7 - Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God

[Peter]

Tell the jentyls, the christians that is better not they say that god has a begoten a son, nor god is begoten. Thats the problem...

Forgot and made juses as a god made three in one, including spirit.

This where it comes that you wont understand whats spirit is. This topic will take long time of explaining. Your heart should be pure and your mind to understand this. Not easy. I would but it would be difficult or heavy to understand. But then again, you will say or who ever that we havent answer it and we avoiding it. Just god the lord in heaven one day makes understand those that god will guide.

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=215.0

[punisher]

If you have heard "The term "begotten isn't translated properly". Or "it was added later". Or "scholars have removed it" or some other such nonsense: please click here.

naliakbar video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpgRIGRbF8s&watch_response
naliakbar suggests that Christians believe that God had carnal sexual realtions with Mary.
The reason Muslims have to make such a preposterous claim and deny the obvious use of the term begotten, is because the Quran is the opposite of the bible when it matters:

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Surah 112:2 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

Consider the term begat:

1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce: Violence begets more violence.

If God didn't beget Jesus, then who caused Jesus to be? (on earth) How did Mary become pregnant with Jesus Christ?

Muslims believe Jesus was uniquely created by God in the Virgin Mary, yet have to deny it at the same time claiming that God didn't cause Jesus to be put in Mary.

If God put Jesus in Mary by saying "be" and she conceived Jesus, then how did God not cause Jesus to be manifest on earth?
Then who would be Jesus' Father? Jesus tells us God is His Father in maybe 1/3 of the 234 verses that declare God to be the Father.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/god_the_father.htm
If God is Jesus Father, then isn't Jesus God's Son? Over 100 verses declare Jesus to be the Son of God:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/jesus.htm

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.



Old Testament prophecy:
Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

New Testament:

Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Jhn 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jhn 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

Jhn 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hbr 5:5  So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Defining the meaning of the word "Son"

Now in Isaiah 9:6 "....there has been a son given to us,.........",

Psalm 82:6  "I said, 'You are "gods" (Elohim; plural to El); you are all sons of the Most High.' "  "gods" here in Hebrew is "Elohim", which is plural of "EL".  It is the same exact thing as "EL" used for Jesus in Isaiah 9:6, since "gods" is a combination of several "EL"s.  And as clearly shown here, for someone to be called "god" or "God" in the Bible it wouldn't make him GOD Almighty Himself, the LORD or Jehovah.  I also want to point out that any "Son of GOD" in the Bible is a "god" or "God". 

Also, let us look at John 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."  Ironically, Trinitarians from my personal experience with them rely on this verse (John 3:16) very heavily when trying to prove that Allah or Jehovah came down to earth to die for our sins.  They claim that Jesus being God's unique son, makes him the only Son for God, which ultimately lead us to the conclusion that Jehovah is Jesus.

Also, let us look at Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice.  He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son...."  Abraham had two sons:  Ishmael and Isaac.  Ishmael was 13 years older than Isaac.  Yet we see that "his one and only son" expression was used for Isaac.  The Bible uses expressions like this to magnify people or to glorify someone on a certain occasion.  The Bible in this verse glorifies Isaac for being the chosen sacrifice to God, according to what the Jews and Christians claim in their corrupted Bible.  So Jesus being God's "only begotten Son" in John 3:16 doesn't make him God nor the only Son of God.

Now, Let us look at Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."  Here we see in this verse that Israel is not only God's so called "Son", but also his first born !!.  Does this mean that Jehovah is Israel?  Does it mean that we must worship Israel as Jehovah or Allah?  Of course not !!!

Also, let us look at Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim in this verse means Israel.  This verse is similar to Exodus 4:22.

Let us also look at Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."  Here in this verse we see that God not only called David his "Son", but also had made him his begotten Son  !!!.

Swapping Game:  Let us play a little swapping game between the verses of John 3:16, Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 31:9, and Psalm 2:7.  Let us take "his only begotten Son" from John 3:16 and replace it in Exodus 4:22, and let us take "even my firstborn" from Exodus 4:22 and replace it in John 3:16. 

Do you honestly think that the little swap game above would change anything in the meaning?  Would you still have believed in Jesus as Jehovah if the above swap was true? 

The above swap proves that the word "Son" doesn't mean actual biological "Son" at all.   It just means that Jesus is a "Son" of Jehovah in a way that Jehovah loved him so much that he chose him to be his messenger to the people of Israel.

