Author Topic: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics  (Read 12559 times)

resistingrexmundi

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The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« on: April 07, 2010, 11:00:09 AM »
Below is a list of quotes from some of the most influential men in the  formation of the United States of America. The reason for this list is  to point out the large oversight on the part of many Americans when  they buy into the idea that the country's founders established a  "seperation of Church and State". If that had indeed been their  intention it stood in stark contrast to their beliefs on government and  specifically how the U.S.A. should be ran. Whether citizens of the US  are willing to admit it or not they owe a debt of gratitude to  Christianity for the freedoms they so often claim to be defending when  they bash Christianity.

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April  18, 1775]

John Adams:
" The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved  independence were the general principals of Christianity I will avow  that I believed and now believe that those general principles of  Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and  attributes of God."

"[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by  solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty."
John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration  was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with  human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition,  revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our  Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was  made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to  the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my  straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is  that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more  philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813  letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be  mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas  Jefferson, April 19, 1817]

Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams
"He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness  obvious to all"Our forefathers opened the Bible to all." [  "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State  House in Philadelphia]

" Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their  endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the  importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in  the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and leading them in  the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system."  [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:
 "Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world,  your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the  Fourth of July]?" "Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the  birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the  Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel  dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first  organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's  mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human  government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at  Newburyport, Massachusetts.

"The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and  municipal as well as a moral and religious code."
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
" Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . .  and judge of the tree by its fruits."

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait  of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they  therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so  sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the  best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To  James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
" God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot  fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire  can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings  that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.  I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring  aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the  builders of Babel" "Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original  manuscript of this speech

"In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were  sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine  protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously  answered do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?" [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in  Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the  Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was  dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ,  the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
"The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The  support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United  States."

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, "I have a tender  reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord  Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me."

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system  which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and  agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the  Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and  if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would  unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as  clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:
 "In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and  Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be  taken to ward off the impending judgments, at the same time all  confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on  that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole  blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness Resolved; Thursday the 11th of May to humble themselves before God under the  heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved  them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a  spirit of repentance and reformation and a Blessing on the Union of  the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we  desire to thank Almighty God]That the people of Great Britain and  their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that  shall make for the peace of the nation for the redress of America's  many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and  their security to the latest generations.

"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from  labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"
Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."

" This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion  of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed."
"The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

"It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation  was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion,  but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of  other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of  worship here." [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."
John Jay:

" Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers,  and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our  Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."  Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John  Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV,  p. 393.

"Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is  a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have  generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to  me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to  Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the  Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson." [The  Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P.  Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
" The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of  man."

"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come  under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus."

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of  Jesus."

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a  nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a  conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift  from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?  Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and  that His justice cannot sleep forever." (excerpts are inscribed on the  walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source:  Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary  Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From  Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
Samuel Johnston:

 "It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may  be elected to high offices under the government of the United States.  Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of  the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President  or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside  the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this  unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as  they do themselves.
[Elliot's Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July  30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
" We've staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten  Commandments with all of our heart."

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon  the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all  our political institutions upon our capacity to sustain ourselves  according to the Ten Commandments of God." [1778 to the General  Assembly of the State of Virginia]

"I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in  favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most  rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and  gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth,  publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by  becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may  give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)

" An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia" Approved  February 2, 1813 by Congress

"It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love,  and charity toward each other."

"A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building  ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names  enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."
[Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his  own salvation] November 9, 1772]

James McHenry - Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the  Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose,  the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and  image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their  truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts  of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and  usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw  entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments.  Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same  time enjoy quiet conscience.
Jedediah Morse:

"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil  freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. .  . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our  present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow  from them, must fall with them."

The following is especially relevant for the removing of religious  activities in schools

Thomas Paine:
" It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all  the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as  accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or  with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the  principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent,  or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look  through the discovery to the Author."

" The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in  teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of  generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking  through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short,  and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his  existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing  they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest  by saying, that matter is eternal." "The Existence of God--1810"

Benjamin Rush:
"I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes  and take so little pains to prevent them-we neglect the only means of  establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that  is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of  Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all  others, constitutes the soul of republicanism." "By withholding the  knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of  the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds." [Letter  written (1790's) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]

 "Christianity is the only true and perfect religion."
"If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission  of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary."

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read  and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the  principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most  essential part of education"

Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for  Free Schools", March 28, 1787

Justice Joseph Story:
" I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil  society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is  that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been  a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as  lying its foundations."
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

" Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as  unworthy of credit." [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851,  pp. 8-9.]

