(put 7 in place of 3 and did a little editing on 11-1-12)
Chats with Muslims tend to follow a predictable pattern.
1. In their surprise at learning that Mecca has no history
prior to the Christian era Muslim forum members then copy and paste a blizzard quotes from the Quran and Hadith, believing they were inspired
in spite of their glaring historical blunders
and false genealogies, and as if they have any standing against the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind as revealed through ALL of His prophets and witnesses. Most not even realizing that they believe the EXACT OPPOSITE when it comes to the primary subject of the Gospel, and whole purpose of the prophesied new covenant
the Messiah brought, detailed therein.
2. When we point out how their own prophet
is revealed through their own books as a mass murdering, female prisoner abusing thief, likely many are so horrified
that they have little choice but to say that the hundreds of verses that expose Muhammad from the Hadith aren't genuine, or that the plainly stated Quran verse is misunderstood, or even mistranslated, even though it says the same thing in all of the popular English translations. They react by accusing that we are "insulting my prophet
" when it is their own books that insult their prophet, and our duty as Christians to simply point it out to them.
3. Realizing they are unable to defend Muhammad's sinful behavior they turn to pure unadulterated blasphemy against Yahweh and His Word, in efforts to drag the God of the bible and our sinless Messiah down to the level of Muhammad's reprobate behavior. They proof-text scriptures from the Old Testament, from when we were little more than desert dwelling nomads, without ever having Googled the subjects or spent a single moment in actually trying to understand what those passages are all about. Being the children of the flesh, they don't realize that when Yahweh ordered the killing of an entire people - who were even guilty of sacrificing children to idols - to keep them from poisoning His people, the innocent among those that were slain are at peace and with the Lord today. This is because they can only see the things of this world. Things of the flesh. That's why Islam has had a 1400 year goal of conquest, and subjugation of all the people of the world, to Muhammad's followers. To force the whole world into denying the Son of God and His shed blood. Being of the flesh is also why the "paradise" of Muhammad's imagination is described as a gold an jewel encrusted, chicken and wine serving, bordello. Yet they mindlessly carry on blaspheming the one true God Yahweh, without even being embarrassed about the fact that they are lodging their blasphemy against the very book, and religions, that they desperately wish Muhammad's cult was associated with!
4. After learning that...
a) the "history" of Mecca is unhistorical 7th - 10th century fiction, created by a bunch of semi-literate SW Arabian desert dwellers
b) Muhammad adopted, and then adapted, the rituals of the Quraish pagan moon, sun, star and jinn worshipers in Mecca before him (as confirmed by the Hadith
c) the Sabians prayed five times a day, performed ablution, prostrated in prayer, fasted for 30 days during the same month of Ramadan, and wore long white robes
d) The Zoroastrians mythical prophet rode on a mythical flying animal, or baraq, to the land of his immortal ancesters
e) and that Mohammed is the best fit for THE false prophet
of the book of Revelation, because he WAS the exact opposite
of the sinless Messiah Jesus Christ, and taught the exact opposite
of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel
They then attempt to attack the heavily studied and well educated critics that we cite.
5. After learning that those - even Arabic first language - scholars bibliographies are heavily laden with material from Islamic and Arabian authors
, they then turn to making empty and false accusations against the forum members, that brought them the bad news.
6. After having it pointed out repeatedly that making empty accusations against forum members won't magically create a history of Mecca prior to the 4th century AD, or make Muhammadanism other than the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, in desperation they then seek out and copy and paste another blizzard of blasphemy indiscriminately from atheists, agnostics
, Jews that haven't yet recognized Jesus is their Messiah, and Greek sophist styled Muslim liars like Deedat
7. They contend against the Apostles just as Simon Magus did, but then learn that all of their accusations against the Gospel, and so-called contradictions
, are nothing more than a bunch of poppycock invented by their Greek sophist styled liars like Deedat and Naik, as well as atheists and agnostics. They quickly realize that they can't accuse the Gospel without being confronted with solid answers, and that it's impossible to accuse the sinless Messiah
, even as they are left flat-footed and completely unable to deny the accusations, that their own books successfully lodge against Muhammad's sinful behavior.
The above in a little more depth follows:
They blaspheme the one true God Yahweh, without even realizing that if Yahweh couldn't preserve His 1600 year record, that His people have followed through 2 covenants for 3500 years, then He would not be a God worth worship. This even as Muhammad made such a mess of his brief 23 year record, that he had to declare a doctrine of abrogation
to sort out the mess. Even worse is exploration of the actual historical record on the sources of "inspiration"
Ironically, by blaspheming the Gospel as false, they declare their own prophet to be foolish. By the 7th century the Gospel had been translated into every known language, copied many tens of thousands of times, and had been read all over the known world for centuries.
In that same 7th century Muhammad quipped:
Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
So was Muhammad a liar, or just foolish and more ignorant than today's Muhammadans, for having said that?http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1704.0
Yet no matter how far down Satan's path they go, blasphemy against Yahweh and His scriptures will never magically create thousands of years of history of Mecca prior to the Christian era, make Mohammed any more moral
or any less of a false prophet
, or move Mecca one inch closer than 1200 kilometers away from Jerusalem where THE prophets and patriarchs lived. It's impossible for them to understand the Scriptures when they put their effort into MIS
understanding and blaspheming YHWH's record
, while the scriptures themselves
further explain why they cannot understand.
