Author Topic: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?  (Read 13599 times)

Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2013, 01:11:46 PM »
Hi Peter,

Thanks for the invitation to join your religion, .......

You're welcome my friend. That's been an open invitation for almost 2,000 years now.

..... obviously you are very passionate about it (whether you understand it or not is besides the point) so I take that as a sign that you care :). I would of course have to refuse for my heart is filled with the love of the one and only God, who cares and loves me so much that He personally has assured me of direct access to Him, when ever and wherever I choose.

Then why do your brethren prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca to do so?

I come to Him walking He says and He will come running, I ask and He promises to answer, I repent and He promises forgiveness. All this and all He asks in return is I live my life here in the healthiest way possible and fulfill my duty towards my family, neighbors, community and ensure that my behavior including what I say and do is a source of benefit to them and not Harm.

I've no doubt that you try to live an upright life. Unfortunately we are all human and prone to sin. Sin, no matter how much or how little, separates us from a perfect God. That's why He offered us a solution through the shed blood of the perfect sacrifice of the spotless Lamb of God.

He admonished me against taking for a conscience other than He, be it science, my culture, emotions, desire... for that would amount to ascribing partners unto Hm or shirk. How can I not heed such a warning from one who has shown me so much love and care? How can I steep so low as to worship that which is of human creation or a figment of imagination and not honor the invitation of The Mighty, The Just, The Beneficent, The Merciful?

Now I invite you Peter to the religion of Al-Islam or The Surrender. Surrender yourself, your worries, your past, your future... to Him. You do not need an intercessor or an intermediary-YOU HAVE DIRECT ACCESS!

The question is, direct access to who, since Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel. Who really met him in that deep dark cave that made him feel like he was trying to squeeze the life out of him three times? Who could eventually deceive someone into proclaiming the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel?

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Thanks for the debate my friend.

Why did you run away from my last question my friend? Do you believe God has a Spirit as the bible and Quran teach, or not?

khalib

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2013, 02:21:45 PM »
Hi Peter,

You read a verse from the Quran that you have no idea what it means, so you give it your own meaning and than you expect me to give an answer to what is a product of your ignorance. In other words you wish to create the rules and be judge, jury and executioner at the same time. What do I say to that?

Ruh in the Quran for your information is used to refer to:

1. The Angel Gabriel

2. Knowledge or divine energy

Again for your information Ruh is always preceded by AMR, which means command, which denotes Gods intention which is absolute whether in the form of knowledge or through the Arch Angel, and must happen as in the case of the Birth of Jesus (peace be upon him). This is a whole field of knowledge that involves understanding the difference between what God intends and what He wants as well as all the attributes of knowledge and intention.

You must realize peter that ignorance is a terrible thing and it is always better to ask, understand than pass judgement. Indeed the greatest knowledge is for one to admit they do not know and are willing to learn

Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2013, 02:36:08 PM »
Hi Peter,

You read a verse from the Quran that you have no idea what it means, so you give it your own meaning and than you expect me to give an answer to what is a product of your ignorance. In other words you wish to create the rules and be judge, jury and executioner at the same time. What do I say to that?

Ruh in the Quran for your information is used to refer to:

1. The Angel Gabriel

Oh yea. "Allah's" partner.

2. Knowledge or divine energy

Again for your information Ruh is always preceded by AMR, which means command, which denotes Gods intention which is absolute whether in the form of knowledge or through the Arch Angel, and must happen as in the case of the Birth of Jesus (peace be upon him). This is a whole field of knowledge that involves understanding the difference between what God intends and what He wants as well as all the attributes of knowledge and intention.

So then you don't believe that God put something of His Spirit in you, as He does Jews and Christians, I feel so sorry for you. That also explains how you understand that ".....nothing can be more subjective than right and wrong."

Seems peculiar too:

Sura 32.9: But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!

If "Allah" didn't have a Spirit as the God of the scriptures does, then how could he breathe something of it into people?
He would first have to have a spirit, in order to be able to breathe something of it, into anyone.


Sura 16:102 Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

And here we see even Muhammad recognizing the Holy Spirit of the bible even as providing a guide.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay! Chapter #2, Verse #87

The very same Holy Spirit that Christians recognize. These verses are obviously not a reference to the angel Gabriel.
So it's becoming ever more clear just who is not understanding that God has a Spirit.

Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit.....Chapter #5, Verse #110

How are you going to try to run and hide from that, my friend?

Does God have a Spirit that He can impart into mankind or not?
If God doesn't have a Spirit to begin with, how can He impart it into anybody?
Why don't you try simply being honest with yourself this time?

You must realize peter that ignorance is a terrible thing and it is always better to ask, understand than pass judgement. Indeed the greatest knowledge is for one to admit they do not know and are willing to learn[/b]

khalib

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2013, 03:03:55 PM »
Definitely not in the way the Jews or Christians[/b] believe, which is why in this instance I deliberately used divine energy instead of Holy Spirit. By now I know you my friend. The meaning of Holy spirit that you use is not the same as we use for creation. For creation Holy spirit or ruh means divine energy. The Holy spirit as used in Christianity is closer to the ruh we believe only Prophets are strengthened with. That is why I explained to you that ruh is preceded by Amr, which denotes Gods intention in the instance it is been refereed.

Many like to suggest that the three religions are similar, something I totally disagree. In my humble opinion Judaism and Christianity have always been an element of the culture of its adherents hence, like all elements of culture they change to suite the desires of the adherents.Islam on the other hand is a way of life that produces based on laws and therefore produces culture.


Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2013, 03:06:33 PM »
Using all bold font is inefficive and only makes a post harder to read. Better to use it for emphasis.

Definitely not in the way the Jews or Christians] believe, which is why in this instance I deliberately used divine energy instead of Holy Spirit. By now I know you my friend. The meaning of Holy spirit that you use is not the same as we use for creation. For creation Holy spirit or ruh means divine energy.

Come on, my friend. Why don't you quote me the suras or verses that cite "divine energy" in the Quran or the scriptures. You are only trying to hide from the term the scriptures use, and I think we both know why.

The Holy spirit as used in Christianity is closer to the ruh we believe only Prophets are strengthened with.

That's so sad. But in any event, you just admitted that you believe that God has a Spirit that He imparts into prophets.
So you admit that you believe that God has a Spirit that He strengthens prophets with.

That is why I explained to you that ruh is preceded by Amr, which denotes Gods intention in the instance it is been refereed.

Many like to suggest that the three religions are similar, something I totally disagree. In my humble opinion Judaism and Christianity have always been an element of the culture of its adherents hence, like all elements of culture they change to suite the desires of the adherents.Islam on the other hand is a way of life that produces based on laws and therefore produces culture.

My friend, do you think God wanted you, to keep trying to obfuscate and deny, that He has a Spirit?

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2013, 03:22:56 PM »
The Holy spirit as used in Christianity is closer to the ruh we believe only Prophets are strengthened with. That is why I explained to you that ruh is preceded by Amr, which denotes Gods intention in the instance it is been refereed.

However it is you believe God manifests Himself through His Spirit, if God didn't have a Spirit, He obviously could not manifest Himself through it. Not to the prophets or in any other way.

So just because you believe that God has a Spirit, through which He manifests Himself to mankind, doesn't mean that you believe in two Gods does it?
Same for Jews and Christians.
Here are some verses that regard the Spirit of God:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2999.0

khalib

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2013, 11:57:30 PM »
Good morning Peter,

I will today take a big step and quote from your Holy Book The Bible. But please understand that I am not a scholar of the Bible so forgive my ignorance if it shows.
In the Bible it states:  “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” I believe what Christians have taken to mean by the “word” is Jesus (peace be upon him) the son of blessed Mary.
In the Quran the “word” refers to Gods command “Be” as in the following:

“She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.”

