was ruling in this period see the what the legends of DIONYSUS say about him,and what the similarity between him and Jesus  .


DIONYSUS was known as a son of Zeus = Jesus  son of god
Dionysus sometimes has the epithet  ,
1 -Acratophorus by which he was designated as the giver of unmixed wine,
Jesus is in some way a manifestation of Dionysus, but the parallels are complex and deep.

2 -"goat killer", was the name under which he was worshiped at Potniae in Boeotia .
(((Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God)))

3 -  As Aesymnetes ("ruler" or "lord") he was worshipped at Aro' and Patrae in Achaea.the same names with Jesus  .


1. Both were the sons of father Gods:
Dionysus-Zeus
Jesus-Yahweh (God)

2. Both were born to mortal mothers:
Dionysus-Semele
Jesus-Mary

3. Both faced persecution from secular authorities:
Dionysus-Pentheus
Jesus-Pontius Pilate

4. Both had similar messages/philosophies:
Dionysus-a lover of peace, upheld the poor, and challenged the prevailing social hierarchy
Jesus-message was to love one another, upheld the poor, and directly challenged the prevailing social heirarchy

5. Both were healers, miracle workers, and associated with eternal salvation

the god Dionysos in a ritual enactment of his myth of life, death and rebirth,like Jesus  

Like Jesus, Dionysus is a God in human form, who dies and is resurrected, born of a mortal mother by a divine father.


"There are paintings here [in the temple of Dionysos at Athens] -- Dionysus bringing Hephaistos up to heaven." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 1.20.2-3


Dionysos  was have dual nature divin and  humanity like Jesus  .



"Mortals who were made immortal ... Liber [Dionysos], son of Jove [Zeus] and Semele." - Hyginus, Fabulae 224

= son of god Mary Jesus  

and there was  The myth of Osiris (son of god)too,the similar story with
Jesus   and  Dionysos   too.

all of this legends was ruling in this period because the backwardness scientific and civilized ,but now we are live in new generation,still believe these legends ?
Can anyone journey to the world of the dead and come back?"
there is.

  
    Surah 112 (AL-IKHLAS) Verse 1
Say: He is God, the One and Only;God, the Eternal, Absolute;He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;And there is none like unto Him.
-------------------------
finally dear friend, you must thinking and thinking,iwill not tell you anything other than,
i will ask god to save you and light your heart and your way to the right way, to Islam.
god with you my friend.

[believergod33]

You bring  me these Sura 8:12 and ignore all the verses in the Old Testament which god ask people it to do the  horrible crime ,why you always look to others and don't look to yourselves??(these Sura in fight case) like what you say about the Old Testament, the prophets laid down swords, or suggestion of the use of the sword in God's service,Islam too the same thing
and why you ignore what god say too???

 Surah 2 (AL-BAQARA) Verse 190
Fight in the cause of God those (((who fight you))), but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.


   
    Surah 9 (AL-BARA'AH) Verse 36
 
The number of months in the sight of God is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together(((( as they fight you all ))))together. But know that God is with those who restrain themselves.

 (((( muslims don't start to fight anyone without they fight them )))


 Surah 60 (AL-MUMTAHINA) Verse 8

God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.


you are really ignore every thing good in Islam,oh dear you are in deep dark -and you don't never understanding anything about islam and Muslims ,not me!!!!!!

Ask God  for you  to save you from the evil of yourself.

[Pete]

believe me believe i swear that i love you and respect you too,for this reason i try to save your soul from the hell,so you didn't answering me why you didn't call Adam and Eve a son of god too or god?!!!!

Adam was created from the dust of the earth. His body returned there too. What's to explain?

I am also A son of God. So were the Apostles and Christian men today:
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

But there is ONLY ONE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
You are the one that is being illogical.
YOU BELIEVE that NO MAN IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD WAS CONCEIVED THE WAY THAT JESUS WAS. By God's will. Yet you try to turn Him into just another prophet, because Mohammedanism makes you.

...and about  Luke, Matthew , mark and john RE THEY be a contemporary of Jesus  to be witness in his rising or crucifixion? or his saying that he is a son of god?[/color]

I showed you that the concept comes from God's Word. Christians are sons of God. But Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, they were all eye witnesses, as they reported. They wrote their books, letters and epistles in their lifetimes. Unlike Mohammed, they were literate.

