7 - Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God

[Pete]

 If you have heard "The term "begotten isn't translated properly". Or "it was added later". Or "scholars have removed it" or some other such nonsense: please click here.

naliakbar video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpgRIGRbF8s&watch_response
naliakbar suggests that Christians believe that God had carnal sexual realtions with Mary.
The reason Muslims have to make such a preposterous claim and deny the obvious use of the term begotten, is because the Quran is the opposite of the bible when it matters:

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Surah 112:2 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

Consider the term begat:

1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce: Violence begets more violence.

If God didn't beget Jesus, then who caused Jesus to be? (on earth) How did Mary become pregnant with Jesus Christ?

Muslims believe Jesus was uniquely created by God in the Virgin Mary, yet have to deny it at the same time claiming that God didn't cause Jesus to be put in Mary.

If God put Jesus in Mary by saying "be" and she conceived Jesus, then how did God not cause Jesus to be manifest on earth?
Then who would be Jesus' Father? Jesus tells us God is His Father in maybe 1/3 of the 234 verses that declare God to be the Father.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/god_the_father.htm
If God is Jesus Father, then isn't Jesus God's Son? Over 100 verses declare Jesus to be the Son of God:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/jesus.htm

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.



Old Testament prophecy:
Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

New Testament:

Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Jhn 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jhn 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

Jhn 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hbr 5:5  So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

[Summadat]

spewing with ignorance...you speak a lot, but extremely few words of wisdom.

First you say that Jesus is God.  Then you asked who caused jesus to exist (implying that God did).  So God caused Jesus to exist? And Jesus is God? And God begat Jesus? And Jesus is still God?  How can the begotten and the begetter be the same?- Only the insane can propose such a theory!

Then you go on to give the dictionary meaning of 'begat'.  You say that it means to father or sire.  Now this is ALWAYS what the christians have proposed as the meaning of the word 'begotten'- implying that God has a son in the literal sense of the word.

Is there ANY case in the bible in which the word 'begotten' is ascribed other than insinuating an offspring?  Is there "God Begat the world"? Or God begat Angels? Or God Begat all of mankind?  So your argument is nullified.  The arabic word that is translated to the english 'begotten' is only used to refute the christian application of that specific word which, again, is used to blaspheme that God has a son.  Case closed.

[Peter]

spewing with ignorance...you speak a lot, but extremely few words of wisdom.

First you say that Jesus is God.

Jesus said that Jesus is God:
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
 

Then you asked who caused jesus to exist (implying that God did).  So God caused Jesus to exist?

I agree I put it inadequately.
Should have said something more like God caused Jesus to become manifest in the flesh, revealing His purpose to save mankind. God and Jesus are one.

 

And Jesus is God? And God begat Jesus? And Jesus is still God?  How can the begotten and the begetter be the same?-

Because God and Jesus are one.

 

Only the insane can propose such a theory!

It's not a "theory". You can see from the 120 or so verses declaring Jesus to be the Son of God that it is how God chose to reveal Himself to us, both through Old Testament prophecy and New Testament fulfillment. In the next post you can see that Jesus is the light that is IN God.

God caused the Virgin Mary to conceive Jesus, as you believe. That's why it seems so strange to me that you would deny the verses that declare that Jesus is God's Son.

Jesus is a part of God, just as the Spirit of God is a part of God.

Read the scriptures and draw your own conclusions. Don't depend on my explanations. The ways of God are something we can't know. I can only do my best to explain it the way I understand it.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

I believe Islam also teaches that we can't know the nature of God, His mind, or His ways.

Then you go on to give the dictionary meaning of 'begat'.

I used the modern dictionary definition to try to help Muslims understand, since they are not filled with the Spirit of God. You can see from the Strong's definitions explaining the Greek the same two uses that the modern dictionary put forward.

NOBODY BELIEVES that God had carnal, fleshly, relations with Mary. Yet Mary conceived God's only begotten Son.

You say that it means to father or sire.  Now this is ALWAYS what the christians have proposed as the meaning of the word 'begotten'- implying that God has a son in the literal sense of the word.

It's not an implication. In about 120 verses throughout the New Testament, and in the Old, God's inspired Word refers to Jesus as the Son of God. It's as simple as trusting God's Word, and even God's own voice:

Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

That's what makes Islam so strikingly opposite. An anti-another-religion religion.

I haven't done a word search for Father in regard to God being Jesus' father, but the verse count would also be very high. God is Jesus Father as well as the Father of the sons of God, through Jesus Christ. The latter would be the higher count:
 
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Do Muslims enjoy a father-son relationship with God?

I'll do that next.