“The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.”

We were taught that prior to the creation of the universe and everything in it there was God, He who has no beginning and end, who then “commanded” the creation of the universe and everything else in it, with the “word” Be! And it was. Gods command connotes His intention, embodied in the “word” (be) which contains all the information needed for fulfilling what was intended. The “word” is as the words “clean your room” uttered as a command to a child to go tidy their room.  Ones uttered the parent need not specify what goes where or how, or hold the Childs hand to guide them through the cleaning. The child hears the words, obeys the command and tidies the room, because the child already possesses the knowledge of how to do so either through observation and/or through direct instruction from the parents. So too is the command of God, in the “word” was the knowledge of how to create the universe (s) and everything in it, just as a seed containing all information(knowledge) or DNA of a particular plant so that one’s it is planted it metamorphose into that plant. The universe and everything found in it came about through this word or knowledge which as a seed is still metamorphosing and will do so until the end of time.

We believe God manifests Himself to people through His word or creations so that they may and investigate and learn from it for their benefit as well as gain in appreciation of His majesty, Power, and love that He has for His creations, so that they may believe. It is out of love and mercy that he did not just poof bring everything into existence but rather through knowledge so that we may decipher, learn and use it to advance our living here on earth. That’s why we are able to study reproduction and come up with cloning, which has the potential of curing cancer and many other terrible illnesses.

We do not believe that God manifests Himself to the prophets or anyone through the Holy Spirit but rather strengthens them through it. See Peter, we believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) the slave of God and mercy of mankind, was sent to correct what has been corrupted from Christianity just as Jesus (peace be upon him) the miracle of God was sent to correct what had been corrupted from Judaism. This is also what I meant when I mentioned to you earlier that the two religions may use the same terms and names but are in fact very different.

Of course knowledge is with God so may He forgive any mistakes which I may have made in conveying this to you, but to find out more check Ibn Kathir’s tafsir on the topic.

Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2013, 06:11:41 AM »
I'll get to the rest of your post after this point.

We do not believe that God manifests Himself to the prophets or anyone through the Holy Spirit but rather strengthens them through it.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit gives the prophets bigger muscles? Of course not. You believe the Holy Spirit provides guidance and understanding in those prophets. So do I. You would likely even agree that the "strengthening" you are referring to is aptly described here:

Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

But the simple fact of the matter is, that just as the Quran indicates, Muhammad believed in the Holy Spirit and you yourself believe in the Holy Spirit. Thus you believe in two parts of what is referred to as the "trinity", though that terms does not occur in scripture - because it doesn't need to. You believe in God and His Spirit.

Part of the confusion comes from Muhammad apparently having been clueless as to just what the "trinity" is:

Surah 5:116 - And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Muhammad probably got his misunderstanding from Roman Catholic veneration of Mary. Which incidentally, Muslims do right alongside Roman Catholics, at "Our Lady of Fatimah" today.
Unlike Muhammad's false idea, nobody ever worshiped Mary as a god, nor does Mary have anything to do with the trinity.

But it cannot be denied that since you believe in God and that He has a Spirit - you believe in the existence of the Holy Spirit as Muhammad did - then you believe in two parts of the "godhead". Two parts of what has been dubbed the "trinity".

So to the title of this thread, you and I both believe in one God, and we both believe He has a Spirit.
Here's an example of the power of the Spirit of God:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FelW46AGu4

Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2013, 08:16:18 AM »
Good morning Peter,

I will today take a big step and quote from your Holy Book The Bible. But please understand that I am not a scholar of the Bible so forgive my ignorance if it shows.

The bible is intended to be easily understood by all those that approach it with with an open heart and a contrite spirit and pray for guidance therein, while putting their effort into understanding, as opposed to putting their effort into misunderstanding. It is difficult enough to get started, for those that stand outside the Spirit of God, without putting effort into misunderstanding:

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

In the Bible it states:  “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Let me add a little more context:

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


I believe what Christians have taken to mean by the “word” is Jesus .......

Because that is what the scriptures I just included indicate.

....... (peace be upon him) the son of blessed Mary.

You also believe He was the prophesied Messiah - the anointed one - and the only person ever to be conceived by a virgin by the will of God, remains sinless, who healed the sick and even brought the dead back to life, and ascended bodily to heaven and has no earthly grave.

Yet Muhammad prevents his followers from making a distinction between Jesus and any other prophet. Does that strike you as odd? Should we be surprised that Muhammad didn't want to be compared with the sinless Messiah, based on Muhammad's behavior as it is revealed through your own books?

In the Quran the “word” refers to Gods command “Be” as in the following:

“She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.”

“The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.”

We were taught that prior to the creation of the universe and everything in it there was God, He who has no beginning and end, ........

Another concept Muhammad plagiarized from scripture:

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

God IS the beginning and the end. Now please note the prior verse Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

........ who then “commanded” the creation of the universe and everything else in it, with the “word” Be! And it was.

That isn't accurately plagiarized. Here is one of the things God said as He created the earth:

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=1&t=KJV#3

Gods command connotes His intention, embodied in the “word” (be) which contains all the information needed for fulfilling what was intended. The “word” is as the words “clean your room” uttered as a command to a child to go tidy their room.  Ones uttered the parent need not specify what goes where or how, or hold the Childs hand to guide them through the cleaning. The child hears the words, obeys the command and tidies the room, because the child already possesses the knowledge of how to do so either through observation and/or through direct instruction from the parents. So too is the command of God, in the “word” was the knowledge of how to create the universe (s) and everything in it, just as a seed containing all information(knowledge) or DNA of a particular plant so that one’s it is planted it metamorphose into that plant. The universe and everything found in it came about through this word or knowledge which as a seed is still metamorphosing and will do so until the end of time.

We believe God manifests Himself to people through His word or creations so that they may and investigate and learn from it for their benefit as well as gain in appreciation of His majesty, Power, and love that He has for His creations, so that they may believe. It is out of love and mercy that he did not just poof bring everything into existence but rather through knowledge so that we may decipher, learn and use it to advance our living here on earth. That’s why we are able to study reproduction and come up with cloning, which has the potential of curing cancer and many other terrible illnesses.

We do not believe that God manifests Himself to the prophets or anyone through the Holy Spirit but rather strengthens them through it.

But Muslims also believe God revealed Himself to Moses, through the form a burning bush, and spoke to Moses:

"In Islam, the story of God’s encounter with Moses at the burning bush comes as
part of the larger Muslim narrative about Moses. The material on Moses in the Qur’ān is
substantial: some 36 of the Qur’ān’s 114 sūras mention Moses in 50 separate pericopes.
The episode of the burning bush appears in three different narratives. In the first
canonical account (Q20.10-48), Moses is attracted to a fire (nār) while traveling with his
family in Midian. Moses tells his family to stay behind while he goes to investigate the
fire. He adds that he hopes to bring a brand from the fire, and to find guidance there.
When he arrives at the fire, a voice calls to him: “Moses, I am your Lord; put off your
shoes; you are in the holy valley, Ṭuwā. I myself have chosen you; so listen closely to
what is inspired. Truly I am Allāh; there is no god but I; therefore serve me, and perform
the prayer of my remembrance.” (Q20.12-14)
http://quranandinjil.org/pdfs/The-Burning-Bush.pdf

Now my question is this. Is Muhammad's "Allah" powerful enough, that if he so chose to, instead of making a bush burn, could he instantly create the physical form of a man and move into the house next door to you and chat with you, while simultaneously being God in all the other respects in which you understand Him?
Could He create 10 such men and move in next door to ten different people and chat with them all at the same time, while still being entirely God?
Or is Muhammad's "Allah" too powerless to be able to say "be" and accomplish exactly that, if He so chose to?

khalib

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2013, 12:29:11 PM »
Hi Pete

Your logic astounds me!

