Author Topic: The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7  (Read 5550 times)

Peter

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The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7
« on: April 09, 2011, 01:25:28 PM »
Zechariah 12:3  And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

That reads more like a headline than a 2500 year old prophecy.

As the uprising broke out in Egypt kicking off the so-called “Arab Spring”, which is another way of describing the pending conversion of the Middle East to Islamic sharia law and universal female circumcision via the Muslim Brotherhood, MSNBC was filming the crowd when a ghostly light green horse and rider appeared and moved through the crowd and then up and away.

This is the best video I have found on that event pale horse video captured by MSNBC during the Egyptian protests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLNtDqDpxzI
Another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UKz3GVrHI8
Another at the 10:26 minute mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMaVtgT2cHg

Viewing prophecy through the traditional continuous-historic context, that virtually all Jews and Christians use for Old Testament prophecy and the reformers used for New Testament prophecy including the book of Revelation, we can understand that the fourth seal has already been opened. So the image in the video - though anecdotal - is certainly not surprising to behold in terms of it's timing and the state of the world today.

Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Strong's
a pale
New Testament Greek Definition:
5515 chloros {khlo-ros'}
from the same as 5514;; adj
AV - green 3, pale 1; 4
1) green
2) yellowish pale

Death and hell were given power over the fourth part of the earth.
Is it mere coincidence that the fourth part of mankind - 1.5 billion people - are antichrist followers of the false prophet Muhammad, through Islamic mythology?
Regarding division of the earth into parts, does God's interest more likely lay in division of the earth by the physical national boundaries drawn by men, or the divisions in the spiritual condition of mankind?

of the earth
New Testament Greek Definition:
1093 ge {ghay}
contracted from a root word; TDNT - 1:677,116; n f
AV - earth 188, land 42, ground 18, country 2, world 1,
earthly + 1537 + 3588 1; 252
1) arable land
2) the ground, the earth as a standing place
3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water
4) the earth as a whole
4a) the earth as opposed to the heavens
4b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of
land, territory, region

The U.S. produces 40% of the world's corn and 33% of the world's soybeans, and because of government hippie created flooding in our heartland, a very large percentage of both of those crops will not be harvested this year.

Please visit that forum article on this government created flooding. http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2621.0

Millions live in starvation all over the world already. One poor crop season could cause millions more to starve to death, particularly now that the U.S. government subsidizes - to the tune of $1.05 to $1.38 per gallon of ethanol (to the benefit of mega corps like ADM) - the environmental atrocity, of producing corn for burning food in automobiles.

Let's look at the verse immediately before the pale horse verse.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, thou hurt not the oil and the wine.]A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Which prices in today's money, indicate unaffordable food and poverty, just as Muhammad's followers are producing in Africa and elsewhere, with 2 million killed in the Sudan alone.

Here's a little more Old Testament prophecy penned 2500 years ago.

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

How does Strong's define those "pillars of smoke":

and pillars
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
08490 tiymarah {tee-maw-raw'} or timarah {tee-maw-raw'}
from the same as 08558; TWOT - 2523d; n f
AV - pillar 2; 2
1) pillar, column
1a) palm-like spreading at top



C.S. Lewis wrote,

"God is going to invade this earth in force. But what is the good of saying you are on His side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting away like a dream, and something else -- something it never entered your head to conceive -- comes crashing in; something so beautiful to some of us, and so terrible to others, that none of us will have any choice left? For this time it will be God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistible love or irresistible horror into every creature.

It will be too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie down when it has become impossible to stand up. That will not be the time for choosing; it will be the time when we discover which side we have really chosen, whether we realized it before or not. Now, today, this moment, is our chance to choose the right side. God is holding back, to give us that chance. It will not last forever. We must take it or leave it."

Are you prepared to stand before our creator, perhaps this very day?

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

The alternative solution of these government and hippie geniuses? To plug cars into the electrical grid and operate them on coal. Any nonsense will do, as a substitute for sensible energy policy that includes exploiting our offshore resources and drilling in ANWAR and elsewhere, to eliminate our dependence on Islamic oil - while we develop economically viable alternatives.