" At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the  amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment],  the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that  Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as  was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the  freedom of religious worship."
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:
" The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten  Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties  which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our  fellow men."

"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one  of the first things in which all children, under a free government  ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than  that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government  intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English  Language]

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose  for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21].  . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men  in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our  government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be  because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to  make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the  United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

"All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime,  ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their  despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible." [Noah  Webster. History. p. 339]

"The Bible was America's basic textbook
in all fields."
[Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

"Education is useless without the Bible" [Noah Webster. Our Christian  Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:
Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your  national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more  than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight  shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later:  "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national  morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."

" It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and  Bible."

"What students would learn in American schools above all is the  religion of Jesus Christ." [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May  12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our  highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian"  [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of  official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public  life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country;  yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of  the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation  which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM,  therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to  merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 05:19:21 AM by Peter »
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 11:53:34 AM »
Great topic!

resistingrexmundi

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2010, 07:57:40 AM »
Thank you and I welcome any and all to continue to add to this list of quotes. It would help present a most devestating case against the "BIG LIE".
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2010, 05:18:44 PM »
Let me start by saying that anyone who trusts faith more than reason or logic, in my opinion has closed his mind to new knowledge.  I belive when that happens we begin to die.  Merriam-Webster defines faith as believing in something for which there is no proof.  Reason is defined as the power of comprehending, infering, or thinking in orderly rational ways.  I beleive that in the earliest cognitave thoughts of man, he realized in order to have a civil society there needed to be a mechanism for a common moral authority i.e. religion in ANY culture.   Furthermore, I believe that religion of any sort, was concieved by man in order to cope with mortality.  We are told by our religious leaders, the bible (and all of it's variations), the torah and the koran that if we, the belivers, submit to the authoritarian rule of our religion then we will go to a better place when we die.  If that is the case, why don't we all kill ourselves?  I am not advocating sucide, nor harm to ANYONE. That was simply meant to be a thought provoking statement.
The authors of religion had already thought this logic through and put a cleaver little clause in there.
We must all use the strength of our minds to decide what words are gods, and what words are the fabrications of man.
 

Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2010, 05:29:53 PM »
(disappeared then restored from database)

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one; of the first things in which all children, under a free government; ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than; that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government; intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English; Language]

This man contradicts himself in the same sententce.; How could it be a "free"; government if everyone is required to submit to one religion?
   
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 09:34:34 AM by Peter »

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2010, 05:33:54 PM »
This man contradicts himself in the same sententce.  How could it be a "free" government if everyone is required to submit to one religion?

Hi Nick, and welcome to the forum! :)
Where did he indicate that everyone should be "required to submit to one religion"?

Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2010, 06:02:38 PM »
I am snowbaordguru on youtube btw,
By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion.  Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, and your freedom from religious oppression?  That is not a "free" government, if you do not have the right to religion of your choice; what ever it may be.
This guy sounds like a dictator, would the national religion be christianity?  Would I be killed or jailed under this man ideology if I did not worship the christian god?

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2010, 06:45:01 PM »
I am snowbaordguru on youtube btw,
By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion.

Do you understand what the purpose of his preface was? To make sure you knew that he was expressing his personal opinion.

Do you know anything about Christianity?
Have you ever read the Gospel?

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2010, 06:46:33 PM »
Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, and your freedom from religious oppression?  That is not a "free" government, if you do not have the right to religion of your choice; what ever it may be.  That is not a "free" government, if you do not have the right to religion of your choice; what ever it may be.
This guy sounds like a dictator, would the national religion be christianity?  Would I be killed or jailed under this man ideology if I did not worship the christian god?

You are doing nothing more than embellishing on your prior false premise, as though I never wrote a reply.
Why don't you go back, and quote my first reply to you, and provide an answer to my question? Then we can go on from there.
The only requirement we impose on our members is to engage in DIAlog. In and exchange.

Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2010, 07:16:37 PM »
this was my answer for your first question.

"By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion.  Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, and your freedom from religious oppression?  That is not a "free" government, if you do not have the right to religion of your choice; what ever it may be.
This guy sounds like a dictator, would the national religion be christianity?  Would I be killed or jailed under this man ideology if I did not worship the christian god?"

Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2010, 07:34:29 PM »
your questions: Do you know anything about Christianity?
Have you ever read the Gospel?

I know as much about christianity and the gospel as a childhood of church and sunday school every sunday could teach me, in a diciples of christ church.  Why do you ask?

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2010, 07:42:13 PM »
this was my answer for your first question.