Let me ask you this: Is your God able to decide through everybody in hell, and I mean everybody-Christians, Muslims, Babies... regardless of faith? Does He possess the power for such a decision or not?  A simple yes or no please

khalib

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2013, 12:31:17 PM »
Hi Pete

Your logic astounds me!

Let me ask you this: Is your God able to decide to  throw everybody into hell, and I mean everybody-Christians, Muslims, Babies... regardless of faith? Does He possess the power for such a decision or not?  A simple yes or no please

Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2013, 12:51:00 PM »
Hi Pete

Your logic astounds me!

It's a simple question.

Let me ask you this: Is your God able to decide to  throw everybody into hell, and I mean everybody-Christians, Muslims, Babies... regardless of faith? Does He possess the power for such a decision or not?  A simple yes or no please

The question you posed is a dichotomy, because in doing so, God would be going directly against His own Word. Going against Himself, and since He is perfect, that's not possible.

The scenario I posed would not require God to go against His Word or Himself.
So why don't you try an answer rather than ask an unrelated question instead?

God made Himself known to Moses through that burning bush, while remaining fully God the whole while He was speaking to Moses, didn't He? Doing so didn't make Him any less God, did it?

Like in the case of the burning bush, if God so chose to, could He instead reveal Himself as a man in the flesh, while at the same remaining fully God?
A yes or no answer is fine.

khalib

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2013, 01:15:28 PM »
EXACTLY: As you said you couldn't give an answer because it would go against the words given to you by God according your scripture.

For Him to take the form of a man, according to ours would be an abomination-a sin beyond any other that is unforgivable if one dies in that state, unless he or she repents and turns to the one and only lord.

As I mentioned to you earlier there is no religion that exists and that has ever existed that does not recognize the existence of the one and true God. Like you, what they claim and have always claimed is that either the spirit of God resides in the idol or image they make and worship, or that God has taken the form of what they worship. In my religion that is idolatry.

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2013, 01:23:24 PM »
EXACTLY: As you said you couldn't give an answer because it would go against the words given to you by God according your scripture.

For Him to take the form of a man.....

Let's take a look at the Torah and see who Abraham met one day:

Genesis 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

Checking Strong's definitions

And the LORD
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
03068 Y@hovah {yeh-ho-vaw'}
from 01961; TWOT - 484a; n pr dei
AV - LORD 6510, GOD 4, JEHOVAH 4, variant 1; 6519
Jehovah = "the existing One"
1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136

"LORD" translated from the Hebrew, "Jehovah" the "existing One", that is, God Himself "appeared" to Abraham.
Before the Jews surrendered to a doctrine (after Solomon's temple burned down), in which men declared that the name Yahweh was too sacred to say or write, the tetragrammaton YHWH occurred in this spot, and in 6,827 other places in Hebrew scripture. "YHWH" is the name of God.

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Three "men" stood by him.

men
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0582 'enowsh {en-oshe'}
from 0605; TWOT - 136a; n m
AV - man 520, certain 10, husbands 3, some 3, merchantmen 2,
persons 2, misc 24; 564
1) man, mortal man, person, mankind
1a) of an individual
1b) men (collective)
1c) man, mankind

So Abraham "bowed himself toward the ground,"

3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

My Lord
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0136 'Adonay {ad-o-noy'}
am emphatic form of 0113; TWOT - 27b; n m
AV - Lord 431, lord 2, God 1; 434
1) my lord, lord
1a) of men
1b) of God
2) Lord - title, spoken in place of Yahweh in Jewish display of reverence

As in the prior case with the name Jehovah substituting for Yahweh, the substitute title "Adonay" is used in this spot. It can mean Lord or lower case lord as in master. Whether Yahweh or Adonay occurred in the original Hebrew is obviously a moot point considering the context.

3 And said, My Lord, {Adonay} if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

Some suggest that the "man" in our passage was an angel but are we to believe that Abraham thought himself a "servant" of an angel, rather than Yahweh, particularly considering all the direct contact Abraham had with Yahweh?
Abraham continues....

4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

Water is not only fetched so these men can wash their feet, but Abraham offers the men food, and they accept.

8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set [it] before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

And so these men - one unquestionably being Yahweh Himself - did eat. Later in the passage we read...

22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. {Jehovah (Yaweh)} 23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

So who has the power to destroy a city of men?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that [are] therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Who was the "man", that Abraham recognized as God, that is "the Judge of all the earth"? The same one that dined.

26 And the LORD {Jehovah (Yaweh)} said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

Who had the power and authority to spare Sodom? The answer is again obvious. Abraham did not see God, but Abraham did have a face to face meeting with Yahewh as He manifest, or revealed Himself, in the flesh of a man. Just as He chose to revealed Himself through other "Christophanies" in the old testament, to Moses through a burning bush, and eventually in the person of Jesus Christ.

For Him to take the form of a man, according to ours .........

That would be according to Muhammad alone. Always being revealed as the exact opposite of the God of the bible.
We can see from the preceding that God did indeed manifest Himself in the flesh of a man to Abraham, and even ate and drank, and presumably washed His feet.

......... would be an abomination-a sin beyond any other that is unforgivable if one dies in that state, unless he or she repents and turns to the one and only lord.

Thus, according to Muhammad alone, as I pointed out previously this would mean that all Christians throughout the entirety of the last nearly 2,000 years are guilty of Muhammad's unforgivable sin.
Doesn't that begin to give you an idea as to who actually inspired Muhammad?

As I inquired earlier, do you believe a just God would suggest that praying in Jesus name, would constitute a greater sin than child rape or cold blooded mass murder?

As I mentioned to you earlier there is no religion that exists and that has ever existed that does not recognize the existence of the one and true God. Like you, what they claim and have always claimed is that either the spirit of God resides in the idol or image they make and worship, or that God has taken the form of what they worship. In my religion that is idolatry.

It's so sad that you want to stay outside the spirit of God, even as you understand that the Holy Spirit strengthened the prophets. :(

khalib

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2013, 10:17:08 AM »
Food For Thought

After a heated exchange between Jesus and a group of aggressive Pharisees, in which the latter accuses by implication the former of being “born of fornication” (John 8:41), Jesus unleashes a whirlwind rebuttal culminating with the claim “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58). The enraged Jews, apparently having no interest in the Law’s due process, are immediately compelled to pick up stones and deal with the gross blasphemer themselves. Alas, Jesus slips through the very midst of them and so “passed by” unharmed (John 8:59). It is interesting to note that before Jesus drives his final nail in the proverbial Pharisaic coffin, so to speak, he stated that Abraham rejoiced to see his (Jesus’) day, and when he saw it, he was glad (John 8:56). The Jews retort by reminding the young Nazarene that he had not even reached his fiftieth year, how could he have seen Abraham? – A man who strutted the earth eighteen centuries earlier. The problem in obvious: Jesus never said that he had seen Abraham, but only that Abraham had seen his, meaning Jesus’, day. This misunderstanding, however, is summarily overshadowed by the next verse in which Jesus ostensibly claims to possess ontological precedence over the ancient Patriarch of the Jews, hence the ensuing provocation to pick up stones.
Both the Jews, as well as the vast majority of Christian theologians, since the composition of the Fourth Gospel have qualified this statement as a claim of deity made by Jesus. John, however, who is no doubt extremely versed in the Septuagint, chose not to include in the proclamation of Christ the crucial second half of the statement given to Moses by God in Exodus chapter three at the burning bush, where the Hebrew is translated ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν, meaning literally, “I am He who is.” John tells his audience that Jesus only said, “πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί” (Before Abraham was I am), without the highly mystical ὁ ὤν, which consists of the masculine singular nominative article and the nominative active participle of εἰμί.

