Author Topic: Quranic Geography  (Read 2985 times)

Dan Gibson

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Quranic Geography
« on: January 17, 2012, 10:56:27 AM »
Some months ago now, I released a new book on Qur'anic Geography. In this book we examine the people of 'Ad, Tham'ud, Midian, Medina, etc., as well as the original holy city of Islam. I claim to have found it in northern Arabia. I did this by lining up the qiblas of around a dozen early mosques, and finding out where they all point. I then have several chapters on how this location correlates with early descriptions of Mecca. Eg: city walls, gardens, soil, trees, trade routes, etc.  There is a 20 page booklet available at http://searchformecca.com
if anyone is interested. It is called The Mecca Question, and is available in a variety of languages such as Dutch, Arabic, and Korean. Persian and German will be available soon.

Many of my research results are similar to Dr. Amari, but some are different. It should make interesting reading for those interested in this topic.

Peter

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Re: Quranic Geography
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2012, 11:06:42 AM »
Some months ago now, I released a new book on Qur'anic Geography. In this book we examine the people of 'Ad, Tham'ud, Midian, Medina, etc., as well as the original holy city of Islam. I claim to have found it in northern Arabia. I did this by lining up the qiblas of around a dozen early mosques, and finding out where they all point. I then have several chapters on how this location correlates with early descriptions of Mecca. Eg: city walls, gardens, soil, trees, trade routes, etc.  There is a 20 page booklet available at http://searchformecca.com
if anyone is interested. It is called The Mecca Question, and is available in a variety of languages such as Dutch, Arabic, and Korean. Persian and German will be available soon.

Many of my research results are similar to Dr. Amari, but some are different. It should make interesting reading for those interested in this topic.

Hi Dan and welcome to the forum! :)

Phil had posted a thread on your book in the book section, and after you registered, I copied it into that thread so we could discuss it.
You can access my first question at this link.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2929.msg12076#msg12076

Peter

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Re: Quranic Geography
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2012, 03:27:18 PM »
Some months ago now, I released a new book on Qur'anic Geography. In this book we examine the people of 'Ad, Tham'ud, Midian, Medina, etc., as well as the original holy city of Islam.

May as well get two threads going at the same time.

What sources of information did you use to examine the people of 'Ad?

Peter

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Re: Quranic Geography
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 01:51:21 AM »
Some months ago now, I released a new book on Qur'anic Geography. In this book we examine the people of 'Ad, Tham'ud, Midian, Medina, etc., as well as the original holy city of Islam.

May as well get two threads going at the same time.

What sources of information did you use to examine the people of 'Ad?

Well it's been a week now and you haven't yet engaged in a chat so I will detail the reason I asked. As far as I know the only source regarding the people of "Ad" is the Quran, and even you, yourself, recognize the difficulty of oral tradition.

It seems that most of the Qur'an was retained in oral fashion rather than written form. While the Arabs were
great memorizers and had the ability to retain the entirety of the Qur'an, the
retention of materials in an oral tradition suffers from two difficulties. First,
the accuracy of the memories of the individuals involved must be perfect. In
the case of the Qur'an, arguments arose over various verses, how they should
be rendered, and if they should or should not be included in the whole.
Second, the problem of transferring knowledge from the learned to the
novice is often a difficult step. In the case of the Qur'an, most of the men who
had memorized the sayings of Muhammad were also warriors. As is often the
case, warriors die in battle, and their knowledge of the Qur'an perished with
them. This is amply illustrated in the Battle of Yamama when an estimated
450 men who had memorized the Qur'an were killed.

Any record created in the 7th century AD, that pretends to speak about times that date back thousands of years all the way back to Noah, without reference to any actual historical record, cannot possibly be anything more than pure fiction. Even a far greater stretch for an oral tradition to have been transmitted through thousands of years for Muhammad's consumption, since his tribe the Quraish and Mecca were all given over to pagans and paganism and pagan tradition, that venerated 360 idols, before Muhammad invented his religion. It's obvious that no truth could have been transmitted through that haze.