If God wasn't Jesus' Father, and Jesus wasn't God's Son, then who is Jesus Father?

Is there ANY case in the bible in which the word 'begotten' is ascribed other than insinuating an offspring?

Jesus IS God's ONLY begotten Son. God's offspring. 120 verses declare it. God Himself as He chose to reveal Himself to us. The Word made flesh. http://www.islamandthetruth.com/#gospel_of_john

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Strong's:
  begotten
New Testament Greek Definition:
1080 gennao {ghen-nah'-o}
from a variation of 1085; TDNT - 1:665,114; v
AV - begat 49, be born 39, bear 2, gender 2, bring forth 1,
be delivered 1, misc 3; 97
1) of men who fathered children
1a) to be born
1b) to be begotten
1b1) of women giving birth to children
2) metaph.
2a) to engender, cause to arise, excite
2b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his
way of life, to convert someone
2c) of God making Christ his son
2d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

  only begotten
New Testament Greek Definition:
3439 monogenes {mon-og-en-ace'}
from 3441 and 1096; TDNT - 4:737,606; adj
AV - only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1; 9
1) single of its kind, only
1a) used of only sons or daughters
(viewed in relation to their parents)
1b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

  him that begat
New Testament Greek Definition:
1080 gennao {ghen-nah'-o}
from a variation of 1085; TDNT - 1:665,114; v
AV - begat 49, be born 39, bear 2, gender 2, bring forth 1,
be delivered 1, misc 3; 97
1) of men who fathered children
1a) to be born
1b) to be begotten
1b1) of women giving birth to children
2) metaph.
2a) to engender, cause to arise, excite
2b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his
way of life, to convert someone
2c) of God making Christ his son
2d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

Is there "God Begat the world"? Or God begat Angels? Or God Begat all of mankind?  So your argument is nullified.

Not at all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God the Father. Those that are in Jesus Christ are sons of God.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Both:
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

  The arabic word that is translated to the english 'begotten' is only used to refute the christian application of that specific word which, again, is used to blaspheme that God has a son.  Case closed.

What is blasphemy to a 7th century illiterate false prophet and his stand-alone religion, is the DIRECT OPPOSITE of what is considered blasphemy of the God of the Christians and Jews, as He revealed Himself to us through the prophets and scriptures.

What you are speaking, your "closed case", is specific blasphemy against the God of the bible, denying His Son.
Islam is the opposite of Christianity.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

You also deny the blood that bought you. That is the most deadly denial in the Islam. Denying Jesus and the historical record. It is contrary to the entire purpose of Christ and the content of the new Testament.

[Pete]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.   2  The same was in the beginning with God.    3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.    4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.    5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.    6  There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.    7  The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.   8  He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.    9  [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.    10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.    11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.   12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:    13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.    14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

http://www.islamandthetruth.com/#gospel_of_john

[Summadat]

It is interesting to see how your answers to different questions directly conflict and contradict your argument for other issues:

You start off quoting: 'The knowledge of the holy spirit is not given unto the natural man...'

- This was your argument because I pointed out John 5:41- 'I do not accept praise from men...'. I quoted this to show you that even though you worship Jesus, he already stated in the very book that you take knowledge from, that he does not and will not accept your worship.  Since you could not provide and will NEVER be able to provide sufficient 'argument' against this, you resorted to 'the knowlege is...not given unto natural men...'.  You then suggested to do away with the other bibles- the ones with which you do not agree- even though you are not a linguistic scholar, you have your mind set on what you want to believe, and some books do that better for you.  You suggested KJV which quietly quoted the verse as 'I do not receive honor from men'... significantly different in interpretation, but you preferred it.  The only fault in it would be that if that was the real quote, then Jesus would be telling a BIG lie, because everyone in his congregation honored him.  So in one version, he denies men's praise (something that is consistent with 'do not call me good, none is good except God, and 'worship God alone, etc etc), or that men do not honor him- which is just a lie.  You chose the lie over the inconvenient truth.

The contradiction in you bringing up such a quote, to refute my understanding, is that you your very self is a natural man- unless you claim yourself to be more than just a man- which would make you either a liar or a crazy person.  So that quote that you deliver also carries with it implications that you cannot understand the bible yourself!- Not the best quote to bring if your testimony comes from your interpretation of the bible.

Next, in prior arguments, you stated that Jesus had existed from the beginning of time, that he is God.  Now you asked :
'If God wasn't Jesus' Father, and Jesus wasn't God's Son, then who is Jesus Father?'

The bold contradiction here lies with you claiming Jesus existed in the beginning, and then later saying that he was begotten- which means that a 'begetter' would have to be present before Jesus, making it impossible for Jesus to have existed in the beginning and then later being brought into existence after the beginning.  How could he be begotten if he was always present?  Well, now your quote of 'knowledge not being given to natural men' begins to make more sense- if you apply that quote to yourself.

Next: The question: 'If God wasn't Jesus' Father, and Jesus wasn't God's Son, then who is Jesus Father?' brings to issues many things:
A- Your bible states that God is also the Father of Adam, which would make a square contradiction with 'only begotten son'.

B- Adam had no natural fathers either- so then your argument for Jesus' 'miraculous birth' would seem small when compared to Adam having neither mother nor father!

C- Just as miraculous as Adam, Eve herself had neither father nor mother! So there are already two human beings with a far more complex and miraculous existence than Jesus'.  I myself believe in Jesus' miraculous birth, but I do not make a big deal of it because God does far greater things than these!

D-  The Angels, even Satan, has no parents! How than do you consider these creation? Aren't the Angels Heavenly creatures? But Jesus was an Earthly creature.  Does that make God beget all of these creations?  No! He Creates at Will, and when He Decrees a matter, He simply Say to it 'Be' and it is!

E- Your bible claims Jesus said : 'call no man on earth your father', but he goes on to say that people that go into the kingdom of heaven will be his 'mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters'.  I am sure that you would not take this statement literally- as all of them giving birth to him, or being his kin- why? Well because God Has no partners, nor is there anything like Him, and He is Free of all Creation.

You venture on to admit:
'I agree I put it inadequately.
Should have said something more like God caused Jesus to become manifest in the flesh, revealing His purpose to save mankind. God and Jesus are one'

There is ONE single verse in the bible that states 'I and the Father are One'.  But you have misused it squanderingly.  Because, not too much after that verse, there is also verses that declare:
'The Father is Greater than me (Jesus)', and 'You have never seen God'...and 'pray to God who is Unseen...'
and
'I am in the Father, and you are in me, and I am in you, and we will all be one'
- but anyone with sense knows that they can never become God, nor can they ever be one with God- except in message of worship. This statement can never be construed as literal, as I am SURE you will agree- because it suits your argument of convenience.  I only wish that you would be more inclined to the truth than to interpretation and opinions.


and
'how can the messenger be greater than the one who sent him...?'
which goes hand in hand with
'I was sent to (do so and so)', and 'I only do what I was sent to do' and

In another argument you seemed to have pointed out an important fact: that we should only say about God those things which He Says about Himself'  We cannot define God.  We cannot say things about God that He does not Say about Himself, as this could amount to blasphemy.  And then you stuffed your foot in your mouth- why, I don't know.  But I beg you to show me in the bible, or elsewhere, references where God told man that He and Jesus are the same, or are one, or are equal.  Or that God dies on the cross. or anything Jesus is his 'Begotten Son'.

Rather, Paul himself testify to these matters, coming in the name of Jesus.  If Moses was a true Prophet- coming in the name of God, and declaring to worship Only God.  And Abraham, and John the Baptist, and Jonah, and Zakariya, and Jesus, and Muhammad...and Paul comes in the name of Jesus and declares that Jesus is god incarnate, and such matters- there is a great err in this trend of prophethood- thus Paul's work would and should be looked at with much more skepticism.  Jesus said he did not come to change the Law of the Prophets- Worship God alone.  Paul did change that.

Then you say that ' muslims are evil because we deny the crucifixion and lineage of Jesus'.  Your own bible states the lineage of Jesus as David- and you find fault with the muslims? What next, you will rewrite the bible and remove everything from it that does not agree with your assumptions, and change the words to suit your beliefs?  You said that Jesus mission was to die on the cross for everyone's sin.  But it is not surprising that in your own bible:

John 18:14It was Caiaphas who had advised the Jews that it would be expedient that one man should die for the people[/u].[/b]

- Who wrote the bible? The Jews.  Now it was advised to them that one man die for the sins of all men.  Some other versions of the bible are not so generous.  Also notable was that Caiaphas was one of the High priests who plotted Jesus' crucifixion.  So... your 'blood for sins' theory is only backed up by a devious man who plotted to kill the man you call god.  Yet you pay a blind eye to these inconvenient truths.

I presented you with multiple proofs, and your objection to my religion is that we deny the crucifixion, and that we deny Jesus as 'literal son of God'.  Both those things are neither in your bible.  Perhaps you should deny christianity also.  You also don't like the 'pillaging, murdering...religion'.  Because even your Jesus said that he came to wreak havoc.  So I am SURE that the violence is not your objection, but a devoid excuse.  But ask of any human being that have met a muslim- they are the kindest of people.  Not just any 'arab' because I will not point to GW Bush, and since he is a christian, blame your religion for his actions. 

[Pete]

It is interesting to see how your answers to different questions directly conflict and contradict your argument for other issues:

You start off quoting: 'The knowledge of the holy spirit is not given unto the natural man...'

- This was your argument because I pointed out John 5:41- 'I do not accept praise from men...'. I quoted this to show you that even though you worship Jesus, he already stated in the very book that you take knowledge from, that he does not and will not accept your worship.

You profoundly misunderstand. I worship God the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus is a part of God, not separate:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
You deny Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross so you remain in sin without remission.

Since you could not provide and will NEVER be able to provide sufficient 'argument' against this,...

But the only reason you argue against God's Word, and reject the entirety of the New Testament, the new covenant, is because of a false prophet.

.... you resorted to 'the knowlege is...not given unto natural men...'.

It is simply what is. The bible says the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God.

You then suggested to do away with the other bibles- the ones with which you do not agree-....

No I didn't. I suggested doing away with bibles that are based on a corrupt 19th century Greek text written by two spiritualists named Westcott and Hort.
Even Logsden, who wrote the preface to the NASV renounced all he had to do with it:

"I must under God renounce every attachment to the New American Standard,
... I'm afraid I'm in trouble with the Lord ... We laid the groundwork; I wrote the format; I helped interview some of the translators; I sat with the translator; I wrote the preface ...
I'm in trouble; I can't refute these arguments; its wrong, it's terribly wrong; it's frighteningly wrong; and what am I going to do about it? ... I can no longer ignore these criticisms I am hearing and I can't refute them ...

When questions began to reach me at first I was quite offended.  However, in attempting to answer, I began to sense that something was not right about the NASV.  Upon investigation, I wrote my very dear friend, Mr. Lockman, explaining that I was forced to renounce all attachment to the NASV ... The product is grievous to my heart and helps to complicate matters in these already troublous times .. The deletions are absolutely frightening ... there are so many ... Are we so naive that we do not suspect Satanic deception in all of this? ..."

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/new_age_bible_versions.htm

Try these Yahoo searches:
westcott hort ghostly guild
westcott hort new age
westcott hort spiritualists
westcott hort satanists
westcott hort hermes club
westcott hort blavatsky
westcott hort nestle
ubs hebrew kittel hitler

You simply want to pretend that it is about me Sum, but it is about the Word of God.
You reject the Son of God and you reject His shed blood. You are antichrist as was your false prophet.

... even though you are not a linguistic scholar, .....

That's the whole point. Indoctrinated so-called "scholars" - that is "authority" - are WHAT HAPPENED to God's Word, each grinding his own doctrinal axe. Following describes the most tragic error I find in Muslims who close their eyes to the truth and remain in satan's grip of Islam:

Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

The King James Version is the most widely accepted version, and the best English translation. Very few Christians don't own a KJV, whether they own other New Age versions or not.
The KJV in conjunction with a Textus Receptus Greek (majority Greek text) is all I have needed, with a little help from Strong's definitions.

One only has to have an interest in truth Sum. Your interest lies in tearing down God's Word, not understanding it.

The bible isn't complicated, but does require a little effort.

.....you have your mind set on what you want to believe,...

I do indeed. I want to believe the 1600 year record of the steady revelation of God to mankind through all of the prophets and legions of witnesses.
You want to believe the 23 year record of a 7th century false prophet that IS THE OPPOSITE of that revelation of God through His prophets and His Word.

... and some books do that better for you.  You suggested KJV which quietly quoted the verse as 'I do not receive honor from men'... significantly different in interpretation, but you preferred it.

You don't understand HOW to honor God Sum:

John 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

You believe the opposite:
Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Now who do you suppose would teach the opposite Sum?

The only fault in it would be that if that was the real quote, then Jesus would be telling a BIG lie, because everyone in his congregation honored him.  So in one version, he denies men's praise .....

You have to understand why God sent His Son, in order to be able to honor the Father which sent Him.

.....(something that is consistent with 'do not call me good, none is good except God, and 'worship God alone, etc etc), or that men do not honor him- which is just a lie.  You chose the lie over the inconvenient truth.

The lie you choose is a STAND-ALONE religion of a 7th century pillaging, plundering, raping, imperialistic conquering false prophet.
THE OPPOSITE of everything that God revealed through His Word about His plan for mankind in the Christian era.

The contradiction in you bringing up such a quote, to refute my understanding, is that you your very self is a natural man- unless you claim yourself to be more than just a man- which would make you either a liar or a crazy person.  So that quote that you deliver also carries with it implications that you cannot understand the bible yourself!- Not the best quote to bring if your testimony comes from your interpretation of the bible.

It's about what THE BIBLE SAYS, not about my interpretation.
You have AGAIN illustrated just how that passage applies to yourself Sum.

1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Over and over you reject the bible in favor of Mohammedanism. The Word of God is foolishness to you.
I have shown you the verse in context before but you have shown you still cannot understand it through natural eyes. Perhaps bolding will help. The definition of a natural man is one who is not filled with the Holy Ghost - the Comforter - which is sent in Jesus name to all those that BELEVE in Him.
You don't even believe in the Cross. Even secular historians believe that historical event, Sum.
Indeed you can see that Islam's very goal is about gaining the kingdoms of this world. These are satan's kingdoms that Islam seeks to control with the abomination of sharia law.

That's the problem with your trying to proof text your way into making the 1600 year record of the Word of God a lie, and the 23 year record of a 7th century reprobate the truth.

[Pete]

Next, in prior arguments, you stated that Jesus had existed from the beginning of time,....

It's not about me Sum. It is about WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. Through your foolishness you accept parts that agree with Mohammedanism and reject those that don't. You yourself should see that if you can't depend on any part of the bible, then you have rejected it entirely. Which you have aptly demonstrated that you have.

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

2Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:19  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:  20  Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Genesis 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

John 17:24   Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

.... that he is God.

That's Jesus claim:
John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
The Jews wanted to stone Him for making the claim.

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Now you asked :
'If God wasn't Jesus' Father, and Jesus wasn't God's Son, then who is Jesus Father?'

The bold contradiction here lies with you claiming Jesus existed in the beginning, and then later saying that he was begotten- .....

Not a contradiction at all. He was begotten, of the virgin Mary, WHEN HE WAS MADE MANIFEST TO MANKIND.
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

You see contradiction through the eyes of a natural man, because you wish the bible fit Islam. But it doesn't. It is THE OPPOSITE.

...which means that a 'begetter' would have to be present before Jesus, making it impossible for Jesus to have existed in the beginning and then later being brought into existence after the beginning.  How could he be begotten if he was always present?  Well, now your quote of 'knowledge not being given to natural men' begins to make more sense- if you apply that quote to yourself.

But you continue to demonstrate your blindness. And a big reason for it:
Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

You, just like Deedat, are thinking your way to hell.

Next: The question: 'If God wasn't Jesus' Father, and Jesus wasn't God's Son, then who is Jesus Father?' brings to issues many things:
A- Your bible states that God is also the Father of Adam, which would make a square contradiction with 'only begotten son'.

God is my Father too. Those that are in Jesus Christ are also sons of God.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

You fail to make a distinction between that sense and the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God, as detailed in the verses at the top of this thread.
You can't allow yourself to recognize the distinction, because of Mohammed.

B- Adam had no natural fathers either- so then your argument for Jesus' 'miraculous birth' would seem small when compared to Adam having neither mother nor father!

Your opinion is irrelevant, isn't it. Purely the product of carnal sophist discussion and mentality like Deedat.
The miracle of Jesus is that God sent His Son into the world to save all mankind from our sins. If you don't repent you will die in your sins.

C- Just as miraculous as Adam, Eve herself had neither father nor mother! So there are already two human beings with a far more complex and miraculous existence than Jesus'.

More sophism distracting you away from truth.

I myself believe in Jesus' miraculous birth, but I do not make a big deal of it because God does far greater things than these!

Don't make a big deal? You reject Him as the Son of God in spite of the 120 or so verses that declare Him to be and you reject His shed blood on the Cross. You are antichrist.

D-  The Angels, even Satan, has no parents! How than do you consider these creation? Aren't the Angels Heavenly creatures? But Jesus was an Earthly creature.  Does that make God beget all of these creations?  No! He Creates at Will, and when He Decrees a matter, He simply Say to it 'Be' and it is!

The Word of God explains in a prior post of this thread: http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=55.msg290#msg290

E- Your bible claims Jesus said : 'call no man on earth your father', but he goes on to say that people that go into the kingdom of heaven will be his 'mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters'.  I am sure that you would not take this statement literally- as all of them giving birth to him, or being his kin- why? Well because God Has no partners, nor is there anything like Him, and He is Free of all Creation.

Jesus, like the Spirit of God are part of God. Not separate from Him.

You venture on to admit:
'I agree I put it inadequately.
Should have said something more like God caused Jesus to become manifest in the flesh, revealing His purpose to save mankind. God and Jesus are one'

There is ONE single verse in the bible that states 'I and the Father are One'.  But you have misused it squanderingly. 

Not at all. That is in the Greek neuter gender. They are of one essence. In the many verses above you can see the co-existence of Jesus and God from before the foundation of the world.

Because, not too much after that verse, there is also verses that declare:
'The Father is Greater than me (Jesus)', and 'You have never seen God'...and 'pray to God who is Unseen...'
and
'I am in the Father, and you are in me, and I am in you, and we will all be one'
- but anyone with sense .....

You can't have any "sense" of the things of the Spirit of God as you have repeatedly proven. You trade truth for Deedat style sophism, trying to justify your false prophet that is the opposite.

....knows that they can never become God, nor can they ever be one with God- except in message of worship.

You cannot understand until and unless you repent. That's what the Holy Ghost - the Comforter - is about. God IN us.
1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Holy Ghost is sent by the Father in Jesus name.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I've even seen a preposterous Islamic YouTube trying to make the claim that a pillaging, plundering, murderer that came along 5 centuries later is the Comforter. Can you imagine that foolishness?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBTfzdjQlQ

This statement can never be construed as literal, as I am SURE you will agree- because it suits your argument of convenience.

It is literal as the verses above show. The Holy Ghost is God IN believers.
Believers as a group are the temple of God. That is what Christianity is. The temple that Jesus rebuilt in 3 days.
John 2:19  Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.  20  Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?  21  But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

We are the body of Christ and the temple of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[Pete]

I only wish that you would be more inclined to the truth than to interpretation and opinions.

That's why I respond with God's Word rather than an interpretation of it.

and
'how can the messenger be greater than the one who sent him...?'
which goes hand in hand with
'I was sent to (do so and so)', and 'I only do what I was sent to do' and

Jesus Christ was fully man when He was on earth.

In another argument you seemed to have pointed out an important fact: that we should only say about God those things which He Says about Himself'  We cannot define God.  We cannot say things about God that He does not Say about Himself, as this could amount to blasphemy.  And then you stuffed your foot in your mouth- why, I don't know.  But I beg you to show me in the bible, or elsewhere, references where God told man that He and Jesus are the same, or are one, or are equal.

The many verses cited earlier speak to their co-existence.

Or that God dies on the cross. or anything Jesus is his 'Begotten Son'.

The over hundred verses declaring Jesus to be God's Son, and 10 or so declaring Him to be the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of the Father, covered in another thread, are why I believe Jesus is the Son of God.

That Jesus died on the Cross is the subject of Old Testament prophecy and New Testament fulfillment. It is the story that is repeated through the witness of the Apostles. You must consider the Apostles and Jesus to be liars to follow Islam. Read one of the Gospels. Each one is ABOUT Jesus, birth, ministry, death on the Cross and resurrection. Start with the Gospel of John: http://www.islamandthetruth.com/#gospel_of_john

It's hard to imagine such self imposed blindness to the truth. Actually it is spirit imposed, not self.

Rather, Paul himself testify to these matters, coming in the name of Jesus.  If Moses was a true Prophet- coming in the name of God, and declaring to worship Only God.  And Abraham, and John the Baptist, and Jonah, and Zakariya, and Jesus, and Muhammad...and Paul comes in the name of Jesus and declares that Jesus is god incarnate, and such matters- there is a great err in this trend of prophethood- thus Paul's work would and should be looked at with much more skepticism.  Jesus said he did not come to change the Law of the Prophets- Worship God alone.  Paul did change that.

Then you say that ' muslims are evil because we deny the crucifixion and lineage of Jesus'.

That is a lie. Where do I say Muslims are evil, except perhaps the ones that perpetrate murder and mayhem around the world? I believe that most Muslims are peaceful, but they are apostates in the eyes of the fundamentalists in the cradle of the religion, that really understand Islam.

Muslims are deluded into believing they worship God, when they actually worship the opposite. The Quran is the opposite of the bible, and even the opposite of the historical record of Jesus death on the Cross.

Your own bible states the lineage of Jesus as David- and you find fault with the muslims? What next, you will rewrite the bible and remove everything from it that does not agree with your assumptions, and change the words to suit your beliefs?

That's what Islam does. Not Christians.

You said that Jesus mission was to die on the cross for everyone's sin.

You keep pretending that it is about what I say. But it is about what the Word of God says:

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

But it is not surprising that in your own bible:

John 18:14It was Caiaphas who had advised the Jews that it would be expedient that one man should die for the people[/u].[/b]

- Who wrote the bible? The Jews.  Now it was advised to them that one man die for the sins of all men.  Some other versions of the bible are not so generous.  Also notable was that Caiaphas was one of the High priests who plotted Jesus' crucifixion.  So... your 'blood for sins' theory is only backed up by a devious man who plotted to kill the man you call god.  Yet you pay a blind eye to these inconvenient truths.

But that's foolish. Blood for sins isn't a "theory", it IS WHAT THE BIBLE IS ABOUT. Old Testament and New. What do you think the Solomonic temple was for? I had no idea you were so ignorant to the scriptures.

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Reject Jesus Christ Sum, and you will die wallowing in your sins, with Jesus Christ as your judge.
Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

I presented you with multiple proofs, and your objection to my religion is that we deny the crucifixion,...

It's not about my objections Sum:
Hebrews 10:29 Of HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, WHO HATH TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, and HATH COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, wherewith he was sanctified, AN UNHOLY THING, and hath DONE DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

.... and that we deny Jesus as 'literal son of God'.

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=56.0
Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Both those things are neither in your bible.

Your blathering on doesn't change the Word of God.
God Himself hath made you a liar:
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Islam rejects the record that God gave of his Son. Islam is antichrist:

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH the Father and THE SON. 23 WHOSOEVER DENIETH THE SON, THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

You are an antichrist.

  Perhaps you should deny christianity also.  You also don't like the 'pillaging, murdering...religion'.  Because even your Jesus said that he came to wreak havoc.

That is because there are those that are IN Christ and those that are antichrist. Even within a family.
You choose antichrist.

So I am SURE that the violence is not your objection, but a devoid excuse.

The most violent thing Jesus did was overturn the tables of the moneychangers.
The opposite of the pillage, plunder, murder and imperialistic conquest of the false prophet Mohammed.

Genesis 12:2  And I will make of thee [Abram] a great nation [Israel], and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:  3  And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Hadith: Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh servant of Allah, oh Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Sura 2:223 your wives are as tilth (farmland) unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will...

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Sura 9:5  But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war);...

Sura 9:123  O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers . . .

Matthew 7:16  Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Sura 24:33: ...But force not your maids to prostitution WHEN they desire chastity...

But ask of any human being that have met a muslim- they are the kindest of people.

Sorry. Your statement is not only false, it is preposterous. You are living in la la land.
Are some Muslims kind? I don't doubt it.
Are Muslims as a group "the kindest of people"? That is ridiculous!

How do you explain the murder, slaughter and imperialistic conquest of nearly the whole known world of the Islamic first Jihad? Those weren't Muslims?
Look at Saudi Arabia, the model of sharia law. Police come if you don't show up for prayers and women need permits to leave their house.

The Mufti of Jerusalem was a right hand of Hitler in his genocide of the Jews. I recommend the "Important Videos" page to help you overcome your preposterous delusions about "Muslims" in general.
Consider the words of hatred the imams teach for the kafir. The 3-year old trained to call Jews apes and pigs.
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=113.0

Why have there have been over 11,000 deadly terror attacks in the name of Islam, around the world, just since 9-11?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Not just any 'arab' because I will not point to GW Bush, and since he is a christian, blame your religion for his actions. 

Difficult thing, war. I am considerably conflicted in these regards.

If you saw the next door neighbor lady being knocked down, beaten, and about to be raped by an assailant, would you consider it a matter purely between the woman and her attacker? Would you stand with your arms at your sides?

Perhaps you haven't noticed but the U.S. has won the freedom and self-determination of the people of Iraq. That freedom is theirs to loose from here. I have little doubt whatsoever that they will loose it.

How could two separate factions of antichrist ever be expected to prosper in peace? They never have.
And consider the trillions of dollars of the world's wealth that has been transfered there, without their having had to lift a finger to earn it, and then consider the relative 3rd world conditions that the average Joe lives under in Iran and Saudi Arabia, for example.

That being said, I am not so naive to understand that a reason we are there is oil interest.
If our mission was purely for the good of mankind we would have begun by liberating Africa where over 2 million poor souls have been slain at the hands of Islam in the Sudan alone.

[believergod3]

i just want to ask all Christians logically question ,If you told that Jesus is God and he also the son of God,so that Mary become pregnant from her son!! is it right result?

[Pete]

i just want to ask all Christians logically question ,If you told that Jesus is God and he also the son of God,so that Mary become pregnant from her son!! is it right result?

You are trying to find God with your own mind. He isn't about what we think or wish He is.
But your question is even divorced from logic.

We can only know God by how He chose to manifest Himself to us through His Word.
But let's try a little logic, from a place where we find common ground.
We both agree that God put Jesus in the virgin Mary, and that Jesus is Mary's son.

So then logically, who would Jesus' father be?

We don't even need to rely on logic for that simple answer:
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=father&t=KJV&page=39
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=father&t=KJV&page=38
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=father&t=KJV&page=37

[Pete]

i just want to ask all Christians logically question ,If you told that Jesus is God and he also the son of God,so that Mary become pregnant from her son!! is it right result?

To answer the last part of your question, we don't have to wonder about this, or create confusion for ourselves by trying to understand God with our human minds and failed logic. He tells us:

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

2Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

King David was on earth a thousand years before Jesus Christ was made made manifest in the flesh on earth.
To put it in terms you might be more familiar with, when God said "be" He had Jesus conceived as a Jew, when He was with us in the flesh.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[OneMuslimUmmah]

naliakbar video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpgRIGRbF8s&watch_response
naliakbar suggests that Christians believe that God had carnal sexual realtions with Mary.

The reason Muslims have to make such a preposterous claim and deny the obvious use of the term begotten, is because their illiterate prophet, always the opposite of the bible when it matters, recited:

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Surah 112:2 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

Consider the term begat:

1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce: Violence begets more violence.

If God didn't beget Jesus, then who caused Jesus to be? (on earth) How did Mary become pregnant with Jesus Christ?

Muslims believe Jesus was uniquely created by God in the Virgin Mary, yet have to deny it at the same time claiming that God didn't cause Jesus to be put in Mary.

If God created put Jesus in Mary by saying "be" and she conceived Jesus, then how did God not cause Jesus to come to earth?
Who is Jesus Father? http://www.islamandthetruth.com/god_the_father.htm
If God is Jesus Father, isn't Jesus God's Son?

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.



Old Testament prophecy:
Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

New Testament:

Jhn 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jhn 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

Jhn 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hbr 5:5  So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Psalm 2:7 is referring to David.

Therefore Jesus is not the only begotten son of God.

[Peter]

Psalm 2:7 is referring to David.

Therefore Jesus is not the only begotten son of God.

Psalm 2 is the first of the Messianic psalms. Let me quote Halley's Bible Handbook so you don't think it's my opinion:

"Many Psalms, written a thousand years before Christ, contain references to Christ, that are wholly inappplicable to Any Other Person in history. Some references to David seem to point forward to the Coming King in David's Family. Besides passages that are clearly Messianic, there are many expressions which seem to be veiled Foreshadowings of the Messiah. Psalms most obviously Messianic are:
Psalm 2: Deity and Universal Reign of the Messiah."

Halley then goes on to list Psalm 8, 16 ,22, 45, 72, 89, 110, 118, and 132.

We can confirm Halley's view with this verse:

Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


In the New Testament we read in several passages:
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

God made Jesus of the "seed of David".  David was a powerful Jewish leader but the problem with that is he lived a thousand years before Christ was born. Also you and I agree that Jesus was born of a virgin.
Obviously rather than thinking in terms of David's literal seed we understand it as a Hebraism. In this case an expression that means God made Jesus of David's Jewish lineage. Made Jesus a Jew.


But what about the other 9 verses OMU?

[vaheedkhan]

Tell the jentyls, the christians that is better not they say that god has a begoten a son, nor god is begoten. Thats the problem...

Forgot and made juses as a god made three in one, including spirit.

This where it comes that you wont understand whats spirit is. This topic will take long time of explaining. Your heart should be pure and your mind to understand this. Not easy. I would but it would be difficult or heavy to understand. But then again, you will say or who ever that we havent answer it and we avoiding it. Just god the lord in heaven one day makes understand those that god will guide.

[Peter]

Tell the jentyls, the christians that is better not they say that god has a begoten a son, nor god is begoten. Thats the problem...

Forgot and made juses as a god made three in one, including spirit.

This where it comes that you wont understand whats spirit is. This topic will take long time of explaining. Your heart should be pure and your mind to understand this. Not easy. I would but it would be difficult or heavy to understand. But then again, you will say or who ever that we havent answer it and we avoiding it. Just god the lord in heaven one day makes understand those that god will guide.

You mean it befuddled a 6th century illiterate Bedouin mind.
God has a spirit.

Exd 35:31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

Sura 32.9: But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of his spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding):.

By Muslim measure of Christians 1+1=2
By Muslim measure of themselves 1+1=1

Even Muslims are taught that we can't conceive of God and His ways. Yet Mohammedans believe that God must be as simple to figure out as your next door neighbor. That's from Mohammed's 6th century illiterate child-like mind. Here is God's Word on the subject:

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!