In other words, John elects to leave off the divine aspect of Exodus 3:14, namely “The one who is,” thus causing Jesus to fall noticeably short of possessing absolute pre-eternal existence. Jesus did exist in some capacity before Abraham, but not in an absolute or essential sense, or as the followers of the anathematized Arius (256 – 336 CE)10 used to proclaim “ayn pote hote ouk ayn” meaning “there was a time when he was not.” Arius affirmed Christ’s “pre-existence” in relative terms and said that the Son’s causal subordination (from Origen of Alexandria, d. 253 CE) became also the Son’s temporal subordination and essential inferiority.11 Certainly Arius knew of Jesus’ statement in John but was simply not convinced that it constituted a divine claim. Hence the above Muslim exegesis of John 8:58 finds unmistakably established precedence in pre-Islamic times, amongst the very group which prompted Constantine to call the first ever ecumenical Synod no less.
In addition to this, the fact that John’s three evangelical predecessors do not even record the statement yet are very intent on informing their readers about Jesus’ choice of conveyance while entering Jerusalem, has led many scholars of the New Testament, Bart Ehrman included, to conclude that the authenticity of such so-called “I am statements” are highly suspect. Jesus riding a donkey into Jerusalem certainly fulfilled ancient prophecy, but I cannot possibly imagine why Matthew, a supposed ear and eye-witness to Christ, would not record any of the crucial Johannine “divine” claims of Jesus if in fact the latter made such statements.

Copied from: "Prophet Muhammed In The Bible", By Ali Ataei. Available free





Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2013, 10:50:06 AM »
Food For Thought
Indeed.
After a heated exchange between Jesus and a group of aggressive Pharisees, in which the latter accuses by implication the former of being “born of fornication” (John 8:41), Jesus unleashes a whirlwind rebuttal culminating with the claim “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58). The enraged Jews, apparently having no interest in the Law’s due process, are immediately compelled to pick up stones and deal with the gross blasphemer themselves.

Read it khalib, it has nothing to do with his "having no interest in the Law's due process". Nor would that be a stoning offense. That's ridiculous! They wanted to stone Jesus for the blasphemy of declaring his divinity. He not only declared that He was from before Abraham, but that He is the "I AM". That is how the name of the the existent one, God's name translates:

Exd 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

God's name is found in the tetragrammaton YHWH, which means I AM. The name of the one true God of the scriptures has never been, and will never be, the name of the Arabian pagan's deity "Allah". Nor does "Allah" mean "I AM" in Arabic or any other language. Regardless of what misguided Arabic speaking Christians might have been fooled into parroting from the Van Dyke bible.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2613.0

Alas, Jesus slips through the very midst of them and so “passed by” unharmed (John 8:59). It is interesting to note that before Jesus drives his final nail in the proverbial Pharisaic coffin, so to speak, he stated that Abraham rejoiced to see his (Jesus’) day, and when he saw it, he was glad (John 8:56). The Jews retort by reminding the young Nazarene that he had not even reached his fiftieth year, how could he have seen Abraham? – A man who strutted the earth eighteen centuries earlier. The problem in obvious: Jesus never said that he had seen Abraham, but only that Abraham had seen his, meaning Jesus’, day. This misunderstanding, however, is summarily overshadowed by the next verse in which Jesus ostensibly claims to possess ontological precedence over the ancient Patriarch of the Jews, hence the ensuing provocation to pick up stones.
Both the Jews, as well as the vast majority of Christian theologians, since the composition of the Fourth Gospel have qualified this statement as a claim of deity made by Jesus. John, however, who is no doubt extremely versed in the Septuagint, chose not to include in the proclamation of Christ the crucial second half of the statement given to Moses by God in Exodus chapter three at the burning bush, where the Hebrew is translated ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν, meaning literally, “I am He who is.” John tells his audience that Jesus only said, “πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί” (Before Abraham was I am), without the highly mystical ὁ ὤν, which consists of the masculine singular nominative article and the nominative active participle of εἰμί.

From John's prophetic vision in Revelation:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=570.0

In other words, John elects to leave off the divine aspect of Exodus 3:14, namely “The one who is,” thus causing Jesus to fall noticeably short of possessing absolute pre-eternal existence.

Filthy liar with mouth full of blasphemy.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

The "one" in that verse is in the neuter gender, meaning of one essence. That's why the Jews wanted to stone Him again for the blasphemy of again declaring His divinity.

Jesus did exist in some capacity before Abraham, but not in an absolute or essential sense, or as the followers of the anathematized Arius (256 – 336 CE)10 used to proclaim “ayn pote hote ouk ayn” meaning “there was a time when he was not.” Arius affirmed Christ’s “pre-existence” in relative terms and said that the Son’s causal subordination (from Origen of Alexandria, d. 253 CE) became also the Son’s temporal subordination and essential inferiority.11 Certainly Arius knew of Jesus’ statement in John but was simply not convinced that it constituted a divine claim. Hence the above Muslim exegesis of John 8:58 finds unmistakably established precedence in pre-Islamic times, amongst the very group which prompted Constantine to call the first ever ecumenical Synod no less.
In addition to this, the fact that John’s three evangelical predecessors do not even record the statement yet are very intent on informing their readers about Jesus’ choice of conveyance while entering Jerusalem, has led many scholars of the New Testament, Bart Ehrman included, to conclude that the authenticity of such so-called “I am statements” are highly suspect.

Nothing more than Greek Sophist styled antichrist Islamic lies.
And "I AM" is invoked in even in lots more instances regarding "I AM" than are even recognized by many Christians from English translations:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=108.0

(KJV) John 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.    6  As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Why do you suppose Jesus declaring "I AM" would cause a tenth part of a legion of soldiers to fall over backwards?
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=108.msg4729#msg4729

Greek sophist styled entertainers tickling your eyes and ears, just like the famous blaspheming antichrist Ahmed Deedat. Was Deedat correct, or lying, when he said that the First Epistle of John indicates that Muhammad was not antichrist? Let's explore it together.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=335.0

Jesus riding a donkey into Jerusalem certainly fulfilled ancient prophecy, but I cannot possibly imagine why Matthew, a supposed ear and eye-witness to Christ, would not record any of the crucial Johannine “divine” claims of Jesus if in fact the latter made such statements.

Copied from: "Prophet Muhammed In The Bible", By Ali Ataei. Available free

Your own blasphemy against the one true God is quite enough. And rather than just sit and nod your head to a foolish pack of lies by Islamist sophists, regarding the things of the Spirit of the one true God of the scriptures you know little to nothing about, I recommend you seek out truth and google up some Christian bible commentators to compare it to.
DO NOT waste our mutual time by copy and pasting the lies and blasphemy against the scriptures of others. Include only that which you are willing and able to defend yourself. Such tripe going forward will simply be sent off to spam.