You have to believe that they didn't exist, because otherwise you know that Mohammed was nothing more than a false prophet. That's because he was. Why on earth would you read a bible? You have to deny the entirety of the New Testament, and use the Old Testament for nothing more than trying to demonize God.

This is because you worship in the stand-alone, 7th century religion of Mohammedanism, that was conceived by a single false prophet that made the scene 5 centuries after the bible was closed.
I worship in the stand-alone religion of Christianity, that stands on the Old and New Testaments of God's Word and know that they are the inerrant Word of God. Sadly you are stuck calling God's book a lie, purely because of THE false prophet.

The Quran wasn't written until hundreds of years after Mohammed's death. It remains a big mess unto today. That's why it needs a rule of abrogation. http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=116.0
It was also collected up, and various copies burned, on two separate occassions: http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=96.0

[/b]this idea that Jesus  is son of god come from a legends of Greek

No, it comes from the Word of God: http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.msg148#msg148

which was ruling in this period see the what the legends of DIONYSUS say about him,and what the similarity between him and Jesus  .

Earlier you used atheists like Shaw and Marx to demonstrate the perfection of the Quran, and now you turn to paganism to defame God's Word.

At least by now YOU CAN SUFFER NO DELUSION. YOU WORSHIP IN THE STAND-ALONE 7TH CENTURY RELIGION OF MOHAMMEDANISM.

I do so pity you:

Hebrews 10:29 Of HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, WHO HATH TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, and HATH COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, wherewith he was sanctified, AN UNHOLY THING, and hath DONE DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

[Pete]

You bring  me these Sura 8:12 and ignore all the verses in the Old Testament which god ask people it to do the  horrible crime ,why you always look to others and don't look to yourselves??

Mohammedans are stuck trying to justify the reprobate behavior of their 7th century false prophet, by going back 1200 years in the history of mankind to find anything even close. But NONE of the accounts of those Old Testament folks, even the most evil, can match the reprobate behavior of Mohammed, as bequeathed to us through the Islamic hadith and the Quran themselves. http://www.youtube.com/user/AhmadsQuran3

I DON'T IGNORE THE OLD TESTAMENT. But I recognize that the 1600 year record of how God chose to manifest Himself to mankind begins at mankind's very beginnings and steadily unfolds. I can't say why He chose to reveal Himself the way that He did, only THAT HE DID. As discussed earlier, 1200 years before Mohammed was born Old Testament prophets laid down their swords or suggestion of use of swords in God's service. Then Jesus was made manifest, and the world was given a new covenant in the New Testament through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. He is the fulfillment of the Old Testament and old covenant.

You choose to follow the 23 year record of a single individual that preached and behaved in the exact opposite of what God revealed to us through His Word.

[believergod33]

AND YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE WORSHIP GOD:THE FATHER AND HIS SON JESUS,BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU WHERE THE POSITION OF THIS FATHER IN YOUR FAITH?ALL THE CHRISTIANS WORSHIP JESUS AND FORGET THIS alleged FATHER!!!! YOU ARE FORGET THE CREATOR BY THE SOMEONE HOW CREATE HIM !!!

and you didn't answer me about(where the JESUS say in bible i am a god and WORSHIP  me?)please answer.

AND YOU DIDN'T ANSWER ME TOO WHY YOU DIDN'T  SAY THAT EVE WAS A GOD TOO?
AND YOU TELL ME ADAM CREATED FROM DUST IT'S OK BUT HOW DO YOU DON'T KNOW
THAT JESUS WAS CREATED BY THE SAME WAY???
THE BIBLE DON'T SAY ABOUT THE WAY who GOD CREATE JESUS BY IT !!!

Lu 1:30  And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Lu 1:34  Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Lu 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

NOTE (((( YOU TOLD ME THAT ALL OF YOU SON OF GOD))))THIS IS NOT EVIDENCE.