As chats evolve and the overwhelming evidence against Mohammed's 7th century religion piles up, whether through scripture
, history, archaeology, or geography
, Mohammed's followers will turn to attacking the messengers. They demonize heavily studied authors that have the broadest access to information of any authors in the history of the world, as well as easy access to foreign countries, by characterizing their work as relying on "pagan" European resources (when referring to the world's actual historical record). Yet at the same time they lionize semi-literate 7th and 8th century AD southwest Arabian desert dwellers who created thousands of years of fictional Islamic "tradition" from thin air, that masquerades as history. Amusingly and hypocritically, the very same folks often cite a single reference
, from 18th century English author
Edward Gibbon's obvious misunderstanding of earlier historians and geographers, as if this sole piece of "evidence" could substitute for thousands of years of history and archaeology of Mecca prior to the Christian era. Tragically, the Islamic "history" of Mecca prior the the Christian era can only label as "tradition" by Mohammed's followers themselves, since it was all created in the 7th and 8th centuries AD without reference
to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 4th century AD. In other words it is utterly unhistorical.http://www.historyofmecca.com/
The history of Islam and Arabia detailed by authors like Dr. Rafat Amari - whose first language is Arabic - is overwhelmingly collected through historical and archaeological resources in and of Arabia
. Indeed the archaeological evidence
, of course, can hardly be from other than from Arabia. This is evidenced by Amari's heavy reliance on Islam's Hadith, as well as other Arabian and Muslim authors, and Arabia's archaeology. The historical and archaeological evidence
within Arabia is some of the best preserved on earth because of the low rainfall, and it well attests to ancient Arabian towns, and even to small settlements prior to the Christian era that came and went within a couple hundred years. But Mecca is absent from those Arabian records prior to about the 4th century AD. This even though it was eventually settled on one of the most historically and archaeologically attested ancient trade routes in Arabia. And while the U.N. recognizes other ancient towns
in Saudi Arabia, Mecca is off their radar screen, because there is no evidence that it is an ancient town. While I agree with their characterization that Amari's writing includes "pagan" sources, I agree because many of the bibliographies overwhelmingly cite Arabian authors and the Hadith, as well as actual
Arabian archaeological and historical records, such as those cited in these bibliography examples.http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1784.msg7347#msg7347http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1267.msg4917#msg4917http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1133.0
They demonize authors like Dr. Rafat Amari, who set out to do a 2 year historical and archaeological study of Islam and Arabia. He wound up engaged in a study of the subject 8-10 hours a day, 6 days a week for 20 years - without vacation. This included travel to, and study of, original source materials
in the Middle East and Arabia. Everyone should read his resulting book "Islam: In Light of History" available at his website
. He has made available much of his work through internet resources that are available and linked to throughout this forum. http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=56.0
They also demonize 80+ year old elder and pastor Ellis Skolfield who was raised in the Scriptures on his mother's knee as missionaries in the Philippines (his father captained "The Gospel Ship"
), who later studied at Columbia Bible College in the 1950s specializing in eschatology and biblical archaeology, and later on in life plunged into a multi-year full-time study of scripture alone - setting aside commentaries and allowing scripture to define and explain itself. "The False Prophet
" is the culmination of his life's study, and is available free at the following links. Please start at the beginning as it is a brick by brick empirical argument within an unpopular, yet at the same time the most traditional, context
Or Craig Winn who did a relentless job of marrying the Quran and Hadith passages to give the Quran context while including a thoughtful, logical, and entertaining running commentary in his 1200 page book - Prophet of Doom
(also available free online at that link). http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1130.0
It isn't hard for Muslims to find internet resources to copy and paste false and gratuitous blasphemy against the Word of God from atheists, agnostics and Islamist liars, or even others that follow false teachers. While Muslims would never quote from the Islamic cult of ahmadiyya who believe in a later prophet, they don't even realize it when they quote from cults like Charles Taze Russell and the Jehovah's Witness claim of 50,000 errors in the Gospel (which is a conspicuous and transparent lie on the face of it, since the Gospel only contains about 180,000 words in total!). The Muslims can't see that the JWs are no less under the spell of their false teacher Charles Taze Russell, than Mohammed's followers are under the curse of the false prophet Mohammed. That's why scripture instructs us to 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. The JWs had to reject the Gospel, and create their own to conform to Charles Taze Russell, just like the Mormons (LDS) had to create their "Restored Gospel" to conform to their false prophet Joseph Smith and his apparition "Maroni", and why Scripture also warns 2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].
It isn't hard for Muslims
to find internet resources to copy and paste false and gratuitous blasphemy against the Word of God from atheists, agnostics and Islamist liars, or even others that follow false teachers. While Muslims would never quote from the Islamic cult of ahmadiyya who believe in a later prophet than Muhammad, they don't even realize that is what they are doing when they quote from cults like Charles Taze Russel and his Jehovah's Witness' claim of 50,000 errors
in the Gospel (which is a conspicuous and transparent lie on the face of it, since the Gospel only contains about 180,000 words in total!). The Muslims can't see that the JWs are no less under the spell of their false teacher Charles Taze Russell, than Mohammed's followers are under the curse of the false prophet Mohammed. That's why scripture instructs us to 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
The JWs had to reject the Gospel, and create their own to conform to Charles Taze Russell, just like the Mormons (LDS) had to create their "Restored Gospel
" to conform to their false prophet Joseph Smith and his apparition "Maroni", and why Scripture also warns 2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].
Unfortunately those aren't the only folks deceived by false prophets and teachers.http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=80.0
And it isn't like we weren't warned.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.