I'll give you an example in the next post.

Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2013, 11:06:31 AM »
For example I wrote and can defend the following:

See Peter, we believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) the slave of God and mercy of mankind, was sent to correct what has been corrupted from Christianity just as Jesus (peace be upon him) the miracle of God was sent to correct what had been corrupted from Judaism.

Yet you have only one reason for speaking that blasphemy against the one true God and His scriptures, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses in His 1600 year record, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years.
That reason is Muhammad alone. The stand-alone word of a 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling imperialistic murderer.
Who was further embellished by Islam's 8th - 10th century Islamic "tradition" creators.

We can know absolutely that Islam is false, not only because Muhammad's 23 year 7th century record proclaims the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel, but it is also absolutely unsupportable in the light of scripture, history, archaeology or geography.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?board=56.0

This while the one God and His scriptures that you blaspheme, are well supported by history, archaeology, geography and even mathematically. Truth supported by truth and matters of fact.

This is also what I meant when I mentioned to you earlier that the two religions may use the same terms and names .......

That's false. The name of the one true God of the Scriptures is found in the tetragrammaton "YHWH", as it occurs nearly 7,000 times in scripture and in paleo-Hebrew engravings found, that date as early as 840 BC. In English it means "I AM" or the existent one.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2640.0

"Allah" does not mean "I AM" in Arabic or any other language, however the etymology of the name "Allah" suggests it was the name of Arabian pagan's moon god:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2265.0

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

..... but are in fact very different.

Far beyond "very different". Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel. This is how we can know that he was inspired by Satan - the opposer of God. Same spirit that met Muhammad in a cave and nearly squeezed the life out of him three times.

Same spirit behind the murder, mayhem, misery and terrorism Muhammad commanded, that has been perpetrated around the world for 1400 years, by his true followers. Over 20,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world, just since 9-11, by the true followers of one of the most consummate, and self- admitted terrorists in the history of mankind:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=731.0

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Muhammad was the exact opposite of the sinless Messiah.

Bukhari:V5B59N459 "I entered the Mosque, saw Abu, sat beside him and asked about sex. Abu Said said, 'We went out with Allah's Apostle and we received female slaves from among the captives. We desired women and we loved to do coitus interruptus.'"

If your tendency is to accuse folks of "insulting Muhammad", we can see that it is your own books that do so. I merely point it out.
Muhammad commanded of his followers the exact opposite as that of Jesus:

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Muhammad's followers prostrate themselves five times a day toward the very same black stone idol that the Quraish pagans venerated before Muhammad ever invented Islam.
Exactly what the one true God of the Jews and Christians prohibits His followers from doing.
Muhammad's followers are even compelled to travel to that black stone idol, and march around it 7 times as the pagan Arabian moon, sun, and star worshipers did, and even run back and forth between al-Safa and al-Marwah 7 times as the Arabian jinn-devil worshipers did.
Even some of Muhammad's closest followers hated performing the Sa'ee because they knew it was a purely pagan ritual:

Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158) (Sahih al-Bukhari 2 Book 26 710)
http://brotherpete.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

And as the verse itself indicates, the only reason Muhammad's followers engage in his thinly veneered pagan idol rituals - 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs - is because Muhammad told his followers to.

Of course knowledge is with God so may He forgive any mistakes which I may have made in conveying this to you, but to find out more check Ibn Kathir’s tafsir on the topic.

If you had remained ignorant to the truth, as perhaps your parents may remain, you may well have been better off. But you are beyond "mistakes" and instead preaching blasphemy against the one true God of the scriptures of Jews and Christians.

Now you said that the reason Muhammad told Christians to go by what is revealed in the Gospel is because Muhammad was prophesied in it.

I realize the reason he said that is because it was accompanied by all the rest of the drivel of his early Mecca days, and there was lots more he regretted saying that had to be recanted later like "no compulsion in religion", since a doctrine of abrogation is required for a whopping 71 out of only 114 Suras.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=116.0

Why don't you present an example of where Muhammad is prophesied in the Gospel. We have exposed many more examples of this Greek sophist styled nonsense, in another forum section:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?board=33.0

Or try this link:
"A Bible Commentary for Muslims"
http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/index.html

khalib

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2013, 12:46:06 PM »
When filmmaker Mel Gibson prepared his script for his film “The Passion of the Christ,” he must have found the Pshitta’s82 translation of Paraclete as “Paraqlayta” problematic for obvious reasons. It would have been awkward for an Aramaic-speaking Jesus, in the midst of a discourse with his Jewish disciples, to use a recognizable Greek word with a Semitic twist. He rather opted for the translation as it occurs in the Syriac lectionaries used by the Assyrian churches in Iraq, also known as the Ancient Apostolic Church of the East. In these texts, the word for Paraclete is rendered “Munahma,” which according to author Karen Armstrong, may be equivalent to the Arabic Ahmad, and certainly sounds as if they are derived from a common root. Therefore, the scene as it occurs in the film has “Jesus” say, “Do not be afraid, the Helper (Munahma) will come, who speaks the truth about God (Allah).” Nineteenth century Scottish orientalist William Muir, who once said that Islam is the “only undisguised and formidable antagonist of Christianity,” claimed in his book “The Life of Mahomet” that there were Arabic translations of the Gospel of John from the eighth and ninth centuries CE that translated Paraclete as “Ahmad,” albeit erroneously according to Muir.
In John 16:7, Jesus makes it clear that the coming of the Paraclete is directly contingent upon his (Jesus’) departure: “ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ ἀπέλθω ὁ παράκλητος οὐκ ἐλεύσεται πρὸς ὑμᾶς” (For if I do not go, the Paraclete will not come unto you). This is interesting because the orthodox has consistently told us that the Paraclete and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. But if the Paraclete and the Holy Spirit is essentially the same person, are we then to suppose that Jesus and his disciples were completely devoid of him? The Gospel of Luke tells us that the Holy Spirit was with Elizabeth (1:41), John the Baptist (1:15), Zacharias (1:67), as well as with Simeon (2:25). All of these people chronologically predated Jesus Christ, yet the latter says clearly in John that the Paraclete had not yet arrived.

The Synod at Constantinople in 381 CE testifies to the fact that the early Christian church also found the Johannine readings about the Paraclete problematic and thus attempted to better define his nature and function. The most crucial verdict arrived at by the bishops of the Council was undoubtedly the judgment that the Holy Spirit was co-equal, co-eternal, and co-substantial with the Father and Son and therefore fully God, the third person of a triune deity. The old Nicene Creed hammered out over fifty years earlier was revised and the Niceo Constantinopolitan Creed was born. The bishops proposed a creative solution to the problem of the apparent incongruities between the Holy Spirit and the Paraclete of the Fourth Gospel. The Cappadocian Fathers, representing the orthodox findings, concluded that the Holy Spirit possesses the divine attribute of pre-eternality, meaning that he eternally proceeds from the Father (and scandalously from the Son as well [filioque] in the Western churches), but is also sent to the earth at certain times in history. In other words, the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds but is also economically sent.