Is it difficult to believe that a government that's arming Islamists in Lybia and elsewhere throughout the Middle East, who will before long turn those weapons against Israel at the bidding of globalist elites like George Soros via the Club of Rome, want us to remain dependent on Islamists in the Middle East to finance additional weapons with income from their oil? To further finance their jihad against non-muslims and particularly against Israel? A government that has basically put the U.S. out of the oil business, even as it spends U.S. taxpayer dollars to put foreign nations in the oil business, in a transparent effort to enrich George Soros directly.

In Revelation 13 we learn that Satan gives the "beast" his power, seat and great authority. Satan has had legal possession of the kindom's of this world ever since Adam's fall. Is it a coincidence that the power in the world today, is owned by Muhammad's followers, who didn't even have to lift a finger in the labor of developing their oil? A religion responsible for fostering some of the most unproductive people in the world.

Is it a mere coincidence that precisely 1/4 of mankind in the world today, are dead to Christ, because their false prophet Muhammad compels them to necessarily reject the blood that would save them, as an important article of their "faith"?
That's 1.5 billion souls, that scripture indicates, may be doing little more than biding time on this earth, while awaiting their second death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And the reject the whole subject of the Gospel for what? Islamic mythology that pitifully tries to masquerade as thousands of years of history, that was all created and put to the pen in the 7th and 8th centuries AD, by a bunch of SW Arabian desert dwellers that lived 1,200 kilometers away from the Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs.

To my Christian brethren, have you wondered why the eschatology you have been taught necessarily precludes even considering, that Muhammad could be THE false prophet of the book of Revelation? That the pale horse in the video above, though anecdotal, must be rejected as a fulfillment of prophecy because it is the "4th seal" of Revelation, that isn't supposed to happen until a 7 year tribulation of some, some day, or was over and done with in the first century?
Why not consider a fresh view of Revelation through the traditional continuous historic context that the reformers used for the book of Revelation?

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 6:8 kai <2532> {AND} eidon <1492> (5627) {I SAW,} kai <2532> {AND} idou <2400> (5628) {BEHOLD,} ippoV <2462> {A HORSE} clwroV <5515> {PALE,} kai <2532> {AND} o <3588> {HE} kaqhmenoV <2521> (5740) {SITTING} epanw <1883> {ON} autou <846> {IT,} onoma <3686> {NAME} autw <846> o <3588> {HIS [WAS]} qanatoV <2288> {DEATH,} kai <2532> o <3588> {AND} adhV <86> {HADES} akolouqei <190> (5719) {FOLLOWS} met <3326> {WITH} autou <846> {HIM;} kai <2532> {AND} edoqh <1325> (5681) {WAS GIVEN} autoiV <846> {TO THEM} exousia <1849> {AUTHORITY} apokteinai <615> (5658) {TO KILL} epi <1909> {OVER} to <3588> {THE} tetarton <5067> {FOURTH} thV <3588> {OF THE} ghV <1093> {EARTH} en <1722> {WITH} romfaia <4501> {SWORD} kai <2532> {AND} en <1722> {WITH} limw <3042> {FAMINE} kai <2532> {AND} en <1722> {WITH} qanatw <2288> {DEATH,} kai <2532> {AND} upo <5259> {BY} twn <3588> {THE} qhriwn <2342> {BEASTS} thV <3588> {OF THE} ghV <1093> {EARTH.}

bunny

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Re: The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2013, 10:41:54 PM »
Hi Peter,
I have been looking at Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21,in which Jesus describes when and what would be the sign of his coming,  and comparing them to Rev. 6.  As it turns out topic by topic they are almost identical.

For example the four horses match Matthew 24:7
seal 1, Horse 1 = nation against nation
seal 2, Horse 2 = kingdom against kingdom
seal 3, Horse 3 = famines
seal 4, Horse 4 = pestilences and earthquakes
 these things will come to pass but the end is not yet, says Jesus.