Lu 1:38  And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT GOD DIDN'T CREATE JESUS  by throw DUST  OR WATER OR AIR OR ANYTHING ELSE  IN MARY WOMB ?? OR MAYBE FROM THE RIB OF MARY LIKE EVE HOW DO YOU KNOW?  DO YOU KNOW ALL THE  omnipotence OF GOD? DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE?

without SAY GOD SAY THAT BECAUSE YOU TOLD ME THAT ALL OF YOU SON OF GOD.

you say that you and all Christian is son of god ,But there is ONLY ONE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD

what is the BEGOTTEN ? BEGOTTEN is case which  bring the SONS to life.

ok ,let us see what the meaning of BEGOTTEN word  will lead us, when everyone born from man he call the son of THIS man ,

what the meaning of BEGOTTEN  ? it's meaning he got this son,so the word son and BEGOTTEN is description for case which THE  son

come to life through it ,so the meaning of son of man= man BEGOTTEN these son,

if you  all ARE THE sons of god = god WHO IS BEGOTTEN you all.

if Jesus WHO WAS BEGOTTEN BY GOD = THAT'S also he is his son too

THE SON BEGOTTEN BY HIS FATHER.

THE FATHER BEGOTTEN HIS SON.

THEY ARE IN THE SAME MEANING

thence ,you and Jesus  come from the same father, now WE must have TWO results , all of you is gods , or Jesus was a human like you!!!

SORRY FRIEND ,THERE IS NOT ANY MEANING OF WHAT YOU SAY ,YOU JUST REPEATING WHAT YOU LEARN IN YOUR churches ,BUT I AM SURE TAT YOU ARE NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU SAY,DO YOU KNOW WHY MOST Christian CONVERT TI ISLAM? THAT IS BECAUSE THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND the faith of Trinity   ,  belive me peter i have many CHRISTIANS  friends and they all don't  understand this faith  too,and they thinking to convert to islam but they still  hesitate just for  habituation to be  CHRISTIANS  .

HOW GOD BE  1  + 1  + 1=1 ?
All we know that  1 +1+ 1=3

and Jesus  is son of god and he  is ONLY ONE he BEGOTTEN him !!!!
and you all the sons of god but he didn't BEGOTTEN you !!!

the CHRISTIANITY is the faith which contradict itself.

AND WHEN THEY ASK THE priest TO UNDERSTAND THEN HE TELL TO HIM THIS IS THE BIG SECRET OF GOD AND YOU MUST BELIEVE TIES, JUST BELIEVE  !!!! THE MOST OF Christian IS keeping THE INFORMATION LIKE WHAT HE receive IT BUT THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT,AND WHEN THEY TRY TO EXPLAIN THEM FAITH,THEY TELL I BELIEVE TIES BECAUSE GOD SAY TIES,OR BRING SOME OF TEXT FROM BIBLE ,  BUT THEY DON'T TRY TO THINKING BY OPEN MINDED ,the relation between god and people must more simple from that.

(QURAN NEVER CHANGED FROM PERIOD OF MOHAMED TELL NOW)

ABOUT (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). in Quran
it was just A LICENSE FROM ALLAH to Mohamed , AND THIS HAPPENED during HIS LIFE. During HE compilation THE Quran.

and all the verses what you see it in the article all verses that were abrogated by the the other verse from allah too ,that's during Mohamed's life and compilation THE Quran.


Surah 2: 106
"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"



Surah 16 (AL-NAHL) Verse 101
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and God knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

 and all the  verses that were abrogated by another verses like what god say,and god is free with his words ,Mohamed just was a messenger of him,and this abrogated for the some verses that is another proof to you  about what i was say to you before,about what the way of god take with people to change his life and habits,he want to make this change come steep by steep throw the change verses,until Mohamed compilation THE Quran


and after the revelation and the Quran complete Mohamed say.
and it never happened any Abrogator for any verses  after that.

 Surah 5 (AL-MAEDA) Verse 3
Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than God; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me.)(((( This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you,)))) and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, God is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


BUT IN THE OTHER side,

 YOUR GOD cautious YOU IN THE BIBLE TO CHANGE OR DELETE ANY WORD FROM THE BIBLE  ((no wise pass from the law))
AND THIS IS NOT HAPPENED  during the life of JESUS TO APPROVE IT LIKE WHAT MOHAMED DID BY PERMISSION FROM OUR GOD.
Mt 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

MAT 24:35
35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

ISA:40 :8
8  The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

SO YOUR GOD emphasize TO NOT DELETE ANY WORD FROM HIS BOOK ,BUT OUR GOD ALLOW TO MOHAMED TO DO THAT during HIS life, DURING recording THE QURAN THERE IS NO ANY SIMILARITY BETWEEN TIES CASE.

you  don't have any capable to understand me,i am sorry for you.
GOD SAVE YOU MY FRIEND.