Author Topic: 2 Thessalonians 2  (Read 6461 times)

Peter

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2 Thessalonians 2
« on: June 07, 2009, 12:27:16 PM »
(KJV) 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,    2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.    3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;    4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.    5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?    6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.    7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:    9  [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.    11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:    12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:    14  Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.    15  Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.    16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given [us] everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,    17  Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Peter

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Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2009, 12:34:26 PM »
(KJV) 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,    2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.    3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first,

a falling away
New Testament Greek Definition:
646 apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}
feminine of the same as 647; TDNT - 1:513,88; n f
AV - to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

and that man of sin be revealed,

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=417.0
Is the following an example? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9Ay4QAtW8

the son of perdition; 

Only one other reference to "son of perdition" is to Judas - the betrayer of Jesus.
The following description cannot apply to Judas since he was long dead, except perhaps as he provides as a "type" for betrayers of Jesus. Maybe even Christian posers.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=son+of+perdition&t=KJV&sf=5

  4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=103.0

shewing

shewing
New Testament Greek Definition:
584 apodeiknumi {ap-od-ike'-noo-mee}
from 575 and 1166;; v
AV - approve 1, prove 1, set forth 1, show 1; 4
1) to point away from one's self, to point out, show forth, to
expose to view, exhibit
2) to declare, to show, to prove what kind of person anyone is,
to prove by arguments, demonstrate

himself that he is God.    5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 

In part?
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

  6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.    7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:

7   to  <3588>  gar  <1063> {FOR THE}  musthrion  <3466> {MYSTERY}  hdh  <2235> {ALREADY}  energeitai  <1754> (5731)  thV  <3588> {IS WORKING}  anomiaV  <458> {OF LAWLESSNESS;}......

A reference to the 1st century in the "already".
In Revelation John writes not only of a world, but also churches, that were already under satanic attack with doctrines of nicolaitanism and such.

only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 

7  (cont) ......... monon  <3440> {ONLY [THERE IS]}  o  <3588> {HE WHO}  katecwn  <2722> (5723) {RESTRAINS}  arti  <737> {AT PRESENT}  ewV  <2193> {UNTIL}  ek  <1537> {OUT OF [THE]}  mesou  <3319> {MIDST}  genhtai  <1096> (5638) {HE BE [GONE],}

From a chat with brother Skolfield. Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

In verse 11 it says that God will be the one that sends strong delusion to those that don't have a love of truth.
Could that be connected to this taking away of the one who restrains?
The Holy Spirit is removed and replaced by strong delusion in those that don't have a love of truth?
Consider too that Satan will be loosed for his little season:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Looking around the world it is pretty hard to doubt that that time Satan is loosed coincides with this, Daniel's, "time of the end".

That "thousand" is an indefinite plural:

the thousand
New Testament Greek Definition:
5507 chilioi {khil'-ee-oy}
plural of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 9:466,1316; adj
AV - thousand 11; 11
1) a thousand

Amellinnealists understand it to be a description of the Christian era.
Premillennialists created a whole definite doctrine, based on that one indefinite plural.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUJpwqcAd2M&feature=channel_page
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_millennial_reign.htm


Peter

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Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2010, 01:16:54 PM »
  8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

"And then..." indicates that we are moving on to the next subject.
As in, while we see the iniquity previously written about is in the process of working, "and the next thing....".

8   kai  <2532> {AND}  tote  <5119> {THEN}  apokalufqhsetai  <601> (5701) {WILL BE REVEALED}  o  <3588> {THE}  anomoV  <459> {LAWLESS [ONE],}

Note that the [ONE] is in parentheses and might be a little "help" from the translators. If that is the case this could well be speaking about a particular group of "lawless". If so the 1/4 of mankind in Islam - that is antichrist as the most primary fundamental of their "religion" - would sure seem to qualify, as would all the unregenerate lawless of all of mankind. Perhaps with a significant portion of the ecumenical, pluralistic, institutional "church" with them.

Daniel tells us that the little horn will change times and laws. Mohammed did both with his own calendar and Mohammedan worship on Friday, not even to mention his whole false doctrine.