I thought that was the end of the similarity.  But then Jesus began the second topic telling his disciples in Luke 21:12, But before all these,          (before the wars, famines, pestilences, etc.) they shall persecute you for my name's sake. 
Or in Matthew 24, they would be hated and killed for my name's sake, but because of you the gospel will be published all over the world, meaning that this process would start with the disciples and end with us.
So what is the second topic of Rev. 6 that matches these verses? Answer, the 5th seal, Rev. 6:9, says that the souls that have been slain for the Word of God were pleading with God crying when are you ever going to avenge our blood? how long?
These slain don't  all happen in a short 7 year tribulation.  They start with the first disciples and continue throughout history.

Then in Revelation 6:12 it begins the third topic of the sun and the moon and the stars falling like figs in a wind storm.
In each of the gospels the final sign before Jesus returns is the sun and moon turning dark and the power of the heavens being shaken, and then brings up the fig tree.

There is the topic of the abomination of desolation in the gospels that isn't included in Revelation 6.  But when you read that topic in each of the gospels it becomes clear this is in the middle of history, not all falling at the end times.  It says that the armies will surround Jerusalem, the abomination will stand where it ought not, they should run and not go down into the house because it was the worst thing that ever happened.  But it goes on to explain that it has to happen in order for all things to eventually be fulfilled.  When it says that all these things will be in one generation, I think this means that all things will have already been fulfilled and we will have understood it in this last generation.  I think this was mentioned to warn them back in the 600's to get out so that they wouldn't all be killed.  We are worried for Jerusalem today, but I believe God is going to take care of Israel's enemies with an earthquake only to die on the mountains of Israel before they ever reach Jerusalem as per Ezekiel 39.
Ezekiel 37:25 says the Jews will live there forever.  26 He will set his sanctuary in the middle of them forever. 27 They will be his people 28 And the heathen will figure it out when his sanctuary is in Jerusalem forever.

PeteWaldo

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Re: The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2013, 06:16:31 AM »
Hi Peter,
I have been looking at Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21,in which Jesus describes when and what would be the sign of his coming,  and comparing them to Rev. 6.  As it turns out topic by topic they are almost identical.

For example the four horses match Matthew 24:7
seal 1, Horse 1 = nation against nation
seal 2, Horse 2 = kingdom against kingdom
seal 3, Horse 3 = famines
seal 4, Horse 4 = pestilences and earthquakes
 these things will come to pass but the end is not yet, says Jesus.

I thought that was the end of the similarity.  But then Jesus began the second topic telling his disciples in Luke 21:12, But before all these,          (before the wars, famines, pestilences, etc.) they shall persecute you for my name's sake. 
Or in Matthew 24, they would be hated and killed for my name's sake, but because of you the gospel will be published all over the world, meaning that this process would start with the disciples and end with us.
So what is the second topic of Rev. 6 that matches these verses? Answer, the 5th seal, Rev. 6:9, says that the souls that have been slain for the Word of God were pleading with God crying when are you ever going to avenge our blood? how long?
These slain don't  all happen in a short 7 year tribulation.  They start with the first disciples and continue throughout history.

Then in Revelation 6:12 it begins the third topic of the sun and the moon and the stars falling like figs in a wind storm.
In each of the gospels the final sign before Jesus returns is the sun and moon turning dark and the power of the heavens being shaken, and then brings up the fig tree.

Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Hi Bunny! It's been forever since you've posted in here! Welcome back.
An opinion on Sun, moon, stars at this link:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#matthew_24_29

I believe that may refer to this period of apostasy, which it cannot be reasonably argued is here in spades, whether someone wants to argue about it having been prophesied or not.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/falling_away_apostasy.htm#apostasy_in_europe

There is the topic of the abomination of desolation in the gospels that isn't included in Revelation 6.  But when you read that topic in each of the gospels it becomes clear this is in the middle of history, not all falling at the end times.  It says that the armies will surround Jerusalem, the abomination will stand where it ought not, they should run and not go down into the house because it was the worst thing that ever happened.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#great_tribulation
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So that pretty much excludes 70 AD, (not meaning to minimize it since a million Jews were killed), but the Romans came back less than 70 years later and killed another half to three quarters of a million Jews. And Christians were thriving there. But the Islamization of the Holy Land ended in complete and total desolation through Islam's spirit of antichrist, and desolation in terms of population, and even desolation in terms of desertification, with the land even having been denuded of trees (the geniuses of the Ottoman Empire thought it would be a good idea to tax land based on the number of trees it contained, so the Arab land owners cut them all down!).

But it goes on to explain that it has to happen in order for all things to eventually be fulfilled.

I agree with your assessment.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm

When it says that all these things will be in one generation, I think this means that all things will have already been fulfilled and we will have understood it in this last generation.

I agree. When we check Strong's the Greek term "houtos" translated as "this" is also translated as "the same" on 26 other occasions. Thus the primary touchstone of preterist doctrine goes "poof".
In conjunction with a Greek interlinear the verse may be rendered:

Matthew 24:34  Verily I say unto you, {the same} generation shall not pass, {whereinsoever} all these things {shall have taken place}.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#matt_24_34

And the "times of the Gentiles" in Jerusalem were not "fulfilled" until 1967 indicating it isn't likely a prior generation.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#times_gentiles

If a literal rather than metaphorical use of the term "generation" were not meant in the first place, as a group of men with similar characteristics and attributes. Like Christians or Christianity will not pass from the earth first.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/partial_preterism.htm#generation

While I believe the metaphorical use of the term is predominant throughout the Olivet Discourse (a minor, and perhaps very minor, opinion), I believe that a genealogical generation is meant in the case of verse 34. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't necessarily have to be a literal generation.

I think this was mentioned to warn them back in the 600's to get out so that they wouldn't all be killed.

They also took it as a warning back in 70 AD.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=3339.0

We are worried for Jerusalem today, but I believe God is going to take care of Israel's enemies with an earthquake only to die on the mountains of Israel before they ever reach Jerusalem as per Ezekiel 39.
Ezekiel 37:25 says the Jews will live there forever.  26 He will set his sanctuary in the middle of them forever. 27 They will be his people 28 And the heathen will figure it out when his sanctuary is in Jerusalem forever.

I agree they will remain, in spite of their own politicians efforts to sell them out, through each additional phony promise of peace that comes along. Their enemies have no more interest in keeping an agreement than Muhammad did, since no contract between a Muslim and an infidel is binding............on the Muslim:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=950.0

Now this is pure speculation, but I increasingly wonder if the reason God returned some faithful Jews that remain sovereignly blinded to the Gospel, was specifically so they could hold Jerusalem, since they are still in the eye for an eye mode than Christian turn the other cheek.

Particularly when we consider what happened to all of the formerly Christian lands in John's "whole world":



The same happened to Israel, but it was rendered so totally desolate by the early 19th century that virtually everyone had abandoned it, and there were just 550 people inhabiting Jerusalem. Then the Jews began to be restored to their land.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm

Here's a great webpage: "The Palestinians in Israel Natives or Aliens?"
http://www.think-israel.org/mandelbaum.arabsnativesoraliens.html



It demonstrates that the British Mandate is responsible for the Arab population in Israel, which helps to confirm Skolfield's view that it is one of the two horns, of the two horned beast (such a blessing that the traditional historicist view is evermore confirmed):
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm#two_horned_beast

Check these pictures of Tel-Aviv in 1909 and today:
http://www.modernzionism.com/zionism_in_prophecy.htm#telaviv

By the way, did you click on the link to the pale horse video in the OP?

bunny

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Re: The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2013, 10:38:52 AM »
Hi Peter,
Yes, it has been a long time.  I didn't think you would remember me.
And yes, I clicked on the you tube video of the green horse.
It is interesting, but I think most people think the horses are only supposed to come for this generation, and therefore someone, maybe a none believer, altered the video to be cute. But I absolutely could be overly suspicious. 
However, I'm optimistically thinking that 600 AD was the worst thing that will ever happen to Israel, and their enemies are in for a huge surprise coming up soon.  By the time it is over they will insist, if they are still alive, "I'm not a prophet, I'm just a poor farmer."   :D That's somewhere in the Bible.  Maybe Zechariah or Joel.
As to the sun moon and stars, what do you think about the blood moons that are coming on feast days in 2014 ad 2015?  The last time this happened was in 1967, and the time before that was 1949.  Both of those times it turned out well for Israel in the end.  I am also watching to see if the Russian asteroid is bringing some little friends.  Last time NASA completely missed it, well not completely, they just had the wrong day and the wrong direction.  Oh yeah, and comet ISON just happens to be showing up around Thanksgiving just as the sun is having a polar shift for Pete's sake!  What timing.  You could say the turkey is coming for thanksgiving this time around.
The arrival of Islam was a huge "falling away", and was probably the thing that made Daniel have to go to bed he was so sick over it.  No wonder the angel told him to seal it up until the end.  It still plays a big part in the nations all being in "perplexity over what is about to come on the earth."
God will shelter us.  He will take care of his own one way or another.

PeteWaldo

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Re: The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2013, 02:29:02 PM »
Hi Peter,
Yes, it has been a long time.  I didn't think you would remember me.
And yes, I clicked on the you tube video of the green horse.
It is interesting, but I think most people think the horses are only supposed to come for this generation,........

We are living during the same generation that saw the times of the Gentiles in Jerusalem fulfilled. With a fourth part of mankind in the world today, that may be killing themselves by following Islam, because they had no love of truth, the Arab spring and world events fit quite well.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=3462.0

Along with the Muslim Brotherhood's consolidation and increase of the Islamic beast's power. With over 80 churches burned in Egypt in a single week. Christian persecution that is unprecedented in world history.
From the Hoover Institute: "Few people realize that we are today living through the largest persecution of Christians in history, worse even than the famous attacks under ancient Roman emperors like Diocletian and Nero. Estimates of the numbers of Christians under assault range from 100-200 million. According to one estimate, a Christian is martyred every five minutes. And most of this persecution is taking place at the hands of Muslims. Of the top fifty countries persecuting Christians, forty-two have either a Muslim majority or have sizeable Muslim populations."
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm

....... and therefore someone, maybe a none believer, altered the video to be cute.

That video is exactly as it appeared on the air on national TV, when it was being filmed live. It was heavily discussed at the time. If I am not mistaken I think even the talking heads on the TV saw it and commented on it at the time. I just added two more videos from two other networks (the second link that was there was to a closed youtube acct). One the origin of the video, and the two others with it in the background.

But I absolutely could be overly suspicious. 
However, I'm optimistically thinking that 600 AD was the worst thing that will ever happen to Israel, and their enemies are in for a huge surprise coming up soon.  By the time it is over they will insist, if they are still alive, "I'm not a prophet, I'm just a poor farmer."   :D That's somewhere in the Bible.  Maybe Zechariah or Joel.
As to the sun moon and stars, what do you think about the blood moons that are coming on feast days in 2014 ad 2015?

It tend toward the figurative view I left a link to, but regarding 2014-2015 that just happens to coincide with the timing of the harbinger as well. See the embedded video here if you are unfamiliar with that.
http://www.beyondtheharbinger.com/

However I abhor doing any future-predicting.
Isaac Newton: "The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm#fulfilled_prophecy

The last time this happened was in 1967, and the time before that was 1949.  Both of those times it turned out well for Israel in the end.  I am also watching to see if the Russian asteroid is bringing some little friends.  Last time NASA completely missed it, well not completely, they just had the wrong day and the wrong direction.  Oh yeah, and comet ISON just happens to be showing up around Thanksgiving just as the sun is having a polar shift for Pete's sake!  What timing.  You could say the turkey is coming for thanksgiving this time around.
The arrival of Islam was a huge "falling away", and was probably the thing that made Daniel have to go to bed he was so sick over it.  No wonder the angel told him to seal it up until the end.  It still plays a big part in the nations all being in "perplexity over what is about to come on the earth."
God will shelter us.  He will take care of his own one way or another.

He didn't shelter any of the Apostles from death by martyrdom - except John who proved to be somewhat unkillable - so was banished to the penal colony on Patmos instead. I'm not expecting a pass from persecution (particularly given my ministry activities), any more than most of the 105,000 to 180,000 Christians that are martyred around the world every year, likely are. Many murdered for not renouncing Jesus Christ, or refusing to parrot the shahada. Our reward is in the next life, while we should expect persecution in this one. As you said, "one way or another".

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will  live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm

bunny

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Re: The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2013, 05:28:32 PM »
Okay, Peter, I give.
Best to pray that we be worthy to escape all these things that are coming on the earth.
Given the choice, I'd rather be on this side of the planet though since the millstone is for Babylon.  Revelation 18:21  "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

Daniel 2:34-47  re: the king's statue...
Daniel 2:45  "Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; (all Middle Eastern) the great God that made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."(no guess work needed there)

But ultimately I'd rather be with Jesus, so as we agree, he'll take care of us one way or the other. ::)
Love your emoticons btw   :o :-X ???

PeteWaldo

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Re: The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2013, 07:13:56 AM »
Okay, Peter, I give.

But I'm not sure you understood.

Best to pray that we be worthy to escape all these things that are coming on the earth.

Why not instead pray for the strength that may be required for us to suffer what Satan and his people may subject us to? Even pray that He may consider us "worthy" enough, to put us before His enemies (as in the example of these Coptic Christians), in the place of some other Christian that may not have the spiritual strength to suffer persecution?

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

This whole "escape" business would seem to be rooted in John Darby's 19th century "pre-trib" "rapture" doctrine.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=7.0

How come Jesus' Apostles weren't "worthy to escape" persecution and martyrdom? Were they just too unworthy?
What about the Christians being murdered by Muhammad's followers in Nigeria? Not "worthy" enough to "escape"?
http://nigeriacalabash.com/content/attack-christians-11-2011
Or the rest of the 105,000 to 180,000 Christians martyred around the world every year? Not worthy enough?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm
Or the rest of the Christians martyred throughout the last nearly 2,000 years?

I think Darby's doctrine has contributed to blinding much of the church, to the sufferings of our brothers and sisters around the world, as well as the marginalization of their suffering. As in a cushy, coddled, westerner suggestion of "Gee if you think tribulation is bad now, you just wait until the 7 year tribulation.....", even as we find ourselves in the midst of the greatest period of persecution and martyrdom of Christians in world history.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

bunny

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Re: The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2013, 12:05:33 PM »
Pete,
Why pray for escape?
Basically because I'm a girl and I'm chicken.  Well, "girl" is a stretch, but I am definitely a chicken.  And besides it's biblical.
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."  Luke 21:36.

PeteWaldo

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Re: The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2013, 01:23:58 PM »
Pete,
Why pray for escape?
Basically because I'm a girl and I'm chicken.  Well, "girl" is a stretch, but I am definitely a chicken.  And besides it's biblical.
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."  Luke 21:36.

If your understanding were "biblical" regarding it referring to escaping persecution (which those who live Godly in Christ Jesus are pretty much guaranteed to suffer), then by extension, the Apostles would not have been worthy enough, since they were in fact martyred. As well as everyone else who has been martyred throughout the Christian era apparently being unworthy.

The verse you cite follows these:

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

If you browse commentaries I believe you will find a general understanding of it referring to being worthy of standing in judgment, and escaping the wrath of God, rather than the wrath of men or the trials and tribulations of the kingdoms of this world.

I look at it like being able to suffer those things listed in the Olivet Discourse that have and are to come upon the world, while escaping betraying Jesus, as a result of them.
For example if a Muslim held a beheading knife to your throat and demanded that you renounce Jesus as your Lord and Savior (as happens over and over to our brethren all around the world every year), or he demands that you deny that Jesus is the Son of God, and you refused to do as requested, and were beheaded as a result, then you would have escaped denying the Son of God. Thus you would have escaped the "second death", by loosing your temporal life.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

You would have lived by dying!

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I'm afraid John Darby's pre-trib rapture heresy, or even the residual scars therefrom, may have many Christians woefully unprepared for what has been coming down the pike in the west - even the U.S.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=3800.0

As has already come well down the pike in so much of the rest of the world.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm

bunny

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Re: The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2013, 12:09:36 PM »
Peter,
We were talking about the sun moon and stars and whether we should be watching them for a sign.
I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture.  I believe in a pre-wrath rapture.
It is in Chapter 11 of Revelation.  Verse 11. And after 3 days and an half (1/2 of 7) the Spirit of life from God entered into them, (the witnesses, us) and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither.  And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 

That happens during the 6th trump, or the end of the second half of the all encompassing final 7.

At the seventh trump, verse 18, "the nations were angry,(as well as all those who had started beating their servants and surfeiting per Matthew 24 and who went and missed it) and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servant the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 and the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."  (it's hailing on earth, not in heaven)

Somebody somewhere, along with at least ten virgins and some foolish Matthew 24ers, weren't ready to go.

Rev. 16:16  "Behold, I come as a thief.  Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 
(according to Jewish custom, the watchers before Rosh Hashana, or feast of trumpets, were supposed to be watching "the sun and the moon" to determine if it was the day for the feast of trumpets.  Anybody who was discovered sleeping during his watch, the high priest who was making his rounds, would set the sleeping watcher's robe, which was supposed to be white, on fire and the poor guy would go running screaming and naked through the streets in shame.)
16 And he (God) gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 and there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Sounds remarkably like Ezekiel 38.
And since the armies of God come back with him, maybe I'll see you there.  According to Ezekiel 40 we'll be building a temple.
But for now, I really don't want to find myself on the wrong end of one of those 100 pound hail stones coming out of heaven.  I'm going to pray I'm worthy to escape ahead of time.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 12:19:54 PM by bunny »

PeteWaldo

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Re: The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2013, 12:46:28 PM »
According to Ezekiel 40 we'll be building a temple.

Who're the "we"?
And according to your other understanding (of Luke 21:36), those who are "worthy" enough will escape persecution.

Who would "we" be building a temple for?
Jesus built His/my temple in 3 days, almost 2,000 years ago, just as He declared He could:

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.  20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

His disciples didn't have any trouble believing the scripture!

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I'm a fellowcitizen with the saints, in the household of God, in the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

Who would dwell in the temple that you would build?

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Any future rebuilt temple would be desolate before it was ever built, by God's design.

Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=552.0

bunny

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Re: The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2013, 12:41:44 PM »
Pete,
I realize that but what about the temple that will stand forever in Jerusalem according to Ezekiel 37:28.
Filling them with his spirit happens in 36:27.  Actually it happens whenever a person is ready.  It happened for me in 1983.
When did it happen for you?
Did you know that there has been a large number of Jews who have been filled with the spirit recently?  And Iranians too.  Jesus is showing up in their dreams.

PeteWaldo

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Re: The Pale Horse of Revelation 6:7
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2013, 05:22:19 PM »
Pete,
I realize that but what about the temple that will stand forever in Jerusalem according to Ezekiel 37:28.

Jesus built it nearly 2,000 years ago through His crucifixion death and resurrection.

Did you know that there has been a large number of Jews who have been filled with the spirit recently?  And Iranians too.  Jesus is showing up in their dreams.

A while back I looked for articles regarding Jews in that regard but don't remember finding any. Didn't know about the Iranians either.
I think the figure is that 43% of the 6 million Muslims that come to Christ every year, do so through a dream, vision or being spoken to directly by Jesus.