[Peter]

The above swap proves that the word "Son" doesn't mean actual biological "Son" at all.

Scripture states that Yahweh was manifest in Yahshua in the flesh, in the lineage of David.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 It just means that Jesus is a "Son" of Jehovah in a way that Jehovah loved him so much that he chose him to be his messenger to the people of Israel.

Let's set aside your multiple topic confusion and start with your conclusion of what it "just means".
1. How many people in the history of mankind were ever conceived by a virgin?
2. Who made Mary pregnant with Jesus?

The rest of your post is sent to spam until you break it down into individual points and post it on the appropriate threads AFTER we discuss the conclusion.

[Peter]

Defining the meaning of the word "Son"

Now in Isaiah 9:6 "....there has been a son given to us,.........",

In the absence of a reply to my prior post, I moved your post from spam back onto this thread, and I'll move forward with the rest of your post, breaking it down by topic myself, but please respond to my replies in order with answers and not further spamming with copy and paste of multiple topics.

You cited one of the most blessed of the Messianic prophecies, that also affirms Yahshua's divinity!

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Psalm 82:6  "I said, 'You are "gods" (Elohim; plural to El); you are all sons of the Most High.' "  "gods" here in Hebrew is "Elohim", which is plural of "EL".  It is the same exact thing as "EL" used for Jesus in Isaiah 9:6, since "gods" is a combination of several "EL"s.

That's why context is important to understanding a term that can mean either God or god.
So in Isaiah 9.6 we can see that the Son that is given shall be called "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father", so it should be painfully obvious to even someone like you, that the one true God Yahweh is meant.

Ye [are] gods
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0430 'elohiym {el-o-heem'}
plural of 0433; TWOT - 93c; n m p
AV - God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2,
angels 1, exceeding 1, God-ward + 04136 1, godly 1; 2606
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God

The following quote is certainly not definitive as it is Wikipedia, but sometimes they get it right.
"Elohim (???????) is a plural formation of eloah, an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il (???, ??l [1]). It is the usual word for "god" in the Hebrew Bible, referring both to pagan deities and to the God of Israel, usually with a singular meaning despite its plural form, but is also used as a true plural with the meanings "spirits, angels, demons," and the like.[2]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim
http://www.israelofgod.org/elohim1.htm
singular plural

And as clearly shown here, for someone to be called "god" or "God" in the Bible it wouldn't make him GOD Almighty Himself, .......

The context is what "clearly shows" how untenable your false claim is regarding Isaiah 9:6 since He is also called "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father"

And another

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Immanuel
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0410 'el {ale}
shortened from 0352; TWOT - 93a; n m
AV - God 213, god 16, power 4, mighty 5, goodly 1, great 1, idols 1,
Immanuel + 06005 2, might 1, strong 1; 245
1) god, god-like one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power

We can see from Strong's word count that Immanuel is translated as upper-case "God" 213 times in the Old Testament.

Fulfilled in Yahshua Messiah

Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

.... the LORD or Jehovah.  I also want to point out that any "Son of GOD" in the Bible is a "god" or "God".

And now the "answering-christianity" website antichrists are going to "point out" Scripture to us.
Punisher, when you copy and paste foolishness from liars, you become one of them.
Even a single verse shows the distinction in sons of God.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

All while ignoring that you yourself believe Jesus Christ is THE ONLY person in the history of mankind, to be conceived by a virgin by the will of God.
Yet because of the turn of two phrases in Mohammed's ridiculous 7th century antichrist rantings, you are compelled to declare Jesus fatherless, directly contrary to hundreds of verses in Scripture that declare otherwise.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=316.0
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.0

[Peter]

Also, let us look at John 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."  Ironically, Trinitarians from my personal experience with them rely on this verse (John 3:16) very heavily when trying to prove that Allah or Jehovah came down to earth to die for our sins.

Just as preposterous as their last claim. If they had ever read the Gospel they would have understood that Christians don't "...rely on this verse..." but rather that Jesus' crucifixion, death and resurrection, and salvation through faith in His shed blood, is the whole subject of the new covenant.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=537.0
 It is what the Gospel is about!
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1175.0
Why don't you read a little some time instead of continuing to be duped by Greek sophist styled lying entertainers like Ahmed Deedat, through his antichrist poppycock, and foolish sites like answering-christianity that you copy and pasted the above nonsense from?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

[Peter]

They claim that Jesus being God's unique son, makes him the only Son for God, which ultimately lead us to the conclusion that Jehovah is Jesus.