"By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion.  Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, .......

It is guaranteed under our constitution.

........ and your freedom from religious oppression?

The very thing our forefathers fled, and were determined to make sure did not happen again, by prohibiting the federal government from establishing a state church - like the Church of England that they fled.

That is not a "free" government, if you do not have the right to religion of your choice; what ever it may be.

Free exercise of religion is guaranteed under the first amendment of our constitution, however, over the last half century, it has been increasingly under attack by our corrupt Federal courts.

This guy sounds like a dictator, would the national religion be christianity?

Ignorance to our founding is the only way you could have asked that question.

 
Would I be killed or jailed under this man ideology if I did not worship the christian god?"

Now you are a false accuser. He no more said that the people should worship the "christian god" as you put it, than he did that Christianity should be our national religion.

So what did he write?

"No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government ......"

"..... the basis of any government....."

The basis of any government that was intended to do what?

"..... intended to secure the rights and privileges .........."

Where do our rights come from?

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2010, 07:45:21 PM »
your questions: Do you know anything about Christianity?
Have you ever read the Gospel?

I know as much about christianity and the gospel as a childhood of church and sunday school every sunday could teach me, in a diciples of christ church.  Why do you ask?

Well because if you didn't even know what the guy is talking about, it would be a little peculiar that you would be so opinionated.

What is the most important thing that the Gospel teaches?

Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2010, 07:53:24 PM »
"Where do our rights come from?"
Man has no rights untill law establishes them.

"So can you summarize Christianity? What is the most important thing that the Gospel teaches?"

There are two differnet answers here; the summary of christianity is the golden rule(do unto others), the most important lesson that the gospel teaches is...the golden rule.  Fundamentalist would say that the most important thing would be the spread of christianity.

Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2010, 07:57:21 PM »
"No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government ......"


"..... the basis of any government....."

Can you tell me the difference between a Christian government and a government based on Christianity?

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2010, 07:59:16 PM »
"Where do our rights come from?"
Man has no rights untill law establishes them.

Certainly the source as understood by brutal secular authoritarian dictatorships. But we saw how well that worked out for the Soviet Union didn't we?

Certainly our forefathers were of a very different view as to the source of our rights.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1241.0


Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2010, 08:03:08 PM »
"So can you summarize Christianity? What is the most important thing that the Gospel teaches?"

There are two differnet answers here; the summary of christianity is the golden rule(do unto others), the most important lesson that the gospel teaches is...the golden rule.  Fundamentalist would say that the most important thing would be the spread of christianity.

Lies seem to flow effortlessly from your lips.
The fact is that scripture is more important to fundamentalists than any other Christian group. Without fundamentalists protecting scripture over the last 3500 years it would be unrecognizable today.
Here is what fundamentalists understand from scripture.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2010, 08:07:07 PM »
"No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government ......"

"..... the basis of any government....."

Can you tell me the difference between a Christian government and a government based on Christianity?

A government based on Christian principles begins, as ours did, by understanding that all of our rights come from God. Our forefathers realized that the most important function of our Federal Government was to create a body of law that prevented it from infringing, on those God-given rights.

Now folks in lots of religions believe they worship God. It just so happened that the majority of our forefathers received their understanding from scripture. Even though several were deists, even they also understood the benefit of preserving rights given to us by God in accordance with Christian principles taught through the Gospel, and ruled by men that believed they would be judged and held accountable for eternity, by the very same God that gave us our rights.

I have to join my wife, but will be happy to begin again in the morning. May God bless you.

Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2010, 08:51:48 PM »


"By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion.  Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, .......

your answer was: "It is guaranteed under our constitution."

Exactly my point, ironicly enough; thank god Noah Webster did not write our constiution

Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2010, 09:06:08 PM »
To further my last point, weren't our "rights" given to us by the "bill of rights?", not the constitution?

Can god enslave man?  Physically enslave man?   The answer is "no", I assume, since god is not a physical being, able to directly affect the actions or state of a human being.  By the laws of physics, god would not be able to grant us any rights, because he can not take them away.  If he cannot take away our rights, certainly he could not give them to you in the first place. 

Laws governing man are what give humanity it's rights.  Man can enslave man, thus taking his rights from him. Because man can take away mans rights, doesn't that mean human rights come from humans?

If russia for exaple invaded the U.S. and made all of it's people slaves, would god grant the people of the U.S. freedom?  Or would it take the actions of man to liberate the enslaved?