Therefore, when Jesus speaks of the Paraclete coming after his departure, he is simply referring to the coming of the Spirit to the physical world in temporal terms, and just as the Son was eternally begotten by God before the creation of time and matter, yet economically sent into the world over two thousand years ago, the Holy Spirit also pre-existed and was sent, not once, but many times into the world. This solution, however, still fails to adequately account for the presence of the Holy Spirit before and during the ministry of Christ. When Jesus made the conditional statement recorded by John in 16:7, the Paraclete was clearly not with him on earth yet apparently accompanied his cousin John the Baptist and his mother Elizabeth. This also creates a major problem when trying to reconcile the Augustinian orthodox notion that the presence of the Son necessitates the presence of the Father and Holy Spirit and that all three persons are inseparable in their actions. The intercommunion of the three persons “guarantees the involvement (of all three).”

The theological gymnastics of the early orthodox, as well as the vastly diverse opinions regarding the nature of Christ during the first four centuries of the Common Era, demonstrate the obvious and painful truth that the deficiencies lie in the scriptures themselves. There are over 5,500 manuscripts of the New Testament in Greek, from credit-card sized John Ryland’s papyrus number 52 (P52) to the vast א01, but no two of these manuscripts are identical. John Mill’s 1707 CE attempt at an eclectic text of the Greek New Testament led him to state in his primitive apparatus that he found over 30,000 differences in the one hundred or so manuscripts that he had at this disposal. The irreconcilable Christologies of the synoptic evangelists coupled with John’s Logos simply render it impossible to arrive at a coherent and consistent profession of Christian faith. Even a theologian as early as Origen of Alexandria (d. 254 CE) once complained:
“The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please” (emphasis mine).

Consider also Origen’s Pagan opponent, Celsus, and Dionysius, the orthodox bishop of Corinth (d. circa 171 CE) who said respectively: “Some believers, as though from a drinking bout, go so far as to oppose themselves and alter the original text of the gospel three or four or several times over, and they change its character to enable them to deny difficulties in the face of criticism.” “When my fellow-Christians invited me to write to them I did so. These the devil’s apostles have filled with tares, taking away some things and adding others. For them the woe is reserved. Small wonder then if some have dared to tamper even with the word of the Lord himself, when they have conspired to mutilate my own humble efforts.”

John 16:13 reads: ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς εἰς πάσαν τῆν ἀληθείαν οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφ᾽ ἑαυτοῦ ἀλλ᾽ ὅσα ἂν ἀκούσῃ λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν “However when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.”


Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2013, 12:52:06 PM »
Do you treat all your vows like this? When you joined you agreed to engage in an exchange. I replied to your post, yet you did not reply to mine. Though you are following in the footsteps of Muhammad:

"If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, then you should expiate your oath and do what is better."
Sahih Bukhari 9:89:260
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=950.0

Also, you apparently missed this:

DO NOT waste our mutual time by copy and pasting the lies and blasphemy against the scriptures of others. Include only that which you are willing and able to defend yourself. Such tripe going forward will simply be sent off to spam.

I'll give you an example in the next post.

Indicating that you didn't even read my replies to you. You are required to engage in an exchange. Please start at the top of my reply and offer substantive responses to the content of both of those posts. I defended the scriptures and the one true God that inspired them. Let's see if you can defend Muhammad and his 23 year 7th century record and the hadith with other than nonsense and lies.

Why don't you start with something like listing all the reasons you believe Muhammad other than he told his followers to believe him.

khalib

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2013, 01:28:56 PM »
Hi Pete,

Apparently I have hit a nerve, but I just thought that since your so fond of quoting form the scriptures of others, (even though it is glaringly clear you haven't a clue to the meaning of what you are quoting), I would play along. You insist that I have committed blasphemy, but you should realize in my eyes you too have been commuting blasphemy.

Now, instead of addressing my post, you ask that I stop the quotes from the Bible, yet at the same time you want me to respond to your flagrantly ignorant quotes from my Nobel Book?!!!!

How does that work?

Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2013, 01:30:34 PM »
So now you turn to Hollywood? This is why I told you I didn't want to waste our mutual time with this kind of garbage. Don't do it again. You can get replies to this trash in the links of my prior post without having to waste my time with it.

"We have exposed many more examples of this Greek sophist styled nonsense, in another forum section:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?board=33.0
Or try this link:
"A Bible Commentary for Muslims"
http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/index.html"

Or do a search of this forum like - comforter - in the window in the upper right hand corner.

You effortlessly copy and pasting another person's foolishness, while I am stuck having to spend my time showing you how you've been duped.

When filmmaker Mel Gibson prepared his script for his film “The Passion of the Christ,” he must have found the Ps**tta’s82 translation of Paraclete as “Paraqlayta” problematic for obvious reasons. It would have been awkward for an Aramaic-speaking Jesus, in the midst of a discourse with his Jewish disciples, to use a recognizable Greek word with a Semitic twist. He rather opted for the translation as it occurs in the Syriac lectionaries used by the Assyrian churches in Iraq, also known as the Ancient Apostolic Church of the East. In these texts, the word for Paraclete is rendered “Munahma,” which according to author Karen Armstrong, may be equivalent to the Arabic Ahmad, ........

That is ridiculous since the Arabic language was so new to the scene it didn't even have a written form until a few centuries into the Christian era!
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2561.0

...... and certainly sounds as if they are derived from a common root.

Now there's an etymological study! Like 7th century Arabic "Bakkah" "sounds as if" it has something to do with the Hebrew "Baca" of a thousand years before Arabic was invented! You've gobbled down a pile of pure hogwash, my friend.
http://brotherpete.com/baca_mecca.htm

Therefore, the scene as it occurs in the film has “Jesus” say, “Do not be afraid, the Helper (Munahma) will come, who speaks the truth about God (Allah).” Nineteenth century Scottish orientalist William Muir, who once said that Islam is the “only undisguised and formidable antagonist of Christianity,” ........

Indeed. This is how we can know it is of Satan, as I keep patiently explaining to you. Who is the antagonist of God? You follow the false prophet Muhammad alone, even in thinly veneered Arabian pagan moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals. "Formidable" only because of the power of the sword and a willingness of Muhammad's followers to slaughter innocents.

........ claimed in his book “The Life of Mahomet” that there were Arabic translations of the Gospel of John from the eighth and ninth centuries CE that translated Paraclete as “Ahmad,” albeit erroneously according to Muir.

Erroneously would no doubt be correct, however discussion of an Arabic translation is irrelevant.

In John 16:7, Jesus makes it clear that the coming of the Paraclete is directly contingent upon his (Jesus’) departure: “ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ ἀπέλθω ὁ παράκλητος οὐκ ἐλεύσεται πρὸς ὑμᾶς” (For if I do not go, the Paraclete will not come unto you). This is interesting because the orthodox has consistently told us that the Paraclete and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.

Gee, I wonder why?

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, (paraklētos) [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You can see that your whole inverted pyramid of preposterous pile-on presumption just went right out the window, through a single verse of scripture. Making it a filthy lie to suggest Muhammad is the comforter. Or any kind of comforter of anyone other than Satan!

Jesus healed the lame so they could walk.
Mohammed brought lameness to the walking. "...they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off."
Jesus brought sight to the blind.
Mohammed brought blindness to the seeing. "...he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes..."
Jesus brought the dead back to life.
Mohammed killed the living.

Besides which it is the epitome of absurdity and a conspicuously Satanic lie, to suggest that a false prophet who proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel, could be prophesied in that very same Gospel as anything other than a false prophet.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Let alone the thin ice that it puts all such liars on:

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

See how Islam is always the opposite? As your article put it the "antagonist of Christianity". Who is the antagonist of God? How do you not get that it is necessarily Satan that is behind the false prophet Muhammad?
But if the Paraclete and the Holy Spirit is essentially the same person, are we then to suppose that Jesus and his disciples were completely devoid of him?