From Dr. Rafat Amari
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1216.0

"Enormous historical mistakes exist in the Quran, and the genealogies created after the rise of Islam, to support the Quran. Some examples are the genealogies regarding Thamud and Nimrod.

There are other serious historical mistakes in the Islamic genealogies regarding the tribe of Thamud. Thamud is an Arabic tribe which appeared in the 8th century B.C., as was attested at the time of the Assyrian King Sargon II through his Inscriptions. Thamud later lost its political power about the 5th century A.D. The Islamic genealogies attempted to back statements made in the Qur’an which placed Thamud and Ad – another Arabian tribe which appeared after Thamud-as tribes which came right after Noah. So they created a father for the tribe of Thamud and named him “Thamud.” Then they claimed he was the grandson of Shem, the son of Noah. All this was created just to fit the narration of the Qur’an.

The Qur’an claims that the tribe of Thamud was the third generation after Noah, ( The Qur’an made the Arabian tribe of Ad to be second generation after Noah’s generation; then Thamud as the third generation, See Surah 7:69; 23:31,32;14:8,9) and it was condemned by Allah to be punished by a wind. (The wind was the god who brought judgment in Zoroastrianism.

We know this is also an enormous historical mistake. Not only did Thamud not appear until the 8th century B.C., but the official history, as shown by Assyrian inscriptions, demonstrates that Thamud continued to exist during the 7th century B.C. Also, writings by various Greek and Roman geographers who wrote about Arabia, said Thamud continued until the 5th century A.D. as a politically-organized tribe which occupied a large part of northern Arabia. No wind destroyed the tribe, as the Qur’an claims.

This should be enough to convince us, but there’s yet another enormous historical mistake in the Islamic genealogies. This one concerns Nimrod. According to Genesis 10:8-11, Nimrod was the first builder of the old cities of Mesopotamia. He was the son of Cush, the son of Ham, the son of Noah.We can date him to between 5000 and 4500 B.C.

Islamic genealogies correctly state that Nimrod was the son of Cush, but incorrectly state that he lived around the time of Abraham. This false claim about Nimrod was made to conform to a mistake in the Qur’an, which made Nimrod reign at the time of Abraham. The Qur’an says Nimrod persecuted Abraham and cast him into a fire which did not harm him. We read this in Surah al-Anbiya’ 21:51-70 and Surah al-Safat 37:95. The narration of the Qur’an is taken from the Jewish book called Midrash Rabbah, chapter 17."
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1216.0

If indeed your book does "examine the people of 'Ad" and the Quran and Islamic "tradition" is your sole source, I'm sure you can see the difficulty in that, and the scholarship it suggests.

Peter

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Re: Quranic Geography
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 02:17:22 AM »
Some months ago now, I released a new book on Qur'anic Geography. In this book we examine the people of 'Ad, Tham'ud, Midian, Medina, etc., as well as the original holy city of Islam. I claim to have found it in northern Arabia. I did this by lining up the qiblas of around a dozen early mosques, and finding out where they all point.

It would seem that depends on which qiblas ones one selects. After discovering the website islamicawareness and noticing some qiblas trying to make an argument there, but without a map showing where they point to.

I took one of my maps of Saudi Arabia and held a piece of paper on my computer screen, then scrolled until the line got to the start point of the mosque. Here was my working thread
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1230.0

Rather than being a bunch of parallel lines that would seem more to suggest pointing to a celestial body as in your study, the 3 qibla that I cherry picked point, not quite to, an area near Mada'in Saleh, al-ula and Dedan area.

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1230.0

Embellished later

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1121.msg11952#msg11952



Quite a ways from Petra, if this is the Petra you are talking about.



http://markshoberg.blogspot.com/2011/05/petra-rose-red-city-half-as-old-as-time.html

Peter

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Re: Quranic Geography
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2012, 02:20:08 AM »
But then I guess I missed the whole point of your book anyway. While I understand why the direction that Muslims pray matters to them, what actual difference does it make what direction Muhammad's followers point to prostrate themselves to a black stone idol that they cannot deny was venerated by pagans before them? Indeed one of 360 idols that Muhammad venerated both as a pagan and after he invented his religion. Why does it matter which 2 hills they run back and forth between in the recycled Arabian jinn devil worship ritual of the saee?
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

Isn't it more important that Muslims be shown that they are engaging in recycled pagan rituals, rather than being corrected as to what direction to point while engaging in them? Did I miss something?

Phill

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Re: Quranic Geography
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2012, 04:02:21 AM »
Some months ago now, I released a new book on Qur'anic Geography. In this book we examine the people of 'Ad, Tham'ud, Midian, Medina, etc., as well as the original holy city of Islam.

May as well get two threads going at the same time.

What sources of information did you use to examine the people of 'Ad?

Hi Pete

I may be able to offer a short speil on the people of AD based on Dan's research. The issue is that the people of AD is only found in Islamic literature and nowhere else. The word AD is not an Arabic one as it has no root as all Arabic words do. Dan explaines that the word is taken as a rendition of an earlier semitic language of Eber. Dan explaines that Arabic consonants can be interchanged that are similar so the word AD could be written in wither Ad, Ath or Az.

Based on this Dan proposes that the word AD can be rendered the same as the Biblical UZ in the land of Edom. Having established this. Dan examines the Geographic identifications of Ad in the Koran and the UZ in the Bible. The Geographic descriptions from both sources have the same Geography as each other being Mountainous, high places, strongholds in rocks, deep valleys, livestock etc etc.

Another identifications is that the word Thamud can be rendered as "Those that came after Ud".

There is plenty more in Dan's book on this identification of Ad and UZ as geographically the same place.

Peter

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Re: Quranic Geography
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2012, 06:49:58 AM »
Some months ago now, I released a new book on Qur'anic Geography. In this book we examine the people of 'Ad, Tham'ud, Midian, Medina, etc., as well as the original holy city of Islam.

May as well get two threads going at the same time.

What sources of information did you use to examine the people of 'Ad?

Hi Pete

I may be able to offer a short speil on the people of AD based on Dan's research. The issue is that the people of AD is only found in Islamic literature and nowhere else. The word AD is not an Arabic one as it has no root as all Arabic words do. Dan explaines that the word is taken as a rendition of an earlier semitic language of Eber. Dan explaines that Arabic consonants can be interchanged that are similar so the word AD could be written in wither Ad, Ath or Az.

Based on this Dan proposes that the word AD can be rendered the same as the Biblical UZ in the land of Edom. Having established this. Dan examines the Geographic identifications of Ad in the Koran and the UZ in the Bible.

In order to credit the Quran you are going to have to explain how Muhammad knew about a people that lived thousands of years before him.

The Geographic descriptions from both sources have the same Geography as each other being Mountainous, high places, strongholds in rocks, deep valleys, livestock etc etc.

Ya. Like Colorado.

Another identifications is that the word Thamud can be rendered as "Those that came after Ud".

There is plenty more in Dan's book on this identification of Ad and UZ as geographically the same place.

But obviously, if even a tiny bit of his chain of wild presumption is from the Quran, then it is worthless. It is rooted in a lie. Ad as Uz smacks as the same kind of nonsense as the Baca as Bakkah, which he also made casual reference to, as if it had some sort of legitimacy, or at least without pointing out it's illegitimacy.

Dan Gibson

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Re: Quranic Geography
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2012, 12:02:44 AM »
I'm sorry I haven't been on this discussion board. I forgot my password, and then got busy with other aspects of my research and writing.

The various posts above have addressed many topics, including 'Ad, Thamud and others. In my book "Qur'anic Geography"  I give whole sections with multiple chapters to these peoples. It is impossible to discuss this material here if the readers have not read the book, and do not know what is included in the chapters. In short, the book demonstrates that Islamic 'Ad, Biblical Edom and the Egyptian Hyksos were all the same people. Muhammad knew so much about them, because he was born and raised in the land of 'Ad, and was surrounded by the ruins of 'Ad. He used them as illustrations when speaking to the people about those that went before.

I also point out that the tribes of northern Arabia between 7 century BC and 2nd century AD were collectively known by various names. Thus Arab people were labeled as "Nabataeans" after the eldest son of Ishmael, "Hagarites" after the mother of Ishmael, "Ishmaelites" after the person of Ishmael, and also Thamud, after the ancient person of that name. These all refer to the same grouping of tribes in northern Arabia that we label as Bedouin Arabs today. The word Arab is actually a Persian word.  I then look at the great Thamudic - Nabataean empire and demonstrate how Muhammad simply had to look around at the ruins of these people to illustrate his preaching on idolatry.

But what I am writing here are summaries of whole sections, with five or more chapters on each of these topics.  I believe that Muhammad was not making up lies, he was using these people as illustrations for his sermons, and from these illustrations we can learn what the worldview of the people of that time was. My book argues that we should not try and deduce if they understood something correctly or not, as we don't always know exactly what was correct ourselves, rather we should try and understand the worldview and culture of the people of Muhammad's time.

The last half of the book looks at the Arabian Qibla which pointed to Petra for many centuries, and examines many mosques from the first 100 years of Islamic history that had that qibla. This is the most interesting part of the book.

I have tried to present my arguments in a graphical format on http://searchformecca.com.  This will help people to see some of them laid out in various formats. I hope that some day we can produce a series of videos on this topic that would explain things in greater detail.

Peter

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Re: Quranic Geography
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2012, 07:39:37 AM »
I'm sorry I haven't been on this discussion board. I forgot my password,....

It's not possible for me to log back into your forum as I get the following error message when I try to recover my password:

[#10112] We could not find the member account for the name or email address you supplied. Please verify the information and resubmit the form.

..... and then got busy with other aspects of my research and writing.

If you are here for other than to bump this thread, then could you please extend to us the courtesy of responding to the replies you received to it, like beginning with the first reply to your original post at the following link. It will help to avoid confusion if you use the quote function.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2966.msg12080#msg12080
If you did come to bump this thread please see forum decorum: http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=35.0

After you reply to prior responses, perhaps you can share with us what your objective is Dan.

1. A little background might help. Do you believe that Christ was crucified, or Muhammad's gnostic profession, that is the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel?

2. To try to make Muhammad other than a false prophet thereby making the prophets of the God of the Jews and Christians false?

3. Even if your presumptions were correct, what would you hope to gain other than to get your head cut off for pointing out to 1.5 billion of Muhammad's followers, that they and all their ancestors have been praying in the wrong direction for 1400 years? (besides professing the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel for 1400 years!)

4. Tell the Saudis that they should abandon Kaaba Inc. Mecca, and their profits therefrom, and perhaps deal with the Jordanians for a lease on a new site?

PeteWaldo

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Re: Re: Quranic Geography
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2013, 05:20:21 AM »
I am having trouble understanding this software, so hopefully I will get this right.

It seems that you are having more trouble reading and responding to posts. Your posts have been sent to spam temporarily until you address the questions on the thread at the link in the prior post (that takes you to this link) http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2929.msg12076#msg12076 followed by addressing the questions in the prior post - as was requested. Then maybe we can restore your most recent posts. Again, please see forum decorum. Members are required to engage in an exchange. To be responsive to other members reply posts.

Regarding working the software:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=39.0
That link also explains how to quote, which is essential to maintain an orderly progression of our conversations. When you quote it is best to quote only that portion of the post that you are responding to. I break questions down with numbers so they can be addressed individually. No problem with breaking it down into a lot of little posts, indeed best, since each small point could result in multiple posts that follow.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Quranic Geography
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2013, 12:30:26 PM »
1. A little background might help. Do you believe that Christ was crucified, or Muhammad's gnostic profession, that is the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel?

Take this post as an example of partial quoting of a post. You claim to be a historian so surely you aren't without an answer to this question. Simply quote the question and provide an answer.