Are you beginning to see what happens when an antichrist, that cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, actually thinks that he knows what Christians believe, and why we believe what we do?
Combining these two elements isn't what "...ultimately lead to the conclusion that Jehovah is Jesus."

The Christian "claim" that Jesus is revealed as God's unique Son, should be obvious to all but the most mentally impaired, of those who believe that Jesus is the only human in the history of mankind to be conceived by a virgin by the will of Yahweh.

Historical ignorance runs so high in Islam that Muslims actually believe Alexander the Great to be a prophet - who the actual historical record paints as one of the most consummate pagans in the history of mankind - yet in Mohammedanism Alexander is on a par with Jesus...
Qur'an 3:84-85 .... Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them....
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1586.0

Whereas the reason that Christians conclude that Yahshua is Yahweh, is because He indicated it repeatedly Himself.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?board=40.0
Look at Isaiah 9:6 in the post above again.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=55.msg6964#msg6964

[Peter]

Also, let us look at Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice.  He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son...."  Abraham had two sons:  Ishmael and Isaac.  Ishmael was 13 years older than Isaac.  Yet we see that "his one and only son" expression was used for Isaac.

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

After Yahweh told Abraham to follow his wife Sarah's advice and throw her servant Hagar, and Hagar's son Ishmael out of the house, even Yahweh Himself it would seem didn't recognize Ishmael as a son of Abraham.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1483.0

Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Ishmael was thrown out and disowned because of his mocking of Isaac (and because Abraham's wife Sarah bore Isaac). But Ishmael was specifically cut out of the covenant Yahweh made with Abraham, Isaac and his seed - even well in advance of Ishmael's mocking.

Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.

The Bible uses expressions like this to magnify people or to glorify someone on a certain occasion.  The Bible in this verse glorifies Isaac for being the chosen sacrifice to Yahweh, according to what the Jews and Christians claim in their corrupted Bible.

We see what you say about the Bible punisher, but what did Mohammed have to say about the Bible?
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1705.0

So Jesus being God's "only begotten Son" in John 3:16 doesn't make him God nor the only Son of God.

The conclusion has no relationship to the ridiculous argument that preceded it.

[Peter]

Now, Let us look at Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."  Here we see in this verse that Israel is not only God's so called "Son", but also his first born !!.  Does this mean that Jehovah is Israel?  Does it mean that we must worship Israel as Jehovah or Allah?  Of course not !!!

Also, let us look at Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim in this verse means Israel.  This verse is similar to Exodus 4:22.

This is about Yahweh's relationship with what became tribes and nations.

[Peter]

Let us also look at Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."  Here in this verse we see that God not only called David his "Son", but also had made him his begotten Son  !!!.

Indeed, "let us also look at" yet another blessed Messianic prophecy that you pointed out.
Jesus was made manifest in David's lineage.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

The new covenant confirming this prophecy through Jesus Christ

Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Thus another classic Mohammedan scripture-ignorant backfire!

Swapping Game:  Let us play a little swapping game between the verses of John 3:16, Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 31:9, and Psalm 2:7.  Let us take "his only begotten Son" from John 3:16 and replace it in Exodus 4:22, and let us take "even my firstborn" from Exodus 4:22 and replace it in John 3:16.  

Do you honestly think that the little swap game above would change anything in the meaning?  Would you still have believed in Jesus as Jehovah if the above swap was true?  

The only "swap" made in this copy and pasted "answering-christianity" post was an epically failed attempt to swap out truth and replace it with lies.
Punisher, please begin your responses with my first reply.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=55.msg6935#msg6935
Let's thoroughly discuss each reply, as we move through all of them, in order.

The above swap proves that the word "Son" doesn't mean actual biological "Son" at all.   It just means that Jesus is a "Son" of Jehovah in a way that Jehovah loved him so much that he chose him to be his messenger to the people of Israel.

[Peter]

Punisher read the prior post and reply with responses not unrelated multiple copy and paste.
If you cannot do this ALL of your posts from here after will go to spam. You must stop ignoring replies and start with the post that I said you must start with in the prior post.
You must start here. Answer the questions.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=55.msg6935#msg6935

Subjects must be answered one by one and in order with answers in your own words. No more copy and paste.