Jesus was the Apostles comforter while He was with them, who were walking in the Spirit of God. And just like it says, it is the Holy Spirit as sent in Jesus', name after He left them.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

How could Muhammad comfort and teach the Apostles all things, and help them remember things, when he wasn't born until over 500 years later?

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Not leave them comfortless for one minute, let alone 500 years!

The Holy Spirit in Jesus name! Praying in Jesus name.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The very thing that Satan convinced you would constitute the ONLY unforgivable sin! A sin worse than mass murder or child rape. What could be more unjust than that?!! The very thing that makes you want to stay outside of the Holy Spirit and adamantly reject it.


Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Are we to believe that the world "seeth him not" perhaps because Mohammed wasn't going to be born for 500 years?
The world knoweth not Muhammad because he wasn't going to come for 500 years?
How did the apostles "know" Mohammed?
How did Mohammed "dwelleth with" the Apostles 500 years before he was born?
How was Mohammed to be IN THE APOSTLES? Let alone 500 years before He was born.

http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=178.msg607#msg607

As if Muhammad had anything to do with truth when he proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel. You need to quit this foolishness, and leave the lies you have been victim of, and ask Jesus for help in overcoming like this guy did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FelW46AGu4

The Gospel of Luke tells us that the Holy Spirit was with Elizabeth (1:41), John the Baptist (1:15), Zacharias (1:67), as well as with Simeon (2:25). All of these people chronologically predated Jesus Christ, yet the latter says clearly in John that the Paraclete had not yet arrived.

Not "another Comforter", in Jesus name, because He had not yet left.

The Synod at Constantinople in 381 CE testifies to the fact that the early Christian church also found the Johannine readings about the Paraclete problematic and thus attempted to better define his nature and function. The most crucial verdict arrived at by the bishops of the Council was undoubtedly the judgment that the Holy Spirit was co-equal, co-eternal, and co-substantial with the Father and Son and therefore fully God, the third person of a triune deity. The old Nicene Creed hammered out over fifty years earlier was revised and the Niceo Constantinopolitan Creed was born. The bishops proposed a creative solution to the problem of the apparent incongruities between the Holy Spirit and the Paraclete of the Fourth Gospel. The Cappadocian Fathers, representing the orthodox findings, concluded that the Holy Spirit possesses the divine attribute of pre-eternality, meaning that he eternally proceeds from the Father (and scandalously from the Son as well [filioque] in the Western churches), but is also sent to the earth at certain times in history. In other words, the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds but is also economically sent.

Therefore, when Jesus speaks of the Paraclete coming after his departure, he is simply referring to the coming of the Spirit to the physical world in temporal terms, and just as the Son was eternally begotten by God before the creation of time and matter, yet economically sent into the world over two thousand years ago, the Holy Spirit also pre-existed and was sent, not once, but many times into the world. This solution, however, still fails to adequately account for the presence of the Holy Spirit before and during the ministry of Christ. When Jesus made the conditional statement recorded by John in 16:7, the Paraclete was clearly not with him on earth yet apparently accompanied his cousin John the Baptist and his mother Elizabeth. This also creates a major problem when trying to reconcile the Augustinian orthodox notion that the presence of the Son necessitates the presence of the Father and Holy Spirit and that all three persons are inseparable in their actions. The intercommunion of the three persons “guarantees the involvement (of all three).”

The theological gymnastics of the early orthodox, as well as the vastly diverse opinions regarding the nature of Christ during the first four centuries of the Common Era, demonstrate the obvious and painful truth that the deficiencies lie in the scriptures themselves. There are over 5,500 manuscripts of the New Testament in Greek, from credit-card sized John Ryland’s papyrus number 52 (P52) to the vast א01, but no two of these manuscripts are identical. John Mill’s 1707 CE attempt at an eclectic text of the Greek New Testament led him to state in his primitive apparatus that he found over 30,000 differences in the one hundred or so manuscripts that he had at this disposal. The irreconcilable Christologies of the synoptic evangelists coupled with John’s Logos simply render it impossible to arrive at a coherent and consistent profession of Christian faith. Even a theologian as early as Origen of Alexandria (d. 254 CE) once complained:
“The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please” (emphasis mine).

Consider also Origen’s Pagan opponent, Celsus, and Dionysius, the orthodox bishop of Corinth (d. circa 171 CE) who said respectively: “Some believers, as though from a drinking bout, go so far as to oppose themselves and alter the original text of the gospel three or four or several times over, and they change its character to enable them to deny difficulties in the face of criticism.” “When my fellow-Christians invited me to write to them I did so. These the devil’s apostles have filled with tares, taking away some things and adding others. For them the woe is reserved. Small wonder then if some have dared to tamper even with the word of the Lord himself, when they have conspired to mutilate my own humble efforts.”

John 16:13 reads: ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς εἰς πάσαν τῆν ἀληθείαν οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφ᾽ ἑαυτοῦ ἀλλ᾽ ὅσα ἂν ἀκούσῃ λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν “However when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.”

You can see how this whole pile of foolishness crashed and burned, in the light of a single verse - John 14:26. A verse regarding the paraklētos - the whole subject of the article - that they conveniently failed to mention. Laughably even suggested it's the church that doesn't understand!
"This is interesting because the orthodox has consistently told us that the Paraclete and the Holy Spirit are one and the same."

The very same subterfuge used by the famous Greek sophist styled entertainer and lying antichrist deceiver Ahmed Deedat, that duped so many, so tragically.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=335.0
The same subterfuge employed by no shortage of other Muhammadans engaged in taqiyyah.

Can you see how you got duped by a liar?

How do you suppose God will deal with a liar like the one that penned that? What if he should die in a car crash tomorrow, in that unrepentant state?

Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2013, 01:36:03 PM »
Hi Pete,

Apparently I have hit a nerve, .......

Don't be silly. What you did was make demands of my time, without investing any of your own, while breaking the rules you agreed to uphold when you joined the forum. Refresher at this link:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=35.0
I answered your last post anyway. But there is no need to waste my time like that when you can easily get answers without turning to Hollywood.

....... but I just thought that since your so fond of quoting form the scriptures of others, (even though it is glaringly clear you haven't a clue to the meaning of what you are quoting), ........

Then why not explain it? Respond to my replies.

....... I would play along. You insist that I have committed blasphemy, .......

It isn't about what I say, my friend. It is what is revealed through all of the prophets and witnesses in the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind, that His people have followed through two covenants, for 3500 years.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
                           
1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
                     
2Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.   

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

...... but you should realize in my eyes you too have been commuting blasphemy.

How can a follower of the one true God of the scriptures avoid it? What you see as my "blasphemy" is against a single, stand-alone, 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling false prophet who himself blasphemed the one true God of the scriptures and His Son, my Savior, Jesus Christ.
Muhammad having proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel. The only anti-a-specific-religion cult on earth. The "antagonist of Christianity".

Blasphemy in your eyes because you have put your faith in Muhammad alone. If you disagree with that then please explain how you follow something other that Muhammad's words alone. Indeed the only reason you have to believe they are "Allah's" words is because Muhammad said they were. Not a single witness ever heard "Allah" or Gabriel give Muhammad a single "revelation". You put your trust in Muhammad alone - even though he proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel.

Now, instead of addressing my post, ......

