Author Topic: The 12 Sons / Tribes of Ishmael  (Read 7691 times)

Peter

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The 12 Sons / Tribes of Ishmael
« on: November 01, 2011, 06:41:43 AM »
new page
http://www.brotherpete.com/12_sons_tribes_ishmael.htm

Gen 25:13 And these [are] the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, 14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, 15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah: 16 These [are] the sons of Ishmael, and these [are] their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations. 17 And these [are] the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people. 18 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that [is] before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: [and] he died in the presence of all his brethren.

The tribes of Ishmael inhabited a region "... from Havilah unto Shur, that [is] before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria...".

[map added 4-5-14]


The traditional presumed location of the Wilderness of Shur is above the upper left of this satellite image, however according to a later suggested location of Mt. Sinai, the wilderness of Shur may instead be in the location detailed on the following map from the web site bible.ca, to the east of the Gulf of Aqaba.

http://www.andrews.edu/archaeology/archive/merling/newpage5.htm



The traditional location, as indicated on the following map from the andrews.edu web site, is even much further from where Mecca was eventually established, in about the 4th century AD.



http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-wilderness-of-shur-ishmaelites-midianites-amalekites.htm

"... from Havilah unto Shur, that [is] before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria..."



The territory is described "....as thou goest toward Assyria..." perhaps akin to saying "by way of Assyria".

as thou goest
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0935 bow' {bo}
a primitive root; TWOT - 212; v
AV - come 1435, bring 487, ... in 233, enter 125, go 123, carry 17,
...down 23, pass 13, ...out 12, misc 109; 2577
1) to go in, enter, come, go, come in

Rather than the straight line indicated on the map above, the center of the territory of the tribes of Ishmael may have been more toward the north of the harsh Syrian and Arabian deserts, and closer to the "fertile crescent" in which Abraham traveled. Particularly since the tribes of Kedar and Nebaioth were known for their flocks of sheep.

Isaiah 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.



Syrian Desert
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Desert

We know more about Ishmael's son Nabajoth, than perhaps any other, which may have become the Nabataeans. From the preceding link:

"... Assyrian records tell us of King Ashurbanipal (668-663 BC) who was fighting with the 'Nabaiateans of Arabia.'" A thousand kilometers from Mecca, a thousand years before it was established, and still before history tells us the first caravan was ever able to travel from North to South along the Red Sea Arabia.

"... from Havilah unto Shur, that [is] before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria:"

Map of Assyria around 1100 BC at this web site.

Map of Assyria in 824 BC in dark green and 671 BC in light green.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Assyria.png



We can see from the maps that in Ishmael's day in around 1,000 BC, Assyria, who the Nabaiateans were fighting hundreds of years later, was still well over 1000 kilometers from where Mecca is located today. So how or why would Ishmael have been living in Mecca, about 1400 years before it was established, and over a 1,000 kilometers away from where his sons lived?

 (link)
The Tribe of Nabajoth

Sixteen hundred years after Ishmael roamed the earth and 1200 kilometers away from the Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs, a Meccan named Ibn Ishak, the earliest reporter of Muhammad's life, declared that Muhammad came from the Ishmaelite tribe of Nabajoth. While many of Muhammad's Middle Eastern followers may have traces of the seed of the lost tribes of Ishmael in their ancestry, since Muhammad's tribe the Quraish immigrated to Mecca from Yemen Muhammad was more likely Kush*te, since the historical and linguistic evidence suggests that Southern Arabia was settled by Ethiopians that migrated across the strait.

"Like all other Semitic languages, Arabic is the descendant of a so-called "Proto-Semitic" language, which is currently believed to have developed in East Africa and which never evolved in a written form. Arabic and Amharic, the two most recent Semitic languages, both arose in the mid-300s."

 (link)
Tribe of Kedar

Muhammad's followers will sometimes lay claim to Kedar, but from what we know about the Kedarites it isn't anything to boast about. The Twelve Lost Tribes of Ishmael

"Nehemiah's opponent, 'Geshem the Arab' has been identified as one of the kings of Kedar from the mid fifth century BC. (based on a number of North Arabian inscriptions)

Regarding their religion, Assyrian inscriptions tell us that Sennacherib captured of several Arabian deities in the Kedarite city of Dumah. The chief deity was Atarsamain, or the morning star of heaven. (the counterpart of Mesopotamian Ishtar). The tribal league led by the Kedarites was known as "the confederation of Atarsamain, and their cult was led by a series of queen-priestesses in Dumah. The rest of their pantheon of gods consisted of Dai, Nuhai (Nuhay), Ruldai (Ruda), Abirillu, and Atarquruma. Rock graffiti in the Thamudic language reveals that Ruda was known as the evening star, and Nuhay was the sun-god, and they were worshiped in addition to Atarsamain 'the morning star.' Herodotus, in the fifth century BC identified two deities worshiped among the Arabs, as a fertility god called Orotalt (perhaps Ruda, as identified by Macdonald in North Arabian in the First Millennium BC, 1360), and a sky goddess know as Allat. (Herodotus III,3.) Later Allat became referred to in the masculine form as Allah)"

Ishmael ".... died in the presence of all his brethren". Did Isaac and Jacob live in Mecca too?



Once again indicating the value of Islamic so-called "tradition", that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-Muhammad history, the entirety of which was put to the pen in the 7th through 9th centuries AD, without reference to any actual historical record from before the 6th century AD. Yet Muhammad's followers believe it as though it were actual history - even including notions like Muhammad's unwitnessed night journey - even though a bunch of 7th - 9th century SW Arabian desert dwellers could not have had the first clue, as to what went on thousands of years before them, and over a thousand kilometers away, in the Holy Land of the prohets and patriarchs.


It isn't too late. You can begin a relationship, with the one true God of love YHWH, as He expressed Himself through His Messiah. All you have to do is ask Yeshua (means Yahweh saves), Jesus Christ, to come into your heart and life.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

twelve tribes of ishmael
http://www.balaams-ass.com/alhaj/twelvetribesofishmael.htm

Let alone that Muhammad himself couldn't have been a descendent of Ishmael.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1216.0


Peter

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Re: The 12 Sons / Tribes of Ishmael
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2011, 09:05:02 AM »
Please reply regarding this particular post on the thread at the following link
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1216.0

IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?

By Dr. Rafat Amari

Muslims believe that Mohammed is a descendant of Ishmael. As proof of their position, Muslims refer to genealogies written around 770-775 A.D. by Ibn Ishak.

What he has written is simply not true.  Ishmaelite tribes, especially the tribe of Nebaioth from which, according to Ibn Ishak, Mohammed is said to have come, were nomadic tribes who lived in the Sinai and Fertile Crescent deserts. These tribes disappeared after the 7th century B.C.

Mohammed's family was a Sabaean Yemeni family, while the Ishmaelites, who lived in the deserts of the Fertile Crescent, became extinct many centuries before Mohammed's family left Yemen.

Historians say that the family of Mohammed was a  family which lived in Saba-Yemen. In the 5th century A.D., Qusayy Bin Kilab, the 8th ancestor of Mohammed, gathered an alliance of many Yemeni families forming Quraish, the tribe from which Mohammed later came.  These families only came to occupy Mecca in the 5th century A.D. The city of Mecca was built by the tribe of Khuzaa'h in the 4th century A.D.

 Mohammed’s family is not connected to any Ishmaelite tribe because Mohammed’s family didn’t leave Yemen until the 5th  century A.D., and that’s about  1,100 years  after the Ishmaelites disappeared. Mohammed’s tribe could not have lived in the same locations as the Ishmaelite tribes at any time throughout history.

The genealogy fabricated by Ibn-Ishak contradicts the sayings of Mohammed, who expressed his ignorance about his ancestors prior to his 17th ancestor.

Ibn Ishak was considered by the Muslim scholars of his time as being guilty of forgery and fabricating false genealogies.[1]

Long before Ibn Ishak, Muslims who lived in Mohammed’s own time also fabricated genealogies in an attempt to connect Mohammed to the descendants of Ishmael.  Mohammed, himself, rejected all of these false genealogies, and he put limits regarding the genealogy of his ancestors. Regarding Mohammed’s own rejection of the false genealogies, Amru bin al-As wrote:

Mohammed genealogized himself regarding his ancestors until he reached al-Nather bin Kinaneh, then he said, “anyone who claimed otherwise or added further ancestors, has lied.”[2][ii]

By this, Mohammed confessed that neither he, nor anyone else, knew about his ancestors beyond al-Nather bin Kinaneh. Nather bin Kinaneh is the 17th ancestor in the genealogy which Mohammed recognized as true. Other narrations of the customs, or sayings, of Mohammed, called Hadiths, show Mohammed refused to be genealogized prior to Maad,  معدwho some suggested, was the 4th ancestor prior to al-Nather bin Kinaneh.[3][iii]

Please reply regarding this particular post on the thread at the following link
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1216.0

Peter

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Re: The 12 Sons / Tribes of Ishmael
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2011, 09:12:48 AM »
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0015_0_14640.html
NEBAIOTH (Heb. נְבָיוֹת, נְבָיֹת), a tribe or a group of tribes of nomads in the border deserts of Israel, identified with the Nabaiāte mentioned in the Assyrian documents from the time of Ashurbanipal. The Nebaioth are not to be connected with the *Nabateans, as some classical authors mistakenly did (cf. Jos., Ant. 1:221; 12:335, et al.; Jerome in his commentary to Gen. 25:13–18). According to Genesis 25:13 and I Chronicles 1:29, Nebaioth was the firstborn of Ishmael and according to Genesis 36:3 he was also the brother of Esau's wife Basemath, daughter of Ishmael. In Isaiah 60:6–7 Nebaioth is mentioned with Kedar, another son of Ishmael (Gen. 25:13), among the nomadic tribes on the border of Israel.

Peter

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Re: The 12 Sons / Tribes of Ishmael
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2011, 10:44:44 AM »
http://www.balaams-ass.com/alhaj/twelvetribesofishmael.htm#anchor52374

Nabajoth
More information is known about the dependence of Ishmael's eldest son, Nabajoth than any of the others.

In the Bible, Qedar and the tribe of Nebayot were renown for sheep raising. Isaiah 60:7. Their names are frequently found together in Assyrian records.

Nabajoth is specifically mentioned by the Jewish historian Josephus, who identified the Nabataeans of his time with Ishmael's eldest son. He claimed that the Nabataeans lived through the whole country extending from the Euphrates to the Red Sea, and referred to this area as 'Nabatene,' or the area that the Nabataeans ranged in. Josephus goes on to say that it was the Nabataeans who conferred their names on the Arabian nations. (Jewish
Antiquities I.22,1) Josephus lived and wrote during the time that the Nabataeans were in existence, and supposedly, he obtained his information directly from the Nabataeans themselves. These Nabataeans spoke and wrote an early form of Arabic and thus they were often referred to as 'Arabs' by Greek and Roman historians.

Previous to this, Assyrian records tell us of King Ashurbanipal (668-663 BC) who was fighting with the 'Nabaiateans of Arabia.' Then in 703 BC a group of Chaldaeans and neighboring tribes rebelled against Sennacherib, the Assyrian ruler. The ancient records of Tiglath Pilezeer III list, among the rebels, the Hagaranu (possibly the descendants of Hagar, the mother of Ishmael), the Nabatu (very possibly the descendants of Nebayoth, the eldest son of Ishmael) and the Kedarites (descendants of Ishmael's second son). According to the records, these tribes fled from Assyria into the Arabian Desert and could not be conquered.

The Assyrian kingdom eventually broke into two as two brothers began to rule, one the King of Babylonia and the other the King of Assyria. In 652 BC conflict broke out between these two brothers, and in support of the Babylonian king, the Kedarites invaded western Assyria, were defeated, and fled to Natnu the leader of the Nabayat for safety. (As described in the records of Esarhaddan) Later the Kedarites and the Nabayat attacked the western boarders of Assyria but were defeated. After their defeat, Natnu's son, Nuhuru was declared the leader of the Nabatu.

Three hundred years later the Nabatu surface again, this time in the Zenon papyri which date from 259 BC. They mention that the Nabatu were trading Gerrhean and Minaean frankincense, transporting them to Gaza and Syria at that time. They transported their goods through the Kedarite centers of Northern Arabia, Jauf, and Tayma. Early Nabataean pottery has also been found in locations on the Persian Gulf, along the coasts of Saudi Arabia and Bahrain. (Tuwayr, Zubayda, Thaj, and Ayn Jawan) There are also ancient references to the Nabatu, as living along the western edges of the Arabian Peninsula and in the Sinai. These Nabatu were also pirates who sailed the Red Sea plundering trading vessels. Later they established bases in a number of seaports, including the port city of Aila (modern day Aqaba), which is only some 120 km from present day Petra.

While most of us think of the Nabataeans as people who transported goods in the desert by camel caravan, it has become increasingly evident that the Nabataeans were also a sea trading people.

It is quite clear from the historical records that in 586 BC, as the Edomites began a gradual migration north, into Jewish lands that had been emptied by Nebuchadnezzar, the tribes of Arabia also began to move northward. From their port city of Aila, (Aqaba) it was only a short move inland for the Nabatu to occupy the quickly emptying land of the Edomites, eventually making it the heart of the Nabataean Empire.

Although the chronology is not yet clear, it appears that some Edomites remained behind. Those that emigrated into Judeah became known as "Idumaeans." These were some of the people that opposed the Jews during the rebuilding of the temple at Jerusalem under Ezra; and the rebuilding of the city walls of Jerusalem under Nehemiah.

In time, the Nabataeans built an impressive civilization based on merchant trade. Their capital was originally the city of Petra, located deep in the sandstone mountains of southern Jordan. Later, Bostra, in southern Syria also functioned as a royal city. The Nabataeans also built a number of other cities, many of them in the Negev, while others were located in Northern Saudi Arabia today, and in other parts of modern Jordan. In 106 AD they seceded their empire to the Romans and eventually their Nabataean distinctiveness disappeared.

Kedar
As we have already mentioned, the sons of Kedar became known as the Kedarites. The Kedarites were the main military power of the sons of Ishmael. Isaiah speaks of Kedar's 'glory and her gifted archers.' (Isaiah 21:16-17) Ezekiel 27:21 associates Arabia with all of the princes of Kedar, suggesting a confederation under their leadership.

During history, the Kedarites were in constant conflict with the Assyrians. The Assyrians, Neo-Babylonians, Persians and even the Roman realized the importance of taking control of the commercial routes in northern Arabia that were under the dominion of the Kedarites (and later the Nabataeans).

Nehemiah's opponent, 'Geshem the Arab' has been identified as one of the kings of Kedar from the mid fifth century BC. (based on a number of North Arabian inscriptions)

Regarding their religion, Assyrian inscriptions tell us that Sennacherib captured of several Arabian deities in the Kedarite city of Dumah. The chief deity was Atarsamain, or the morning star of heaven. (the counterpart of Mesopotamian Ishtar). The tribal league led by the Kedarites was known as "the confederation of Atarsamain, and their cult was led by a series of queen-priestesses in Dumah. The rest of their pantheon of gods consisted of Dai, Nuhai (Nuhay), Ruldai (Ruda), Abirillu, and Atarquruma. Rock graffiti in the Thamudic language reveals that Ruda was known as the evening star, and Nuhay was the sun-god, and they were worshiped in addition to Atarsamain 'the morning star.' Herodotus, in the fifth century BC identified two deities worshiped among the Arabs, as a fertility god called Orotalt (perhaps Ruda, as identified by Macdonald in North Arabian in the First Millennium BC, 1360), and a sky goddess know as Allat. (Herodotus III,3.) Later Allat became referred to in the masculine form as Allah)

The Kedarites are mentioned in a number of places in the Bible, and always referred to as nomads.

Psalm 120:5 This Psalm is a cry of distress, as the writer has fled and lives in a place called Meshech in the tents of the Kedarites.

Isaiah 42:11 Kedar is mentioned in a song of praise.

Jeremiah 2:10 The children of Israel are advised to check with Kedar and see if it is an ordinary thing for a people to forsake their gods and turn to others.

Jeremiah 49:28 This passage presents us with a prophecy against Arabia (Hazor and Kedar) foretelling that Nebuchadnezzar a king of Babylon will destroy them.

Ezekiel 27:21 In this lament over the city of Tyre, it is mentioned that Arabia, and the princes of Kedar traded lambs, rams, and goats with Tyre.

In the middle of the fourth century BC, the Kedarites seem to fade from history and the Nabataeans then come to the forefront.

http://www.balaams-ass.com/alhaj/twelvetribesofishmael.htm#anchor52374

Peter

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Re: The 12 Sons / Tribes of Ishmael
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 08:00:45 AM »
Search the scriptures as you may you will find that Yahweh had no ministry for the seed of Ishmael, but only a suggestion that they would become numerous. Scripture tells us that they did indeed become numerous, but then faded from history, along with Ishmael's name. Compare how many Muslims are named Ishmael with how many of Yahweh's people are named Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Yahweh's covenant with Abraham is transmitted through Isaac and then through his son JACOB, whose 12 sons became the 12 tribes of Israel.

Old Testament

Genesis 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, [Hagar] Behold, thou [art] with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand [will be] against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Exd 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

2Ki 13:23 And the LORD was gracious unto them, and had compassion on them, and had respect unto them, because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not destroy them, neither cast he them from his presence as yet.

1Ch 16:16 [Even of the covenant] which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; 17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, [and] to Israel [for] an everlasting covenant,

Psa 105:9 Which [covenant] he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; 10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, [and] to Israel [for] an everlasting covenant:

New Testament

Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.

Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.

Act 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so [Abraham] begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac [begat] Jacob; and Jacob [begat] the twelve patriarchs.

Act 7:31 When Moses saw [it], he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold [it], the voice of the Lord came unto him, 32 [Saying], I [am] the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;

Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Hbr 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son], 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/tribes.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites


Dan Gibson

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Re: The 12 Sons / Tribes of Ishmael
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2012, 10:45:27 AM »
You can also read an article on the 12 sons of Ishmael at my website:

http://nabataea.net/12tribes.html

The important thing to notice here is that the descendants of Ishmael were all in northern Arabia, and not associated with southern Arabia or Mecca at all.