Nick

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2010, 09:08:48 PM »
To Peter-
Thanks for putting up so far with my opinions.  I hope they are not offencive, that is not the intention of my opinions.  I will have class tomorrow untill a little after noon, i'll be back then to get some more action!  ;D

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2010, 07:25:31 AM »
"By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion.  Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, .......

Context please. The most important as "the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."

Godless men do Godless things to other men. History is full of examples.
Whereas the God faring men that established our country wanted to establish our Republic in a manner consistent with what God would want, as they understood, through scripture.
Some today might hold that it would have been better to have chosen guidance from the god of Mohammed instead of the God of the Gospel.

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Doesn't strike me as the kind of god whose laws would provide a sound "basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people." How about to you?
This is what Webster meant when he emphasized a basis in Christian principles as being important to securing those rights.

Mark 12:29  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.  31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Do Christians love our neighbors by imposing a religion on them and forcing them to comply? Of course not.
Is that how Christians are instructed that others will receive Jesus Christ?

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7    Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

All we can do is lead the horse to water. To show them the love of God through Jesus Christ.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=55.0
Which do you believe to be the "more important" between these two faiths as "the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."
Does that strike you as the kind of faith about which you need ask "Would I be killed or jailed under this man ideology if I did not worship the christian god?"

All you have really expressed here is your ignorance regarding Christianity, which really renders this discussion pointless.

your answer was: "It is guaranteed under our constitution."

Exactly my point, ironicly enough; thank god Noah Webster did not write our constiution


Now you are simply allowing your ego to take over rather than understand how your initial impression could have been wrong. You made no case in your false accusations against Webster as your absurd notion that his goal was to require men "to submit to one religion?"
or your ridiculous suggestion that "This guy sounds like a dictator, would the national religion be christianity?  Would I be killed or jailed under this man ideology if I did not worship the christian god?"

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2010, 07:30:32 AM »


"By saying the christian religion is the most imortant religion. it may be the most imortanat religion to christians, but not so much to any person of another religion.  Where is the freedom to chose your own religion, .......

your answer was: "It is guaranteed under our constitution."

Exactly my point, ironicly enough; thank god Noah Webster did not write our constiution

There was nothing in the quote from Webster that was inconsistent with our founding principles.

Maybe this will help. Would you rather your government be established by men that believed that they would stand in judgment before the very same God that they believe gave humankind our rights, and would be held accountable for eternity based on their stewardship of those rights......
or would you rather your government was established by men who believed that they themselves - and those to whom they assigned rights to participate - were the only judges of their decisions, while at the same time they believed that the consequences of their actions did not extend beyond their days on this earth?

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2010, 08:12:42 AM »
To further my last point, weren't our "rights" given to us by the "bill of rights?", not the constitution?

The Bill of Rights is composed of amendments to our Constitution.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1479.0

Can god enslave man?

Men almost invariably enslave men when they are Godless. It has been steadily on the increase over the last hundred years in the U.S. as well, in the form of our income tax, for example.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe that they are free" - Johann W. Goethe  

Physically enslave man?   The answer is "no", I assume, since god is not a physical being, able to directly affect the actions or state of a human being. By the laws of physics, god would not be able to grant us any rights, because he can not take them away.  If he cannot take away our rights, certainly he could not give them to you in the first place.  

God faring men understand the rights God gave us through the filter of scripture.

Imagine a world where all humanity observed two simple principles for example.
1. You do what you say you are going to do
2. You don't do anything that infringes on anybody else's rights.

Those principles aren't expressly spelled out in the Gospel as laws to run governments by. The question is as to whether they are consistent with it. Nobody has to be a Christian, Jew or Hindu to understand the value to a society in which everyone observed those two simple principles.

Peter

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Re: The Founding Fathers' View on Religion in Politics
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2010, 08:34:22 AM »


Laws governing man are what give humanity it's rights.

Laws governing man are what give Russians, Vietnamese and Cubans their rights - not U.S. citizens, though our government increasingly ignores that.
Our laws are intended to protect us from having our God-given rights infringed upon.
If you would like to live in a secular state I would encourage you to move to China, Russia, Vietnam, Cuba, Cambodia (or whatever it is called now) and many more like Iraq was formerly.
All well recognized bastions of protection of human rights, aren't they?

 Man can enslave man, thus taking his rights from him.

That's exactly what secular states do. Take away mankind's God-given rights.

Because man can take away mans rights, doesn't that mean human rights come from humans?

If russia for exaple invaded the U.S. and made all of it's people slaves, would god grant the people of the U.S. freedom?  Or would it take the actions of man to liberate the enslaved?

That is what our forefathers included the second amendment to mitigate. Men taking away our God-given rights.