[punisher]

Scripture states that Yahweh was manifest in Yahshua in the flesh, in the lineage of David.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

This is clearly contradiction in Bible, Let see how

The Genealogy of Jesus.

a) From David to Jesus 41 names (generations) are given by Matthew [although he claims
there are 42] as against the 26 names [generations] given by Luke [Luke 3]. A difference
of 15 whole generations in the genealogy of the same man.

Matthew mentions that Jesus was the seed of David through Solomon while Luke says that Jesus was the seed of David through Nathan [Solomon's brother]. This is a contradiction as the seed of David could never reach Jesus through Solomon and his brother Nathan at the same time. According to Matthew Jesus' grandfather is Jacob [the father of Joseph] while according to Luke it is Heli.

1. How many people in the history of mankind were ever conceived by a virgin?

a Few

2. Who made Mary pregnant with Jesus?

Almighty Allah the creator  of Universe make the Mary Pregnant without meeting of a Male. As he was lord of Universe he created us all, he can do everything he want to show people how powerful he is

[Peter]

Scripture states that Yahweh was manifest in Yahshua in the flesh, in the lineage of David.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

This is clearly contradiction in Bible, Let see how

The Genealogy of Jesus.

a) From David to Jesus 41 names (generations) are given by Matthew [although he claims
there are 42] as against the 26 names [generations] given by Luke [Luke 3]. A difference
of 15 whole generations in the genealogy of the same man.

Matthew mentions that Jesus was the seed of David through Solomon while Luke says that Jesus was the seed of David through Nathan [Solomon's brother]. This is a contradiction as the seed of David could never reach Jesus through Solomon and his brother Nathan at the same time. According to Matthew Jesus' grandfather is Jacob [the father of Joseph] while according to Luke it is Heli.

That didn't address our discussion on the point you pretended to answer to. Try agan. READ WHAT YOU WROTE, THAT I ADDRESSED, this time. We aren't talking about numbers of generations.
Quote what you wrote, what my reply was, and then reply.
ONE POINT AT A TIME.
This is the reason for it. You don't seem to be able to concentrate on a single point, but if you want to stay in this forum you are going to have to learn how to.

Your days of quoting something, and ignoring what you quoted, but instead using it as an opportunity to to copy and paste a bunch of unrelated spam, are over.

That two different disciples, detailed two different periods of genealogy, did not address the point we are discussing, nor is it a contradiction. This is a new point you can raise if you like AFTER you reply to, and we discuss each previous post point, one by one.

[Peter]

Since I began with your conclusion first, it might be less confusing for you if you start with the next post down, that addresses the beginning of your post.
I reposted it immediately below.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=55.msg6964#msg6964

The point we are discussing is the "swap" that you wrote about, that I replied to. Not Yahweh's name. I can move that unrelated post, to the related thread. You can respond to my replies AFTER we discuss the points on this thread one by one, in order.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1728.0
Maybe after that we can discuss the name of the pagan Arabian moon/star god "Allah".
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1240.0
Read the string of discussion again.
If you raise another unrelated point it will risk going straight to spam.
We can discuss all of this next, if you like, but AFTER you engage in discussion.

You see, when you copy and paste something, you have to be prepared to defend every point that it raises.

[Peter]

Defining the meaning of the word "Son"

Now in Isaiah 9:6 "....there has been a son given to us,.........",

In the absence of a reply to my prior post, I moved your post from spam back onto this thread, and I'll move forward with the rest of your post, breaking it down by topic myself, but please respond to my replies in order with answers and not further spamming with copy and paste of multiple topics.

You cited one of the most blessed of the Messianic prophecies, that also affirms Yahshua's divinity!

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[edit addition - Why did you only post 8 words of Isaiah 9:6 in trying to make your point?
Can you see that the very verse you chose, not only failed to make your point, but instead supports my beliefs? end edit]

[Peter]

Punisher please answer the questions. Your copy and pasted spam will go to your spam storage until we discuss my replies to your post that you ignored.
I will continue to copy my replies to your posts for discussion, point by point, as I did immediately above.
Why wouldn't you want to demonstrate to us that you have the ability to think for yourself?