Is "that wicked" perhaps not only a reference to their spiritual condition, but also to the murder, misery and mayhem of 1400 years of Mohammed's Islamic Jihad? Maybe also the centuries of papal persecutions?

whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
 
on  <3739> {WHOM}  o  <3588> {THE}  kurioV  <2962> {LORD}  analwsei  <355> (5692) {WILL CONSUME}  tw  <3588> {WITH THE}  pneumati  <4151> {BREATH}  tou  <3588>  stomatoV  <4750>  autou  <846> {OF HIS MOUTH,}  kai  <2532> {AND}  katarghsei  <2673> (5692) {ANNUL}  th  <3588> {BY THE}  epifaneia  <2015> {APPEARING}  thV  <3588>  parousiaV  <3952>  autou  <846> {OF HIS COMING;}

Annulling Mohammedanism with His coming.

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/islam__quran_and_666.htm

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

9  [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan ....

Seems to indicate an individual but once again, only because of the bracketed helper words, making me even more suspicious because they were again required, to insert an individual person, into the same passage. Perhaps tradition driven.
Works both ways for Mohammed, or his minions, but as I write I am increasingly favoring understanding it as a group.
It isn't a reference to Satan, since his/their coming is after the working of, that is the result of, Satan's operating him.

And they are coming as a flood.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
Sound familiar from somewhere?

.... with all power ......


Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Satan gave his power and seat to the Islamic kingdom "beast". (leopard-bear-lion - Greece, Medo-Persia, Babylon - today's Syria/Lebanon, Iran, Iraq - the seat of Satan's Islamic kingdom "beast")

..... and signs ......

Revelation 19:20 And the beast {Islam} was taken, and with him {kingdom/beast is a "his" in Daniel} the false prophet {Mohammed} that wrought miracles {Quran} before him, {beast, Islam, Muslims}

In this rare instance, the NKJV does a little better job of this portion of this verse:
(NKJV) Revelation 19:20 ...and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence...

The Greek word "semeion" translated as "miracles" and "signs" is defined in Strong's as "that by which a person is distinguished from others and is known". That makes Mohammed a perfect fit for the false prophet, since he is his known for his Quran, and has without question been distinguished from others by it for 1400 years.

 
.... and lying wonders, 


Surah 9.30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

1John 5:10  He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; because HE BELIEVED NOT THE RECORD that God gave OF HIS SON.

   10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,

Are Muslims alone in not receiving a love of the truth?
Pretty horrifying to contemplate unsound church doctrine in light of this. The product of the modern invention of seminaries.

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

that they might be saved.    11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 

Does "a" lie mean a specific lie or just any lie? How about the lie of Islam that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of Christianity:
http://brotherpete.com/islam_is_the_opposite.htm

Surah 4:157  That THEY SAID (in boast), "WE KILLED CHRIST JESUS the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- BUT THEY KILLED HIM NOT, NOR CRUCIFIED HIM, but so it was made to appear to them,... FOR OF A SURETY THEY KILLED HIM NOT:-

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 INDEED YE HAVE PUT FORTH A THING MOST MONSTROUS!
http://brotherpete.com/

  12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

  14  Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.    15  Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.    16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given [us] everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,    17  Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. [/color]

Peter

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Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2010, 01:17:23 PM »
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm
You can use the same link for Strong's KJV definitions.

(Greek/English Interlinear (Textus Receptus) NT) 2 Thessalonians 2:1 |  erwtwmen  <2065> (5719)  de  <1161> {NOW WE BESEECH}  umaV  <5209> {YOU,}  adelfoi  <80> {BRETHERN,}  uper  <5228> {BY}  thV  <3588> {THE}  parousiaV  <3952>  tou  <3588> {COMING}  kuriou  <2962>  hmwn  <2257> {OF OUR LORD}  ihsou  <2424> {JESUS}  cristou  <5547> {CHRIST}  kai  <2532> {AND}  hmwn  <2257> {OUR}  episunagwghV  <1997> {GATHERING TOGETHER}  ep  <1909> {TO}  auton  <846> {HIM,}    2   eiV  <1519>  to  <3588> {FOR}  mh  <3361> {NOT}  tacewV  <5030> {QUICKLY}  saleuqhnai  <4531> (5683) {TO BE SHAKEN}  umaV  <5209> {YOU}  apo  <575>  tou  <3588> {IN}  nooV  <3563> {MIND,}  mhte  <3383> {NOR}  qroeisqai  <2360> (5745) {TO BE TROUBLED,}  mhte  <3383> {NEITHER}  dia  <1223> {BY}  pneumatoV  <4151> {SPIRIT,}  mhte  <3383> {NOR}  dia  <1223> {BY}  logou  <3056> {WORD,}  mhte  <3383> {NOR}  di  <1223> {BY}  epistolhV  <1992> {EPISTLE,}  wV  <5613> {AS IF}  di  <1223> {BY}  hmwn  <2257> {US,}  wV  <5613> {AS}  oti  <3754> {THAT}  enesthken  <1764> (5758) {IS PRESENT}  h  <3588> {THE}  hmera  <2250> {DAY}  tou  <3588> {OF THE}  cristou  <5547> {CHRIST.}    3 |  mh  <3361> {NOT}  tiV  <5100> {ANYONE}  umaV  <5209> {YOU}  exapathsh  <1818> (5661) {SHOULD DECEIVE}  kata  <2596> {IN}  mhdena  <3367> {ANY}  tropon  <5158> {WAY,}  oti  <3754> {BECAUSE [IT WILL NOT BE]}  ean  <1437>  mh  <3361> {UNLESS}  elqh  <2064> (5632) {SHALL HAVE COME}  h  <3588> {THE}  apostasia  <646> {APOSTASY}  prwton  <4412> {FIRST,}  kai  <2532> {AND}  apokalufqh  <601> (5686) {SHALL HAVE BEEN REVEALED}  o  <3588> {THE}  anqrwpoV  <444>  thV  <3588> {MAN}  amartiaV  <266> {OF SIN,}  o  <3588> {THE}  uioV  <5207>  thV  <3588> {SON}  apwleiaV  <684> {OF PERDITION,}    4   o  <3588> {HE WHO}  antikeimenoV  <480> (5740) {OPPOSES}  kai  <2532> {AND}  uperairomenoV  <5229> (5746) {EXALTS HIMSELF}  epi  <1909> {ABOVE}  panta  <3956> {ALL}  legomenon  <3004> (5746) {CALLED}  qeon  <2316> {GOD}  h  <2228> {OR}  sebasma  <4574> {OBJECT OF VENERATION:}  wste  <5620>  auton  <846> {SO AS FOR HIM}  eiV  <1519> {IN}  ton  <3588> {THE}  naon  <3485>  tou  <3588> {TEMPLE}  qeou  <2316> {OF GOD}  wV  <5613> {AS}  qeon  <2316> {GOD}  kaqisai  <2523> (5658) {TO SIT DOWN,}  apodeiknunta  <584> (5723) {SETTING FORTH}  eauton  <1438> {HIMSELF}  oti  <3754> {THAT}  estin  <2076> (5748) {HE IS}  qeoV  <2316> {GOD.}    5   ou  <3756>  mnhmoneuete  <3421> (5719) {DO YE NOT REMEMBER}  oti  <3754> {THAT,}  eti  <2089> {YET}  wn  <5607> (5752) {BEING}  proV  <4314> {WITH}  umaV  <5209> {YOU,}  tauta  <5023> {THESE THINGS}  elegon  <3004> (5707) {I SAID}  umin  <5213> {TO YOU?}    6   kai  <2532> {AND}  nun  <3568> {NOW}  to  <3588> {THAT WHICH}  katecon  <2722> (5723) {RESTRAINS}  oidate  <1492> (5758) {YE KNOW,}  eiV  <1519>  to  <3588> {FOR}  apokalufqhnai  <601> (5683) {TO BE REVEALED}  auton  <846> {HIM}  en  <1722> {IN}  tw  <3588>  eautou  <1438> {HIS OWN}  kairw  <2540> {TIME.}    7   to  <3588>  gar  <1063> {FOR THE}  musthrion  <3466> {MYSTERY}  hdh  <2235> {ALREADY}  energeitai  <1754> (5731)  thV  <3588> {IS WORKING}  anomiaV  <458> {OF LAWLESSNESS;}  monon  <3440> {ONLY [THERE IS]}  o  <3588> {HE WHO}  katecwn  <2722> (5723) {RESTRAINS}  arti  <737> {AT PRESENT}  ewV  <2193> {UNTIL}  ek  <1537> {OUT OF [THE]}  mesou  <3319> {MIDST}  genhtai  <1096> (5638) {HE BE [GONE],}    8   kai  <2532> {AND}  tote  <5119> {THEN}  apokalufqhsetai  <601> (5701) {WILL BE REVEALED}  o  <3588> {THE}  anomoV  <459> {LAWLESS [ONE],}  on  <3739> {WHOM}  o  <3588> {THE}  kurioV  <2962> {LORD}  analwsei  <355> (5692) {WILL CONSUME}  tw  <3588> {WITH THE}  pneumati  <4151> {BREATH}  tou  <3588>  stomatoV  <4750>  autou  <846> {OF HIS MOUTH,}  kai  <2532> {AND}  katarghsei  <2673> (5692) {ANNUL}  th  <3588> {BY THE}  epifaneia  <2015> {APPEARING}  thV  <3588>  parousiaV  <3952>  autou  <846> {OF HIS COMING;}    9   ou  <3739> {WHOSE}  estin  <2076> (5748)  h  <3588> {IS}  parousia  <3952> {COMING}  kat  <2596> {ACCORDING TO [THE]}  energeian  <1753>  tou  <3588> {WORKING}  satana  <4567> {OF SATAN}  en  <1722> {IN}  pash  <3956> {EVERY}  dunamei  <1411> {POWER}  kai  <2532> {AND}  shmeioiV  <4592> {SIGNS}  kai  <2532> {AND}  terasin  <5059> {WONDERS}  yeudouV  <5579> {OF FALSEHOOD,}    10   kai  <2532> {AND}  en  <1722> {IN}  pash  <3956> {EVERY}  apath  <539> {DECEIT}  thV  <3588> {OF}  adikiaV  <93> {UNRIGHTEOUSNESS}  en  <1722> {IN}  toiV  <3588> {THEM THAT}  apollumenoiV  <622> (5730) {PERISH,}  anq  <473>  wn  <3739> {BECAUSE}  thn  <3588> {THE}  agaphn  <26> {LOVE}  thV  <3588> {OF THE}  alhqeiaV  <225> {TRUTH}  ouk  <3756>  edexanto  <1209> (5662) {THEY RECEIVED NOT}  eiV  <1519>  to  <3588> {FOR}  swqhnai  <4982> (5683) {TO BE SAVED}  autouV  <846> {THEM.}    11   kai  <2532> {AND}  dia  <1223> {ON ACCOUNT OF}  touto  <5124> {THIS}  pemyei  <3992> (5692) {WILL SEND}  autoiV  <846>  o  <3588> {TO THEM}  qeoV  <2316> {GOD}  energeian  <1753> {A WORKING}  planhV  <4106> {OF ERROR,}  eiV  <1519>  to  <3588> {FOR}  pisteusai  <4100> (5658) {TO BELIEVE}  autouV  <846> {THEM}  tw  <3588> {WHAT [IS]}  yeudei  <5579> {FALSE,}    12   ina  <2443> {THAT}  kriqwsin  <2919> (5686) {MAY BE JUDGED}  panteV  <3956> {ALL}  oi  <3588> {WHO}  mh  <3361>  pisteusanteV  <4100> (5660) {BELIEVED NOT}  th  <3588> {THE}  alhqeia  <225> {TRUTH,}  all  <235> {BUT}  eudokhsanteV  <2106> (5660) {DELIGHTED}  en  <1722>  th  <3588> {IN}  adikia  <93> {UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.}    13  |  hmeiV  <2249>  de  <1161> {BUT WE}  ofeilomen  <3784> (5719) {OUGHT}  eucaristein  <2168> (5721)  tw  <3588> {TO GIVE THANKS}  qew  <2316> {TO GOD}  pantote  <3842> {ALWAYS}  peri  <4012> {CONCERNING}  umwn  <5216> {YOU,}  adelfoi  <80> {BRETHERN}  hgaphmenoi  <25> (5772) {BELOVED}  upo  <5259> {BY [THE]}  kuriou  <2962> {LORD,}  oti  <3754> {THAT}  eileto  <138> (5639) {CHOSE}  umaV  <5209>  o  <3588> {YOU}  qeoV  <2316> {GOD}  ap  <575> {FROM [THE]}  archV  <746> {BEGINNING}  eiV  <1519> {TO}  swthrian  <4991> {SALVATION}  en  <1722> {IN}  agiasmw  <38> {SANCTIFICATION}  pneumatoV  <4151> {OF [THE] SPIRIT}  kai  <2532> {AND}  pistei  <4102> {BELIEF}  alhqeiaV  <225> {OF [THE] TRUTH;}    14   eiV  <1519>  o  <3739> {WHERETO}  ekalesen  <2564> (5656) {HE CALLED}  umaV  <5209> {YOU}  dia  <1223>  tou  <3588> {BY}  euaggeliou  <2098>  hmwn  <2257> {OUR GLAD TIDINGS,}  eiV  <1519> {TO [THE]}  peripoihsin  <4047> {OBTAINING}  doxhV  <1391>  tou  <3588> {OF [THE] GLORY}  kuriou  <2962> {OF LORD}  hmwn  <2257> {OUR}  ihsou  <2424> {JESUS}  cristou  <5547> {CHRIST.}    15   ara  <686> {SO}  oun  <3767> {THEN,}  adelfoi  <80> {BRETHERN,}  sthkete  <4739> (5720) {STAND FIRM,}  kai  <2532> {AND}  krateite  <2902> (5720) {HOLD FAST}  taV  <3588> {THE}  paradoseiV  <3862> {TRADITIONS}  aV  <3739> {WHICH}  edidacqhte  <1321> (5681) {YE WERE TAUGHT,}  eite  <1535> {WHETHER}  dia  <1223> {BY}  logou  <3056> {WORD}  eite  <1535> {OR}  di  <1223> {BY}  epistolhV  <1992>  hmwn  <2257> {OUR EPISTLE.}    16  |  autoV  <846>  de  <1161>  o  <3588> {BUT HIMSELF}  kurioV  <2962> {LORD}  hmwn  <2257> {OUR}  ihsouV  <2424> {JESUS}  cristoV  <5547> {CHRIST,}  kai  <2532>  o  <3588> {AND}  qeoV  <2316> {GOD}  kai  <2532> {AND}  pathr  <3962> {FATHER}  hmwn  <2257> {OUR,}  o  <3588> {WHO}  agaphsaV  <25> (5660) {LOVED}  hmaV  <2248> {US,}  kai  <2532> {AND}  douV  <1325> (5631) {GAVE [US]}  paraklhsin  <3874> {ENCOURAGEMENT}  aiwnian  <166> {ETERNAL}  kai  <2532> {AND}  elpida  <1680> {HOPE}  agaqhn  <18> {GOOD}  en  <1722> {BY}  cariti  <5485> {GRACE,}    17   parakalesai  <3870> (5659) {MAY HE ENCOURAGE}  umwn  <5216>  taV  <3588> {YOUR}  kardiaV  <2588> {HEARTS,}  kai  <2532> {AND}  sthrixai  <4741> (5659) {MAY HE ESTABLISH}  umaV  <5209> {YOU}  en  <1722> {IN}  panti  <3956> {EVERY}  logw  <3056> {WORD}  kai  <2532> {AND}  ergw  <2041> {WORK}  agaqw  <18> {GOOD.}

Peter

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Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2010, 09:44:20 AM »
Read it with a selective capitalization lower cased and the bracketed helper words removed.

 8-10 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

An individual or a coming wickedness?

resistingrexmundi

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Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2010, 03:05:33 PM »
The coming could also be in reference to Christ. His coming would be AFTER the devil had his time. Just a thought. It is the same word used for Jesus' coming earlier in the verse and chronologically would makes sense.

Drop those helper words and it reads that Jesus' coming is after satan has done his thing.
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2010, 04:31:02 PM »
The coming could also be in reference to Christ. His coming would be AFTER the devil had his time. Just a thought. It is the same word used for Jesus' coming earlier in the verse and chronologically would makes sense.

Drop those helper words and it reads that Jesus' coming is after satan has done his thing.
I doubt it bro. I think there is little question the wicked is what is referenced. Drop the colon in the prior text and add a comma.

9 whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Much more clear here. And very interesting. "Whose" is possessive. "Whose is" might be like the minions of "that wicked".
The wicked possesses those that are coming according to working of Satan.

9   ou  <3739> {WHOSE}  estin  <2076> (5748)  h  <3588> {IS}  parousia  <3952> {COMING}  kat  <2596> {ACCORDING TO [THE]}  energeian  <1753>  tou  <3588> {WORKING}  satana  <4567> {OF SATAN}  en  <1722> {IN}  pash  <3956> {EVERY}  dunamei  <1411> {POWER}  kai  <2532> {AND}  shmeioiV  <4592> {SIGNS}  kai  <2532> {AND}  terasin  <5059> {WONDERS}  yeudouV  <5579> {OF FALSEHOOD,}    

resistingrexmundi

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From the Daniel thread.
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2010, 03:03:35 AM »
(disappeared then restored from database)

It is important to note the core theme of this epistle. It was an exhortation to the church of Thessalonica for their charity and endurance in the face of tribulation. It was also meant to assure them that those who caused them tribulation would be held accountable on the day of Judgement. It is common in our walk with God to look around us and wonder why He allows so much evil to oppress us. But we have hope that one day that evil will be consumed in an unquenchable fire. For those who did not turn from their evil ways their fate is dismal indeed. This theme is covered in the opening verses of chapter 1.

2Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2Th 1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

You will see that the perpetrators of this tribulation are mentioned plurally. Because it is at the hands of many people that the churches were meeting their persecution. Paul then took the time to expound upon the driving force of this persecution to add perspective to the tribulation the church was experiencing and assure them that it was necessarily going to happen before Jesus' return.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3&nbsp;  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Let's take the time to see how this word was used in the original greek.

that man anthropos-a human being, whether male or female

a) generically, to include all human individuals
b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order

1) of animals and plants
2) of from God and Christ
3) of the angels
c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin
d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity
e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul
f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God
g) with reference to sex, a male

2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one

3) in the plural, people

4) joined with other words, merchantman

If Paul had wish to convey the meaning that this would be a single individual he had a more appropriate word to use.

deina-1) such a one, a certain one, i.e. one whose name I cannot call on the instant, or whose name it is of no importance to mention
Or
arr?n-1) a male

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

himself-1) himself, herself, itself, themselves

The same holds true for the word he in this verse. Paul used autos...

he-1) himself, herself, themselves, itself
2) he, she, it
3) the same
...instead of tis.
tis-1) a certain, a certain one,
2) some, some time, a while

2Th 2:7&nbsp;  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

This verse tells us that the work of that man of sin is constantly at work and was already at work then. The only way he can manifest himself is if we let him, and he will continue to do so until that sinful nature is conquered once and for all.

he that now arti-1) just now, this moment
2) now at this time, at this very time, this moment

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This verse gives the location of where the man of sin operates. WITHIN those that perish who would not recieve the love of the truth.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12&nbsp;  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This verse reaffirms what the verses preceding have already said. That those who allowed the man of sin to work would be judged accordingly. Knowing all of this how do you suppose that a single figure is the embodiment of that man of sin when Paul said that it was working in his day, was in those who rejected the truth, used words to convey that it was applied generally, and the use of similiar literary devices in other epistles. ie.

1Cr 2:14&nbsp;  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Are we to believe there is only one natural man that cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God?
   
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 06:42:38 AM by PeteWaldo »
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

resistingrexmundi

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Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2010, 05:50:09 AM »
The coming could also be in reference to Christ. His coming would be AFTER the devil had his time. Just a thought. It is the same word used for Jesus' coming earlier in the verse and chronologically would makes sense.

Drop those helper words and it reads that Jesus' coming is after satan has done his thing.
I doubt it bro. I think there is little question the wicked is what is referenced. Drop the colon in the prior text and add a comma.

9 whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Much more clear here. And very interesting. "Whose" is possessive. "Whose is" might be like the minions of "that wicked".
The wicked possesses those that are coming according to working of Satan.

9   ou  <3739> {WHOSE}  estin  <2076> (5748)  h  <3588> {IS}  parousia  <3952> {COMING}  kat  <2596> {ACCORDING TO [THE]}  energeian  <1753>  tou  <3588> {WORKING}  satana  <4567> {OF SATAN}  en  <1722> {IN}  pash  <3956> {EVERY}  dunamei  <1411> {POWER}  kai  <2532> {AND}  shmeioiV  <4592> {SIGNS}  kai  <2532> {AND}  terasin  <5059> {WONDERS}  yeudouV  <5579> {OF FALSEHOOD,}    

AH. I did not look up the word after. I took it to mean chronologically speaking. Just looked it up.

1) down from, through out

2) according to, toward, along

Sorry about that.
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2010, 08:14:37 AM »
The coming could also be in reference to Christ. His coming would be AFTER the devil had his time. Just a thought. It is the same word used for Jesus' coming earlier in the verse and chronologically would makes sense.

Drop those helper words and it reads that Jesus' coming is after satan has done his thing.
I doubt it bro. I think there is little question the wicked is what is referenced. Drop the colon in the prior text and add a comma.

9 whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Much more clear here. And very interesting. "Whose" is possessive. "Whose is" might be like the minions of "that wicked".
The wicked possesses those that are coming according to working of Satan.

9   ou  <3739> {WHOSE}  estin  <2076> (5748)  h  <3588> {IS}  parousia  <3952> {COMING}  kat  <2596> {ACCORDING TO [THE]}  energeian  <1753>  tou  <3588> {WORKING}  satana  <4567> {OF SATAN}  en  <1722> {IN}  pash  <3956> {EVERY}  dunamei  <1411> {POWER}  kai  <2532> {AND}  shmeioiV  <4592> {SIGNS}  kai  <2532> {AND}  terasin  <5059> {WONDERS}  yeudouV  <5579> {OF FALSEHOOD,}    

AH. I did not look up the word after. I took it to mean chronologically speaking. Just looked it up.

1) down from, through out

2) according to, toward, along

Sorry about that.

And you can skip that whole "possessive" on the "whose" point I raised. I didn't look at Strong's first, and this is one of those kinds of translated words where one definitely should, before blathering on as I did.
http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G3739/orcheomai.htm

It was kinda cool. Rather than the several step process I generally use, I just typed - strong's 3739 - into Google, and voila!
What a wonderful and instant info age we live in for this purpose!

Peter

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Re: 2 Thessalonians 2
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2012, 09:04:23 AM »
(KJV) 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, .....
‘180,000 Catholics quit church last year in Germany’

AS many as 180,000 Catholics quit the church last year in the wake of persistent child sex abuse scandals, a media report said recently.

What it means is that more Catholics abandoned their church than Protestants for the first time in Germany.

According to a survey by magazine Christ & Welt, 180,000 Catholics left the church in 2010, which was a rise of 40 percent on the previous year.

Compared with this, 150,000 left the country’s Protestant Church, the survey said.

In the Catholic community, membership decline was concentrated in the first half of the year around the time when public anger over child abuse scandals was at its peak.

Responding to the survey, Cologne vicar-general Dominik Schwaderlapp said that many Catholics had left as a ‘personal form of protest and expression of disgust.’

The magazine surveyed 27 Catholic dioceses, 24 of which provided definite figures.

Over 200 cases of child abuse at church institutions throughout the country emerged in the months that followed, the report added.
http://www.christianmessenger.in/%E2%80%98180000-catholics-quit-church-last-year-in-germany%E2%80%99/