I had already addressed your post before I read this.

...... you ask that I stop the quotes from the Bible, ........

That's false. I would be happy for you to quote the bible because that means you are reading the bible. I asked you to quit lazily copy and pasting the Greek sophist styled nonsense of others that you cannot defend. Try thinking for yourself.

....... yet at the same time you want me to respond to your flagrantly ignorant quotes ........

At least we both agree those quotes are flagrantly ignorant! But rather than making empty claims, why not defend what I quoted?

...... from my Nobel Book?!!!!

Far from "Nobel" it is the demonic revelation of Satan himself. The exact opposite of the Gospel:

Quran Sura 9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Of course that's a filthy satanic lie to suggest that the Gospel binds anyone to fight and slay others, since we are commanded to love our enemies, yet it is a promise binding on Muhammad's followers.

"Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari" page 580
Chapter 2. The best among the people is that believer who strives his utmost in Allah's Cause with both his life and property.
footnotes:
[1] "Al-Jihad (the holy fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of number and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior, [His Word being La ilaha ill-Allah (which means: none has the right to be worshipped by Allah] and His Religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; there honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.

How does that work?

It works fine for me. Now why don't you uphold your agreement and personally respond, to the posts I spent so much time personally constructing?

Rather than being so unfair, and lazily copy and pasting, you could have gone here:
http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/index.html
And quickly found:
John 14:16 - Who is the "Comforter"?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/comforter.htm
or here
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?board=33.0
Or done a search of this forum - comforter - or asked me who the Comforter is. I could have explained it to you rather than your posting the buffoonery that you did. I am very open to honest and sincere inquiry, and not surprisingly put off by copy and pasted blasphemy.

When you copy and paste another person's foolishness it becomes your own foolishness. You own it. Their blasphemy becomes your blasphemy. Yet you can see the whole false premise you copy and pasted, went down with a single verse. John 14:26. A verse regarding the paraclete that they conveniently failed to mention. Can you see how they duped you?

Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2013, 04:44:14 AM »
You put your faith in Muhammad alone. You put your trust in Muhammad alone. You follow the words of Muhammad alone. You follow Muhammad because Muhammad told his followers to follow him - or get their heads cut off as renegades and apostates.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2656.0
This even as we can see in the prior posts how he is revealed through your own books, and so far I have gone easy on you.

So then since Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel, do you follow Muhammad alone because of the rich history of Mecca? It can't be that because there is no evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1138.0

Is it the extensive archaeological record of Mecca? Can't be that because there is no archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before pagan immigrants from Yemen settled the area in about the 4th century AD.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1132.0

Is it the geographical location of Mecca? It can't be that because Mecca is located across 1200 kilometers of harsh desert from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs. Abraham's travels never took him to within 1,000 kilometers of Mecca, and there was no overland route along the Red Sea in Arabia until most of a millennium after Abraham walked the earth.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=3416.0

Is it the ancient kaaba? Can't hardly be that since Mecca never existed, let alone that the Quraish pagan's kaaba was built in the early 5th century for Arabian Star Family worship, about 666 nautical miles from where the one true God of the scriptures, had His people build His temple.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/#temple

So you believe in the words of Muhammad alone, even though all of the available evidence suggests, it is an anti-a-specific-religion cult that follows the stand-alone words of a single 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling murderous imperialistic conqueror. Islam is antichrist.

You follow Muhammad even though 1/4 of the bible is prophecy, with much of it fulfilled, including the whole subject of the Gospel that was prophesied in the scriptures so many hundreds of years before that event:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm

You follow Muhammad alone, even though the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind through all of His prophets and witnesses, that His people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years, is ever increasingly supported by history, archaeology, geography and even mathematically.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?board=68.0
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm

Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2013, 04:08:28 PM »
You have mostly responded to my previous post by using quotes from the bible, in what I believe is an effort to support your point of view. The problem with that though is as much as I respect the Bible and value my relationship with many good people who are Christians, I don’t believe the Bible is anywhere close to been the Word of God, just as am sure you also don’t believe what I believe in is anywhere even close to the words of God, so how can you use what I don’t believe in to respond to my points?

And after blaspheming the Word of God while deluding yourself with unctuous platitudes like "as much as I respect the Bible" which is preposterous lie since you believe the exact opposite of its whole subject, we can see how God weighs in:

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

So since Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel, and because of your faith in him you reject the scriptures of the one truth God YHWH, you were instead given a chance to explain why you believe solely Muhammad's words for other reasons, like history, archaeology, and geography, but were then rendered mute. Perhaps this is because it should have become as apparent to you, as to anyone with the remotest ability to engage in critical thought, that it is the exact opposite of the one true God, that you in fact follow. Your epic failure to support Muhammad's words even after you amusingly wrote:

In fact how can even God expect us to believe in what does not make sense and is illogical on the basis of faith? That would be injustice for it is He who created us to think with our minds and not heart. The way to the heart is through the mind; which is why information or knowledge based on logic increases ones faith and information that is illogical, but still accepted through faith is fanaticism. Fanaticism means we are guided by our emotions and desires, instead of God conscience

Can you defend your faith based on reason and invite people to accept salvation through your faith through the same?

Can you see how your mind has been rendered dysfunctional, even as you describe your faith in Muhammad alone, let alone his flying donkey-mule, as if it were logical to do so. Satan even compels you to believe that all Christians over the last nearly 2,000 years are guilty of Muhammad's - and thus obviously Satan's - only unforgivable sin. Guiltier of worse sin than Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan, the Mufti of Jerusalem and the false prophet Muhammad himself.

EXACTLY: As you said you couldn't give an answer because it would go against the words given to you by God according your scripture.

For Him to take the form of a man, according to ours would be an abomination-a sin beyond any other that is unforgivable if one dies in that state, unless he or she repents and turns to the one and only lord.

You mean "repents and turns to" Muhammad alone.
I showed you exactly how YHWH revealed Himself to Abraham in the flesh of a man, so many centuries before He did so, in the person of His Son our Savior the Prince of Peace.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=3485.msg14555#msg14555
Can't even you begin to see that only an entirely unjust and opposite "god" named Satan would suggest that praying in Jesus name at any time and in any direction one chooses to an omnipresent God, would be a sin worse than child rape or cold blooded mass murder, while praying in the name of the Arabian pagan's deity "Allah" while prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca would be what the one true God Yahweh wants us to do?

Why not see what some of your former followers of Muhammad brethren found, after they hit the wall that you just have. They came to know the love of the one true holy and just God:
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1259.0

Peter

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Re: DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD?
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2013, 05:21:47 AM »
All of that, and we barely got started on discussing the character of the man/men that you follow, as revealed through Muhammad's stand-alone 23 year 7th century record:
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=coitus&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

Can you list for us all the reasons, that Muhammad's followers prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day, besides Muhammad told his followers to?
http://www.historyofmecca.com/

(Book #92, Hadith #448) He will reply. '(My witnesses are) Muhammad and his followers.'
(Book #93, Hadith #601) I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!'.....
(Book #60, Hadith #264) Lo! Some men from my followers will be brought and taken towards the left side...
(Book #78, Hadith #627) Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet said, "O followers of Muhammad! By Allah, if you knew what I know, you would weep much and laugh little."
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2656.0
Indeed. Even Muhammad wondered where he was going after he died. No assurance of salvation

Let me give you some help with your answer to listing all the reasons you follow Muhammad.
Can you list all the reason that Muhammad's followers kiss the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca?