Author Topic: Who Died on the Cross in Islam?  (Read 18797 times)

Peter

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Who Died on the Cross in Islam?
« on: September 02, 2009, 06:56:25 AM »
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Who died on the cross?
What do Muslims believe happened to Jesus?

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

I encourage everyone in this forum to inquire of Muslims as to just who did die on the cross.
Muslims, if you don't know offhand, please ask your imams and get back with us.

How did it only "appear" to the hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of eye witnesses that Jesus died on the cross?
Did a substitute die in His place?
Did God raise Him straight up to heaven? If so when? Before the crucifixion, during, or after?
Where was Jesus during the crucifixion?
Where was Jesus shortly thereafter?
What about long thereafter?
Did Jesus die?
Where is He buried?
Will Jesus die?
When?

While not a single Christian over two thousand years has a doubt about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (or they wouldn't be a Christian), and Jews don't doubt that a man named Jesus Christ was killed, ironically we find Muslims in the following posts to be perfectly described as "...those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow..."

[addition 3-19-2011]

Muhammad filled his followers with complete resolve as to what to DISbelieve, while leaving a complete vacuum as to WHO DID die on the cross. Causing Muslims to reject the blood that would save them.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mat 26:28    For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Rom 3:25    Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

So who can we presume inspired Muhammad to cause his followers to reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
_______________________

[addition 3-20-2011]

Excerpt

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1209.0

"Here, I present Simon the magician's idea about Jesus, which Hyppolytus reported in  "The Refutation of all heresies:"

Jesus Christ being transformed, and being assimilated to the rulers and powers and angels, came for the restoration (of things). And so (it was that Jesus) appeared as man, when in reality he was not a man. And (so it was) that likewise he suffered, though not actually undergoing suffering, but appearing to the Jews to do so.[xviii][18]

The idea that the people crucified someone whom God made to resemble Jesus was embraced by some heresy-believing groups which were known to have immoral values, such as free sex and connections with occultism. Waraqa belonged to one of these cults.

Waraqa was one of the founders of the group called Ahnaf. In the first narration of the life of Mohammed, written by Ibn Hisham in the 8th century A.D., we read:

The Honafa', or Ahnaf, was a small group  started when four Sabians at Mecca agreed. Those four were Zayd bin Amru bin Nafil, Waraqa bin Naufal, Ubaydullah bin Jahsh, and Uthman Bin al-Huwayrith.[xix][19][1]"
___________________________

[edit add 8-17-11]

4.  "He appeared, then, on earth as a man, to the nations of these powers, and wrought miracles. Wherefore he did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them."
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.ii.xxv.html

Sound familiar?

Simon Magnus, or Simon "the Sorcerer" or Simon "the Magician" was dubbed as the "father of heresies" by the early church fathers. Much more on Muhammad's Gnosticism and docetism via his wife Khadijah's cousin Waraqa bin Nufal the Ebionite occult priest here...
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2716.0
__________________________

Peter

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2009, 07:03:03 AM »
Here's how one Muslim weighed in:

"I believe that a true disciple of Jesus took up the cross and died for him knowing that Jesus would raise him again from the dead. I also believe that the true disciple was not one of the twelve, was not even a Jew but was in fact a Gentile.
The Jews claim that they killed Jesus and proved that he was not a prophet of God according to their scripture. They also accused him of blasphemy after he told them that the Gentiles would take their place at the right side of God:
"Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy." Matthew 26.64,65

I believe that Jesus proved the Jews to be unworthy and that the Gentile had more faith and were more deserving."
________________

You can visit that quote in the context of the conversation here:
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=601.msg2471#msg2471

Now consider Mohammed's words again: "...those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow...".

Christians harbor no doubts about Jesus' crucifixion. Likely most Jews don't either. Even honest secular historians don't. Yet the post above - absent even any support by Mohammed - displays precisely the elements that Mohammed accused the rest of us of harboring.

Peter

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2009, 07:33:01 AM »
"There aren't any eye witness reports of the crucifixion in the Bible, so where did you find eye witness reports?"

Peter

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2009, 07:33:36 AM »
"If I recall correctly, Narrations state that There was a guy who used to oppress jesus PBUH So Allah turned the guy into His Likeness (When Exactly I don't remember Maybe during the time of carrying the cross maybe Before his Capture...) and the Guy was Executed instead of Jesus PBUH so it was made to appear that Jesus PBUH was but he wasn't.

I'll try to google what happened hehe.. If anyone knows the detailed narrations please post I can't remember what they taught us in elementary school Hehe."

Peter

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 07:34:59 AM »
"None of the writers of the Gospels witnessed the crucifixion, and one or two of them never even met Jesus.

Where did the eye witnesses come from?"

Peter

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 07:36:45 AM »
"While explaining the words of the Qur'an: (but they were deluded by resemblance), master exegete, Dahhak says: It so transpired that, following the intention of Jews to kill Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) his disciples assembled at a given place. Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) joined them there. It was Iblis who gave the address of Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) to the execution squad standing ready for the mission. Four thousand men surrounded the suspected house. Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) said to his disciples: 'Is one of you willing to go out and be killed and then be in Paradise with me?' One of them offered to do so. Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) gave him his shirt and head-cover. Then, cast on him was the resemblance of Jesus and as soon as he came out, the Jews, believing him to be Jesus, caught him and crucified him, and Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) was lifted. (Qurtubi)
According to some reports, the Jews had sent a person known to Arabs as Teetlanoos to kill Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S). He did not find Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) in the house for he was already lifted by Allah towards Himself. So, when this person came out of the house, he had been made to resemble the looks of Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S). The Jews took him to be Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S). Thus, they took away their own man and killed him. (Mazhari)
There is room for whichever of the situations came to pass - the Holy Qur'an has not determined any particular situation. Therefore, Allah alone knows what really happened. However, this sentence of the Holy Qur'an seen with other exegetical reports does yield the common factor that the Jews and Christians were subjected to compelling delusion. The event as it took shape remained hidden from them, though they did advance all sorts of claims based on their conjectures which only landed them into mutual differences. This is what the Holy Qur'an points out to in the following words:

And those who disputed in this matter are certainly in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it, but they follow whims.

It means that they do not have certitude based on any true knowledge. The diverse claims put forward by those who have differed in the case of Masih (A.S) are simply based on doubt and conjecture. The truth of the matter is that they certainly did not kill Masih (A.S), rather Allah lifted him towards Himself.
According to some other reports, when some of them woke up to what had happened, they said, 'We seem to have killed our own man, for the man we have put to death resembles Masih (A.S) in face only but not in the rest of the body. Now, if this man we have killed is Masih (A.S) where, then, is our man? And if this is our man where, then, is Masih (A.S)?'
Verse 158, part of which was referred to immediately earlier, ends at: : (And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise) carrying a significant message. It means that the planning of Jews to kill Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) was insignificant as matched against the Power of Allah who has taken it upon Himself to protect Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S). Might and mastery are His domain. If materialists in their single-track isolation, remain incapable of understanding the reality of the 'lifting off of Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S), that is their own limitation. As for Allah, He is All-Wise - everything He does is based on wisdom and fitness to whatever end is desired.
Then comes the finale of the subject in verse 159 beginning with the words: (And there is not one among the People of the Book but shall certainly believe in him (Jesus) before he (Jesus) dies, and on the Day of Doom, he shall be a witness against them). It means: Though, at this time, so blinded by malice and envy are these people that they are unable to see reality as it is, hold false ideas about Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) and, in addition to that, they are denying the prophethood of Sayyidna Muhammad al-Mustafa Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam: Peace be upon him yet, a time is to come when their eyes will open up and they will realize that all their notions about Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) and Sayyidna Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam: Peace be upon him were totally false.
One explanation of this verse (159), which appears in Bayan al-Qur'an by Maulana Ashraf 'Ali Thanavi, is that the pronoun in the Qur'anic word (mawtihi: his death) be attributed to the People of the Book. The verse, in that sense, would mean that those Jews, when they see a glimpse of Barzakh (the state between death and resurrection) moments before their death, they will readily believe in the prophethood of Sayyidna Isa (A.S) though, their believing at that point of time will be of no use to them, very much useless like the believing of Pharaoh which he did while drowning.
The second tafsir (explanation) which has been adopted by a large number of Sahabah and Tabi'in (the Companions and their Successors) and which also has the support of authentic Hadith maintains that the pronoun in the word 'mawtihi' refers back to Sayyidna Masih (A.S) and, in that light, the verse means that the People of the Book of this time, be they Jews or Christians, do not believe in Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) in the real sense. The Jews just do not accept him as a prophet, rather, they accuse him of being, God forbid, a liar and imposter! As for the Christians, some of them despite claiming to believe in him, reached a level of ignorance which, like the Jews, led them to accept that Sayyidna Isa (A.S) was crucified and killed. Then, there were others among them who, in their excess of belief, went out of the limits when they took him to be God and Son of God - but, says the verse of the Qur'an, though they do not believe in the prophethood of Sayyidna Isa (A.S) at this time as they should; but the time will come, close to the Day of Doom, when he will reappear on this earth and all Peoples of the Book will believe in him genuinely and authentically. All Christians will become Muslims holding true beliefs. The hostile among the Jews will be killed, the rest will become Muslims. That will be the time when Kufr will be banished from the world along with whatever forms it may have. Islam will finally reign supreme on the earth.
Reproduced below is a report from Sayyidna Abu Hurairah Radhi-Allahu Anh: Allah be pleased with him:

"The Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam: Peace be upon him said: The son of Maryam shall definitely reappear as a just ruler. He will kill the Anti-Christ and the swine. He will break the Cross and worship shall be .made for Allah alone, the one Lord of all the worlds. Then, Sayyidna Abu Hurairah said: Read, if you wish, the verse of the Qur'an - (159) which mentions that not one person from out of the People of the Book will remain without having believed in Sayyidna 'Isa before his death. Sayyidna Abu Hurairah, then, said with stress: Before the death of 'Isa (A.S) and he repeated it three times. (Qurtubi)

This Tafsir (explanation) of the verse under reference stands proved from a highly venerated Companion such as Sayyidna Abu Hurairah Radhi-Allahu Anh: Allah be pleased with him on the added strength of sound chain of narrators. This report establishes that the Qur'anic words: (before his death) mean 'before the death of Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) and which explicitly determines that this verse is related to the coming of Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) close to the Qiyamah (Doomsday).
As based on this tafsir, this verse is a conclusive evidence that the death of Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) has not yet come to pass. In fact, when he is'sent down from the heaven close to Qiyamah and the wise considerations of Almighty Allah working behind his coming reach their ultimate fruition, it will be only then that his death will occur on this very earth.
This is also supported by the following verse of Surah al-Zukhruf (43:61): (that is, Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) is a sign of the Doomsday. So, do not doubt it and listen to what I say.) A larger number of commentators has said that the pronoun in the Qur'anic word , at this point refers back to Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) and it means that Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) is a sign of Qiyamah (Doomsday). From here we learn that this verse reports the coming of the Masih (A.S), that is, he will appear close to the Qiyamah and his appearance will be one of the signs of it.
Also worth attention is yet another reading of the Qur'anic word (la'ilmun) in this verse (43:61) which is: (la'ilmun). According to this reading the meaning becomes all the more clear because the word ('alam) with the fatha of lam means 'sign or symbol'. The following tafsir of Sayyidna 'Abdullah ibn 'Abbas Radhi-Allahu Anh: Allah be pleased with him ends added support to this view:
(About the verse: - 43:61 - Sayyidna Ibn 'Abbas reported that it refers to Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) who will come before the Qiyamah (Ibn Kathir)
In short, if we combine the statement: 'Qabla mawtihi' (Before his death - 4.159) with the authentic hadith of Sayyidna Abu Hurairah and its explanation, the truth that Sayyidna 'Isa (A.S) is alive and that he will reappear close to the Doomsday and overcome the Jews stands proved conclusively. Similarly, this view also becomes certain through the words: : 'Surely, he (Sayyidna 'Isa) is a sign of the Doomsday,' as explained by Sayyidna Ibn 'Abbas Radhi-Allahu Anh: Allah be pleased with him.
The master commentator, Ibn Kathir, while explaining the verse: cited above, has said:

"The sayings of the Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam: Peace be upon him in this connection have been reported through tawatur (in an uninterrupted succession) that he has conveyed the tidings of the coming of 'Isa (A.S) in this world before the Day of Doom as a just ruler. (Ibn Kathir)

These narrations appearing in an uninterrupted succession (mutawatir) were collected by my teacher and a great servant of Islam, Maulana Muhammad Anwar Shah al-Kashmiri. These were more than a hundred in number. This humble writer compiled this collection in Arabic and it was published way back under the title: as proposed by my respected teacher. Recently, a major Syrian scholar, Al-'Allamah 'Abd al-Fattah Abu Ghuddah has published from the city of Beirut a deluxe edition of this work with additional explanations and notes."

Peter

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 07:38:57 AM »
Pete summarized a few points and replied:

"Thank you very much for that! I need to read it a few more times to get it all. One account seems to suggest that Jesus asked one of His disciples to volunteer to go out and be crucified in His place. Then by one account Jesus face was somehow put on that disciple and he was killed on the cross.

Another report says that they came to Jesus' house but he had already been lifted to Allah, and when the guy that went in to look for Him came out, he wound up looking like Jesus when he came back out, and was crucified.

After killing the look alike they decided that his face matched Jesus, but the body didn't. But then it seems like there is no shortage of varying accounts of what happened surrounding the events of Jesus and the cross.

The surprising part, if I am understanding correctly, is that Jesus was lifted up shortly before whoever it is was crucified (as in the first two scenarios), and then is going to hang around in the heavenlies or wherever (I didn't quite get yet where Jesus is waiting) and then Jesus is going to return back to earth, after which He will die.

Does that seem peculiar to you or did I misunderstand?
Does this mean that Jesus has been a spiritual ever since shortly before the cross, but then He will return and die? Do spiritual beings die in Islam?"

Peter

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 07:39:36 AM »
"Isa :alayhis: is not in a spiritual state, but in a physical state. He was physically lifted up. He will return, live his life out, and die a natural death.

And yes, some "spiritual" beings do die, like the jinns."

Peter

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 07:43:13 AM »
"Yes but in the Quran it says,That they said (in boast):  'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.'  But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

One can understand this verse as saying, prior to the coming of the Quran, people believed Jesus died on the cross because that is how it appeared to them.  And that there was no revealed scripture saying that Jesus did die,"

Pete's reply:

Come on my friend. Haven't you read the Gospel? If not how can you speak about it? By believing what men tell you about it?

Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and GAVE UP THE GHOST, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 23:46...and having said thus, he GAVE UP THE GHOST.
John 19:30... he bowed his head, and GAVE UP THE GHOST.  

Jhn 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.  

Along with the account of His being wrapped and placed in a tomb that I covered earlier.
Let alone His reappearance to hundreds after He was resurrected when He declared:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Peter

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 08:32:41 AM »
Another Muslim forum:

"Hi,
 
[3:55]Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
 
A Muslim believes what Allah told in the Quran that He raised Jesus unto Himself and that they didnt crucify nor kill him for sure. but so it appeared to them.
 
This is the main point, the rest are details... some scholars said another person was on the cross, may be the one who petrayed Jesus. but we know that God had a plan and didnt allow them to kill Jesus Peace be upon him).
 
3:54]And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah."

Peter

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2009, 08:34:34 AM »
Hello Brother Petewaldo
I hope this article will resolve the questions you have put forth
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/did_not_die/jesus_did_not_die_03.php
Some main points are highlighted...
Jesus (pbuh) Is Not Dead
The Qur'an reveals, among many other glad tidings, that Jesus (pbuh), one of God's messengers, is not dead and was not put to death. Qur'an 3:55 and Qur'an 4:157-58 head the list of those verses that relate how Jesus (pbuh) was not killed but was raised alive to God's presence. Jesus (pbuh), who now lives in God's presence, will return to Earth during the End Times.  As the verse states: [God said:] "Jesus, I will take you back [mutawaffeeka] and raise you up [wa raafi`uka] to Me and purify you of those who are unbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection..." (Qur'an, 3:55)
The part requiring special consideration is the sentence "I will take you back [mutawaffeeka] and raise you up to Me." A close examination reveals a most important truth: The verb carries a sense that differs from what is normally meant by "to die." The word translated into English as "to die" comes from the Arabic root waffaa derived from the verb tawaffaa, which does not imply death, but rather taking the soul, or surrender. The Qur'an also reveals that taking a person's soul does not always imply death. For instance, another verse uses tawaffaa to refer not to a person's death, but to taking his or her soul while asleep: God takes the souls [of people] at death [yatawaffaa], and those who do not die [lam tamut] during their sleep. Those on whom He has passed the decree of death [al-mawt], He keeps back [from returning to life], but the rest He sends [to their bodies] for a term appointed. Verily in this are signs for those who reflect." (Qur'an, 39:42)
The word here translated as "taking back" is the same as that used in Qur'an 3:55: tawaffaa. Since a person does not actually die during the night, the word yatawaffaa here refers not to death, but to taking the soul at night. If tawaffaa were being used in the sense of death, then that would mean that all people would be biologically dead during sleep. Thus, Jesus (pbuh) would have died every night of his life. Such an assertion is both irrational and illogical.
Another instance in which sleep is regarded as a kind of death, but which does not refer to biological death, is the following hadith: "All praise is for God, Who has made us alive after He made us die [sleep] (Al-hamdu li Allah illadhi ahyana ba'da maa amatana; wa ilayhi al-nushoo)
 Our Prophet (may God bless him and grant him peace) often said this after he woke up."18
No doubt, he used these wise words not to refer to biological death when one is asleep, but rather to a sleeping person's soul being "taken." Ibn Kathir, the famous Islamic scholar and commentator, used this hadith, along with many other proofs in his commentary on Surah Al -Imran, to explain that tawaffaa refers to sleep. Imam Muhammad Zahid al-Kawthari, another Islamic scholar who examined the meaning of tawaffaa, stated that it did not mean death, and drew attention to the use of mawt in Qur'an 39:42: Had Jesus (pbuh) died [which is not the case], then the word mawt revealed in the verse: "God takes the souls [of people] at death" (39:42), would not have been revealed… This is because if, as has been claimed, God had referred to normal death [in the biological sense], then this would have been clearly stated. Since God refers to the fact that the Jews did not kill Jesus (pbuh), but that he was taken and raised to the sky, then one must think of a meaning beyond that of ordinary death.20
Sheikh al-Islam Mustafa Sabri, a contemporary of al-Kawthari, cites this verse as evidence and offers the following interpretation: "If we were to take the word tawaffaa as meaning 'killing,' then souls would also have to die." 21
In his commentary on the Qur'an, the Islamic scholar Mawlana Sayyid Abul A-la Mawdudi makes the following statement about mutawaffeeka, which appears in Qur'an 3:55 (the same word is also used in Qur'an 5:117): The word mutawaffeeka, in the Arabic text comes from the word tawaffaa, meaning "to take the surrender of" and "take the soul," although here it is used in a figurative sense. Here, it means "relieving from duty. 22
Abu Mansur Muhammad al-Maturidi, regarded as one of the first Qur'anic commentators, also stated that the verse does not refer to Jesus (pbuh) dying in the familiar biological sense: The thing being referred to in the verse is not passing on in the sense of death, but in the sense of the body being taken from this world.23
Islamic scholars agree that mutawaffeeka means that Jesus (pbuh) did not die, but that he was raised to God's presence and will return to Earth. For example, the famous commentator and scholar al-Tabari stated that mutawaffeeka is used in the sense of "removing from Earth" and interpreted the verse in the following terms: In my opinion, the soundest thing is to take this word in the sense of "to take into one's possession, "draw [away] from Earth." In that case, the meaning of the verse is: "I shall take you from Earth and into the heavens." The rest of the verse emphasizes the [believers'] victory over unbelievers in the End Times, which confirms the above idea." 24
Further on in his commentary, al-Tabari included other interpretations of mutawaffeeka. Islamic scholars are in general agreement that its correct interpretation is "a kind of sleep." According to Imam Hasan al-Basri, the Egyptian scholar Muhammad Khalil Herras stated that the verse means: "I shall put you to sleep and raise you to My presence as you sleep." In his commentary, al-Suyuti said, based on reliable hadith, that Jesus (pbuh) did not die, and then continued: In that case, Jesus (pbuh) was raised to the skies and will return before the Day of Judgment.25
The great Islamic scholar Imam Ibn Taymiyya stated that Qur'an 3:55 indicates that Jesus (pbuh) did not die, but most likely experienced a kind of "sleep death." He then wrote: This verse is proof that the death of Jesus (pbuh) is not being referred to… The word al-tawaffi [the infinitive form of the word mutawafeeka used] in the verse requires the death of the soul without that of the body, or of both, but with the existence of another piece of evidence explaining the circumstances in this sense. The meaning may be the death of sleep (as in Qur'an 6:60). The words at the end of the verse, to the effect that: "I shall separate you purified from the unbelievers," are also along these lines. Had Jesus' (pbuh) body been separated from his soul, then his body would be in the ground, as with the other prophets.27
In his commentary, Hamdi Yazir of Elmali stated that the verse in question means: In my view, a summary of this interpretation and belief is as follows: The soul of Jesus (pbuh), described as a "word from God" and reinforced with the "Purest Spirit", has not yet been taken. His soul has not come to the hour of death. "The Word" has not yet returned to God. He still has work to do in this world.28
As we have seen, this verse does not mean "death" in the sense as it is generally used in English. The expression in this verse reports that Jesus (pbuh) was placed in a condition similar to sleep and then raised to God's presence. Jesus (pbuh) did not die, but was merely removed from this dimension by His will. (God knows best.)
An Explanation of Qur'an 4:157-58
And [on account of] their saying: "We killed the Messiah [qatalnaa], Jesus son of Mary, messenger of God." They did not kill him [maa qataloohu] and they did not crucify him [maa salaboohu], but it was made to seem so to them [shubbiha]. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him [maa qataloohu]. God raised him to Himself. God is Almighty, All-Wise. (Qur'an, 4:157-58)
Before considering the evidence in these verses in detail, we must explain one particular subject: the words maa salaboohu, which is translated as "they did not crucify him." This word's root is the verb salaboohu: "to hang, execute, crucify." This being the case, the belief that Jesus (pbuh) was crucified, one of Christianity's main tenets, is unfounded.
Those Who Claim Jesus (pbuh) Was Killed Are Speculating
The fact that they have doubts shows that the unbelievers did not achieve their goal. Had they really killed Jesus (pbuh), there would be no room for doubt and they would be certain that they had succeeded. Let us consider this with an example. Someone who opens fire in order to kill someone else will know whether the intended victim has actually been killed or not. Alternatively, there needs to be very exceptional circumstances for there to be any doubt about whether someone condemned to death has actually died. If there is doubt, something out of the ordinary must have occurred. Those who had sought to kill Jesus (pbuh) would have felt no doubt as to whether they had succeeded or not. However, our Lord reveals that they did have such doubts, were only speculating, and had no certain information. This is one of the proofs that Jesus (pbuh) did not die but was raised alive to God's presence.
Foiling this Trap Shows God's Superior Might
Another element that attracts our attention is the expression: "God raised him to Himself. God is Almighty, All-Wise" (Qur'an, 4:158). In all likelihood, this extraordinary situation shows God's superior might. (God knows best.)
In their commentaries on this verse, Islamic scholars point out that these words represent an extraordinary revelation of God's might and wisdom. For example, Fakhr al-Din al-Razi said:
God reveals at the end of the verse that "God is Almighty, All-Wise." The intention behind almightiness here is the perfection and immaculate nature of that might, and that behind wisdom is the perfection and immaculate nature of knowledge. In this way, God has indicated the raising of Jesus (pbuh) and that no matter how impossible this may seem to a person, it is not impossible relative to His might and wisdom. A similar situation can be seen in the verse: "Glory be to Him, Who took His servant on a journey by night from the Sacred Mosque [Masjid al-Haram] to the Further Mosque [Masjid al-Aqsa]…" (Qur'an, 17:1). That is because no matter how much such a journey may be impossible relative to the power of Prophet Muhammad (may God bless him and grant him peace), it is a most easy matter relative to the might of God.30
Mehmed Vehbi interpreted one of the elements of wisdom behind this revelation:
The elevation of Jesus (pbuh) to the heavens is determined in this verse. Although elevation to the heavens is impossible relative to human power, in order to announce that this is not difficult relative to His might and wisdom, God declares in the verse's preceding part that He is All-Wise and Almighty. And in order to reveal the perfection of His knowledge, He reveals that He is sovereign and that His might and wisdom are sufficient to elevate Jesus (pbuh) to the heavens.31
Hasanayn Muhammad Mahluf cited Prophet Muhammad's (may God bless him and grant him peace) ascent to heaven and stated:
In the same way that our Prophet (may God bless him and grant him peace) ascended to the heavens in both body and soul awake, so Jesus (pbuh) was raised alive to the heavens. There is nothing peculiar here. Situations of this kind are miraculous. There is no need for any comparison on this matter. God possesses might over all…32
Hasanayn Muhammad Mahluf: "The belief of Muslims is this: Jesus (pbuh) was neither crucified nor killed, but was raised alive in body and soul to the heavens. He will continue to live in the heavens for as long as God so wills…"34
God Raised Jesus (pbuh) to His Presence
Our Lord has revealed that He raised Jesus (pbuh) to His presence:
... [I will] raise you up to Me and purify you of those who are unbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection. Then, all of you will return to Me, and I will judge between you regarding the things about which you differed. (Qur'an, 3:55)
And [on account of] their saying: "We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, messenger of God." They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. God raised him to Himself. God is Almighty, All-Wise. (Qur'an, 4:157-158)
As these verses reveal, those who sought to kill Jesus (pbuh) failed to achieve their goal, because God protected and rescued him by raising him to His presence. The words raafiu'ka and rafa'ahu that appear in the verses come from the Arabic root rafa'a, which means "to rise." Islamic scholars interpret rafa'a as the opposite of "being lowered." The Islamic scholar Abu Musa al-Ash'ari interpreted Qur'an 3:55 together with Qur'an 4:158, and wrote that: "There is a consensus among the community of the faithful [ijma' ummat] that Jesus (pbuh) was raised alive to the heavens."38 (Ijma' ummat refers to the agreement on this issue of those Islamic scholars who expounded upon Islamic law and lived during the same century).
In interpreting these verses, the great majority of Islamic scholars agree that "Jesus (pbuh) did not die, but was raised to God's presence, and that this ascension took place in both body and soul." Examples of their opinions are given below:
The interpreter and commentator Fakhr al-Din al-Razi had this to say about "God raised him to Himself," which appear in Qur'an 4:158:
With the ascension here, God refers to an ascension to a place where no laws apart from that of God apply. This verse makes it clear that Jesus (pbuh) was raised to the heavens… 39
In his commentary, Hasan Basri Cantay interpreted raafiu'ka as meaning "raising and lifting up to Himself," and wrote that "God raised and lifted up Jesus (pbuh) in both body and soul."
Imam Ibn Taymiyya opined: The verse "He raised him to His presence" … explains that Jesus (pbuh) was raised in both body and soul.41
cont Zahid al-Kawthari stated that the ascension is so clear and certain that there is no room for any objections. Al-Kawthari cited Qur'an 3:55 and Qur'an 4:157-58 as evidence and said that this event is beyond doubt. He uses the word nass, which means certainty or indisputability stemming from a Qur'anic verse or a hadith. He went on to say: That is because the basic meaning of the word (rafa'a in the verses) is transportation from below to above. There is no element here that could be used to interpret the verses metaphorically. Therefore, there is no evidence for seeking to produce a meaning in the sense of ascension in honor and station.44 Mawdudi set out his views on the subject in the following terms:
If God had willed to reveal what is expressed in the verse [Qur'an, 4:158] in the words "God killed him" or "God raised his rank," He would have openly done so. Instead of the former, He could have revealed the words "Certainly they neither killed him nor crucified him, but He saved him and later on caused him to die at his own appointed hour of death." Instead of the latter, He could have revealed the expression "They tried to humiliate him by crucifying him, but God raised him greatly in rank."45 As clearly seen from the verses and the Islamic scholars' comments, Jesus (pbuh) was raised alive, with his body, to God's presence. This is a miracle of God, and a wonder that will inspire great enthusiasm and excitement among all believers. Claims that only his soul was raised to His presence, or that his ascension was only spiritual (in station), do not reflect the facts. The invalidity of such claims has been proven by many Islamic scholars, some examples of which have been cited above. Another important proof of this event is the Arabic word bal, which appears in Qur'an, 4:158, and has the literal translation of "on the contrary." The features of its meaning and use in Arabic linguistics indicate a very important fact: According to the rules of Arabic linguistics, the sentence that comes after it must have a meaning that is completely opposite to the preceding statement. That being the case, it is likely that the verses referring to Jesus (pbuh) "… They did not kill him," (Qur'an, 4:157) "on the contrary [bal] God raised him up to Himself…" (Qur'an, 4:158) refer to the state of being alive, rather than the state of being dead. (God knows best.) Sheikh al-Islam Mustafa Sabri offered the following interpretation:
If the term bal, which appears in Qur'an 4:158 and which I have translated as "on the contrary," comes after a sentence expressing a negativity, then, according to the rules of Arabic linguistics, the sentence following it must mean the exact opposite of the one preceding it. The opposite of death is life. This is a requirement of the rules of linguistics. If we say that "the ascension here is a spiritual one" and "Jesus (pbuh) died in the normal sense," then we are violating that rule. In that case, the ascension following the expression "on the contrary" would not represent the opposite to the verbs of "killing" and "crucifying" in the negative sentence preceding it. That is because it may be possible for a person to be killed and for his or her soul to rise to the skies. Otherwise, this term would be meaningless, and there are no meaningless terms in the Qur'an … According to those who support the thesis that the ascension is only one of the soul, the meaning of the verse is this: "They did not kill him and did not crucify him … on the contrary, God raised his station." There is no particular oratory here, let alone succinctness … No rational person could take the words "The elevator in my building raises me to the fourth floor every day," to mean that I am only raised to the fourth floor in spirit. Therefore, neither was Jesus (pbuh) raised only in spirit.46
Said Ramadan al-Buti interpreted the subject in the same way:
The mutual compatibility between the verse's previous and later sections necessarily reveals a fact. For example, if an Arab says: "I am not hungry; on the contrary, I am lying on my side," this is not a correct sentence. In the same way, there is a discrepancy between the components in the sentence: "Khalid did not die; on the contrary, he is a good man." What would be correct is to say: "Khalid did not die; on the contrary, he is alive." To say: "The chairman was not killed; he is a man with a superior station in God's presence" also leads to a break in meaning in the sentence, for his having a high station in God's sight is no obstacle to his being killed. The term bal expresses a contradiction between the preceding and the following words. In other words, bal cancels out a previous statement.47
Furthermore, if the word rafa'a indicated a spiritual rank, then the Qur'an could have used the same term for other prophets. Thus, the emphasis on Jesus (pbuh) being "raised to God" contains great wisdom, for it was not used in connection with Prophet Muhammad (may God bless him and grant him peace), Moses (pbuh), Solomon (pbuh), David (pbuh), Shu`ayb (pbuh), Noah (pbuh), Abraham (pbuh), and Lot (pbuh), or with any other prophet mentioned in the Qur'an. When mentioning these prophets' deaths, various forms of the word mata (death in the biological sense) are employed, whereas Jesus (pbuh) was "raised up" (rafa'a). This phenomenon will be discussed in detail in later chapters. While the souls of all people, including prophets, are raised to God's presence, the use of rafa'a with regard to Jesus (pbuh) indicates an extraordinary situation. (God knows best.) The Egyptian scholar Muhammad Khalil Herras, who has researched and published his findings on Jesus' (pbuh) return to Earth, says:
If the use of the word rafa'a in Qur'an 4:158 referred solely to the "raising of the soul," this would not cancel out Jesus' (pbuh) killing and crucifixion, and the wisdom revealed in the verse would not apply. For example, if the Jews had killed Jesus (pbuh), his soul would, in any case, have been raised to God. Indeed, we know that the souls of all prophets and believers ascend to God after they die. There is no difference in this regard between Jesus (pbuh) and all other people. Therefore, there is a special feature in this verse: the raising of Jesus (pbuh), while still alive, in both body and soul. At the same time, when we look at the end of this verse, we see that it manifests God's glory and wisdom.48
Contrary to what some people maintain, the ascension is not a spiritual one or one of degree. God reveals that He foiled the trap set for Jesus (pbuh). Thus, given the fact that Jesus (pbuh) did not die, the information revealed in the verse shows that Jesus (pbuh) was raised to God with body and soul, and not merely spiritually. The plotters were confounded by Jesus' (pbuh) ascension to God. (God knows best.) The scholar Zahid al-Kawthari expounds on this by giving the following example: One verse regarding Prophet Muhammad (may God bless him and grant him peace) states: "… God will protect you from people…" (Qur'an, 5:67). There can be no doubt that the verse means something other than: "He raises your station before people." Our Prophet (may God bless him and grant him peace) was attacked physically, and so God placed him under His physical protection. This also applies to Jesus (pbuh), who was physically attacked as well. Therefore, it is impossible for the ascension referred to in the verse to have been merely a spiritual one.49
All of this evidence shows that Jesus (pbuh) is still alive and will return to Earth when God wills. (God knows best.) Ibn Taymiyya also drew attention to this subject:
Had God willed to refer to death, Jesus (pbuh) would have died like all other believers. God takes the souls of all believers and raises them to the skies. It would thus appear that there was nothing out of the ordinary in this. In other words, there would be no significance in God's referring to Jesus (pbuh) in this way.50
Sheikh al-Islam Mustafa Sabri opined:
Had the verse referred solely to killing, then there would have been no need to use the word raafiu'ka, since Jesus' (pbuh) soul would be raised like all other souls.51 Peace!Sorry I am editing it...its too long to read...please refer to the full article if you are unsure about any points...though I still think its too long...
   

Peter

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2009, 08:36:44 AM »
Yet another forum Muslim J:

The Muslims View Is The Exact Same As The Christian . One Account Of The Muslim View Concerning The Return Of Yashu'a Can Be Found In The Book Called '' Nuzul - E -Esa '' , Which Means '' Dissension Of Jesus '' By Maulana Syed M.B. aLAM . The Cover Of That Book Displays A Picture Of The Dome Of The Rock With Ladders Alongside It Suggesting That Their Yashu'a Will Return And Land On Top Of The Dome Of The Rock  And Then He Will Be Helped To The Ground By Way Of A Ladder .
 
First Of All . The Dome Of The Rock Is Not In Damascus , It's In Jerusalem . Second , It's Stupid To Thing That Yashu'a Would Need A Ladder To Help Him Down Part Of The Way ; When By Then He Would Have Already Descended A Great Distance From The Heavens . And Furthermore If The Messiah Yashu's Is Supposed To Have Powers Why Would He Need Some Ladder Made By Humans .
 
Muslims All Around The Would Are Waiting For The Messiah Yashu'a Return According To Their Predictions Which Is Based On A 1,400 Years Old Hadith That Says '' The Coming Of The Messiah Yashu'a Is Closer Than The Distance Between Your Two Fingers '' My Fingers Are Pretty Close And The Year 2,000 Has Come And Gone . It Was Prophesied  In Another Hadith  By Way If Ahmad ( Muhammad ) Son Of Amina And Abduallat That The Son Of Mary Would Descend To Break The Cross .
 
Narrated Abu Huraira And I Quote ; '' Allah's Apostle Said ; '' By Him In Whose Hands My Soul Is . Son Of Mary Yashu'a ( Jesus ) Will Shortly Descend Amongst You People ( Muslims ) And Will Judge Mankind Justly By The Law Of The Qur'aam ( As A Just Ruler ) And Will Break The Cross And Kill The Pig And Abolish The Jazzy ( A Tax Taken From The Non - Muslims , Who Are In The Protection , Of The Muslims Government ) Then There Will Be Abundance Of Money And No - Body Will Accept Charitable Gifts .
 
'' The Messiah Yashu'a ( Jesus ) In Ashuric Syriac ( Arabic ) Al Massih Isa < Arabic , As The Muslims Call Him , Or Isa Ibn Mariyam < Arabic , Meaning '' Jesus Son Of Mary '' Is Spoke Of More In The Qur'aan Than Any Other Prophet  Including Muhammad , So Where Do The Muslims Get Off Stating That They Do Not Read The Bible When Their Holy Scriptures ( The Qur'aan ) Is Mostly Based On Yashu'a .
 
Are The Christians Awaiting A Messiah Also ? Definitely Yes !!! And Out Of All Of The Sects , They Are The Most That Are Deeply Under The Spell .  The Christians Believe That Yashu'a Will Return In The Form Of The Rapture ( He Will Return In A Cloud From Heaven ) The Entire Christian World Has Been Waiting For The Rapture And The Return Of Their Christ . Yet Ask Them To Show You Where It Says That In The Bible , They Couldn't Because Its Not There . They Teach That Yashu'a ( Jesus ) Who Died On The Cross Almost 2,000 Years Ago Is Going To Have The Same Physical Body With The Same Features As He Did When He Died Over 2,000 Years Ago .
 
With So Many Faces Circulating Of What Yashu'a ( Jesus ) Look Like No One Will Know Who He Is Anyway .
 
This Is Not Resurrection , This Is Reincarnation  Which Christians Claim Is Strictly A Hindu Belief .
According To The '' American Heritage Dictionary '' Resurrection Merely Means '' The Act Of Rising From The Dead Or Retyrning To Life '' , While Reincarnation Means '' A Rebirth In Another Form ; A New Embodiment '' . The Word For Resurrection  In The Greek Language Is Anastasis < Greek Language Is Anastasis < Greek , And Means '' Rising , Standing '' , The Word In Ashuric Syriac ( Arabic ) Is Qiyaam < Arabic , And Means '' To '' Rise , To Get Up . To Stand '' .
 
As I Mentioned Previously , There Are Hundreds Of Images Of Yashu'a ( Jesus ) Who Christians Say Will Return In The Last Days As The '' Anointed Messiah Or Savior '' . So Which Image Of Yashu'a ( Jesus ) Will Be The Resurrected One And How Much Longer Will It Be Before He Returns , Because Christians Have Beed Teaching This Same Doctrine Yashu'a ( Jesus ) Is Going To Return Since The So-Called Crucifxion Which They Say Happened 2,000 Years Ago ?

Peter

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 08:37:55 AM »
Quote from: J
The Muslims View Is The Exact Same As The Christian . One Account Of The Muslim View Concerning The Return Of Yashu'a Can Be Found In The Book Called '' Nuzul - E -Esa '' , Which Means '' Dissension Of Jesus '' By Maulana Syed M.B. aLAM . The Cover Of That Book Displays A Picture Of The Dome Of The Rock With Ladders Alongside It Suggesting That Their Yashu'a Will Return And Land On Top Of The Dome Of The Rock  And Then He Will Be Helped To The Ground By Way Of A Ladder .
 
First Of All . The Dome Of The Rock Is Not In Damascus , It's In Jerusalem . Second , It's Stupid To Thing That Yashu'a Would Need A Ladder To Help Him Down Part Of The Way ; When By Then He Would Have Already Descended A Great Distance From The Heavens . And Furthermore If The Messiah Yashu's Is Supposed To Have Powers Why Would He Need Some Ladder Made By Humans .

Indeed! Folks come up with all kinds of stuff the further they stray from the Gospel as well!

Quote from: J
Muslims All Around The Would Are Waiting For The Messiah Yashu'a Return According To Their Predictions Which Is Based On A 1,400 Years Old Hadith That Says '' The Coming Of The Messiah Yashu'a Is Closer Than The Distance Between Your Two Fingers '' My Fingers Are Pretty Close And The Year 2,000 Has Come And Gone . It Was Prophesied  In Another Hadith  By Way If Ahmad ( Muhammad ) Son Of Amina And Abduallat That The Son Of Mary Would Descend To Break The Cross .

Christians are awaiting the return of Jesus Christ too. But for some I'm afraid it distracts them from realizing that they could stand in judgment this very day, or even in the next moment, if one were to die of an aneurysm or something like that.

Quote from: J
Narrated Abu Huraira And I Quote ; '' Allah's Apostle Said ; '' By Him In Whose Hands My Soul Is . Son Of Mary Yashu'a ( Jesus ) Will Shortly Descend Amongst You People ( Muslims ) And Will Judge Mankind Justly By The Law Of The Qur'aam ( As A Just Ruler ) And Will Break The Cross......

For 2,000 years Christians, of course, have believed that Jesus had victory over the cross almost 2000 years ago.

It wouldn't be inappropriate for us to metaphorically say that He "broke the cross" then.

Quote from: J
.... And Kill The Pig And Abolish The Jazzy ( A Tax Taken From The Non - Muslims , Who Are In The Protection , Of The Muslims Government ) Then There Will Be Abundance Of Money And No - Body Will Accept Charitable Gifts .
'

What would the purpose of money be?

Quote from: J
' The Messiah Yashu'a ( Jesus ) In Ashuric Syriac ( Arabic ) Al Massih Isa < Arabic , As The Muslims Call Him , Or Isa Ibn Mariyam < Arabic , Meaning '' Jesus Son Of Mary '' Is Spoke Of More In The Qur'aan Than Any Other Prophet  Including Muhammad , So Where Do The Muslims Get Off Stating That They Do Not Read The Bible When Their Holy Scriptures ( The Qur'aan ) Is Mostly Based On Yashu'a .
 

But from a Christian perspective the Quran teaches the direct opposite of the very core - the most central belief - of what Christians have held for almost 2,000 years, through the Gospel.
That is, that Jesus Christ died on the cross as the final one sacrifice, though which mankind may atone for sin.

Quote from: J

Are The Christians Awaiting A Messiah Also ? Definitely Yes !!! And Out Of All Of The Sects , They Are The Most That Are Deeply Under The Spell .  The Christians Believe That Yashu'a Will Return In The Form Of The Rapture ( He Will Return In A Cloud From Heaven ) The Entire Christian World Has Been Waiting For The Rapture And The Return Of Their Christ . Yet Ask Them To Show You Where It Says That In The Bible , They Couldn't Because Its Not There .

Thank you for that!!! I was taught, and held that eschatology (end-time doctrine, for perhaps a dozen years myself!).

But before I go on let me say that Christians are unanimous in our understanding of our core beliefs that are not open to interpretation, such as that Jesus died on the cross. That's what the New Testament is all about. Really the whole subject of the Gospel. Anybody that does not believe that is simply not a Christian.

However when it comes to interpretation of the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy these passages  are broadly open to interpretation.

The doctrine that you mention, the "pre-trib" "rapture" and "7 year tribulation" (for it to be "pre") is held by no shortage of those in the church. But this doctrine was penned by a guy named John Nelson Darby in the 19th century.
I have not come across anybody that can adequately defend that doctrine in the light of scripture as you, yourself, point out.

Quote from: J
They Teach That Yashu'a ( Jesus ) Who Died On The Cross Almost 2,000 Years Ago Is Going To Have The Same Physical Body With The Same Features As He Did When He Died Over 2,000 Years Ago .


Jesus will return in the "glorified" body that He acquired after He was crucified died and was resurrected - that the Apostles could physically touch - but different that a man's regular physical body.

But then it is my understanding from Muslims that at least some believe that Jesus was raised by Allah in bodily form and will return in that same bodily forum.

Quote from: J
 
 
With So Many Faces Circulating Of What Yashu'a ( Jesus ) Look Like No One Will Know Who He Is Anyway .
 
This Is Not Resurrection , .....

 
Jhn 11:25    Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
  

Quote from: J
.....This Is Reincarnation  Which Christians Claim Is Strictly A Hindu Belief .
According To The '' American Heritage Dictionary '' Resurrection Merely Means '' The Act Of Rising From The Dead Or Retyrning To Life '' , While Reincarnation Means '' A Rebirth In Another Form ; A New Embodiment '' . The Word For Resurrection  In The Greek Language Is Anastasis < Greek Language Is Anastasis < Greek , And Means '' Rising , Standing '' , The Word In Ashuric Syriac ( Arabic ) Is Qiyaam < Arabic , And Means '' To '' Rise , To Get Up . To Stand '' .
 
As I Mentioned Previously , There Are Hundreds Of Images Of Yashu'a ( Jesus )

  

Sorry but there are no images of Jesus. In fact they are expressly prohibited:

 
Exd 20:4    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Here's a simple example that illustrates the error of the Roman Chruch and their icons and idols of Jesus.   Think about all those idols and pictures of Jesus you have seen and consider:

 
1Cr 11:14    Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
  

Quote from: J


Who Christians Say Will Return In The Last Days As The '' Anointed Messiah Or Savior '' . So Which Image Of Yashu'a ( Jesus ) Will Be The Resurrected One And How Much Longer Will It Be Before He Returns , Because Christians Have Beed Teaching This Same Doctrine Yashu'a ( Jesus ) Is Going To Return Since The So-Called Crucifxion Which They Say Happened 2,000 Years Ago ?

But you can't understand the Gospel until you are fully willing to seek out the truth therein. You are confusing the Gospel with end-time doctrine which is a non-essential of a life in Christ Jesus. You began this post by pointing out a strange end-time doctrine held by some Muslims, so you should be able to understand that. Do you think Allah will condemn them for that?

Jesus is revealed through all of the witnesses of the Gospel and Old Testament prophecy.
You must necessarily reject all of the witnesses of Jesus to follow Mohammed, through what ever excuses you offer yourself to justify it. How did Mohammed weigh in 7 CENTURIES AFTER Christians began committing this gross error regarding the crucifixion that you accuse?

Sura 5:47 Let the PEOPLE OF THE GOSPEL JUDGE BY WHAT ALLAH HATH REVEALED THEREIN. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.  

Peter

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2009, 08:40:50 AM »
Quote from: J
PeteWaldo < You First Mistake Is Your Assuming I'm Muslim 2nd Telling Me What I Believe , LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL .
 
There is no type of Nail That They Could Have used to Support A Man Like Jesus' Size ,......

What was Jesus' size and where did you learn about that?

Quote from: J
........ Without Ripping Through His , Plams Or Shattering His Bones.
 
     

That's interesting. Just the other evening a friend of mine said they saw 2 kids hanging in their backyard with hooks in their back. After reading your post I yahooed - hanging from hooks:   
 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3308/3442910325_741ea508a7.jpg     
 
That's hanging from the dermis alone. Perhaps you've never seen a deer or other animal hanging from just 2 single tendons.

Quote from: J
     
Again Jesus was Not Crucified . It's A Myth . A Play Created By Joseph Flavius.

So then the hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of folks were simply in attendance at a play that was created by Joseph Flavius?
I would appreciate you sharing your source for this.

Peter

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Re: Who Died on the Cross?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2009, 08:47:39 AM »
Now let's look at the Quran again.

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Even the verse itself recognizes that Jews believe Jesus was crucified, and as far as I am aware, not a single sect of Judaism believes other than Jesus died on the cross.
For the last 2,000 years there has never been a single Christian that did not believe that Jesus died on the cross. If a person denied that, they simply wouldn't be a Christian, since Jesus' sacrifice of Himself on the cross to save us from sin is the whole subject of the Gospel and the new covenant.

So we find that Jews and Christians are in complete resolve regarding who died on the cross, yet we learn from the Muslims themselves that they are exactly they way that Mohammed described Jews and Christians "...those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow...", as proven through the wildly diverse views represented in just the few posts above.

In other words, religions universally instruct their adherents what to believe, which makes Mohammed's religion unique in that at its very foundation Mohammed's followers are taught what not to believe, while a vacuum is left regarding what to what to believe. Thus we can see Mohammed's religion again emerge as an anti-religion, religion. The perfect and direct opposite of the Gospel as revealed through all of the prophets and apostles of the New Testament.

Peter

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Re: Who Died on the Cross?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2009, 03:13:14 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6vZnfoyok4
Maybe some Muslims can help this poor guy out.


PeteWaldo (3 days ago)

Islam means submission to God.
Jews and Christians are submitted to God. Mohammed's followers have only been deceived into believing they are submitted to God, by satan, through the false prophet Mohammed.
That's why followers of Mohammed are Mohammedans.

ir (2 days ago)

The Disciple(JUDAS) Who betrayed him was hanged,( God changed him to the shape of Jesus ),And before they take him to Court , He keep saying I am not Jesus Bit,The soldiers Beat him so much until he Confess to be Jesus ,same as the American Soldiers do in Iraq war .

PeteWaldo (2 days ago)

I see.
Did you learn this from the Quran?

ir (2 days ago)

Vow Vow Waldo , the Weirdo
The Quran says .THE CHRISTIANS They say they Killed Jesus,they Did not ,and they are Mistaken about the fact ,Allah Remove him from? between them .I will find the Verse and Post it.
I Put Judas name ,Our Historians have his name as ASQAR LUTTI ( indicating Some one from themseleves).I Gess it would be Hebrew name for Juda .since there is no......J.... In Hebrew anyway.

PeteWaldo (2 days ago)

You mean Mohammed was silent on the subject?

What do you mean by "historians"?
Of what century were they?
Can you give me some references?

ir (1 day ago)

Quran IS NOT Words of Muhammad (SAWA) .It is the WORDS OF ALLAH (SOPHANAHO VA TAALA) .If Allah wants to keep a name Secreat ,Who are you to Question him ? Besides People at the Time used to be called by their Fathers or Mothers name ,they had no LAST NAME .ISSA IBNE MRYAM (AS) .SAUL IBNE SHITAAN (LANATOLLAH ALAIHEH).
PeteWaldo Ibne Prostitude (LA).

PeteWaldo (1 day ago)

Not a single person ever heard Mohammed's "Allah" speak to him.

But why did you change the subject?
What historians told you the tale about Judas?
What century were they from?

ir (2 days ago)

VOW VOW WALDO ;
Go read Apocalypse of PETER.
Jesus himself was on the TREE watching soldiers hanging the WRONG MAN .and he was Laughing .If the one on the Cross was Jesus ,then Why was he Laughing For Pain ?Besides Peter was the ONLY one from the Apostles who was there.ALL Others Had escaped.

PeteWaldo (5 hours ago)

So if this comes from the Quran or hadith, why don't you quote the source?

How is it your "historians" didn't know that Judas hanged himself before the crucifixion ever took place? Were they as illiterate as Mohammed?

ir (1 day ago)

Waldo the Wirdo;
Do you all have a NEW GOD ,after Jesus ?
Who is this?
and after that also King of? Salem, which is, King of peace;
3-Without father, without mother, without descent

PeteWaldo (5 hours ago)

It is the Mohammedans that have a new god which is Mohammed and his "Allah".

Jesus is the prophesied "prince of peace" - the promised Son of God - God manifest - just as detailed in the Old Testament hundreds of years before He was made manifest:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

ir (1 hour ago)

Wierdo;
Muhammad Does not have a new God .Inhis language God is ALLAH .This is How the write Allah in Arabic ; ????
And here is a Verse from an arabic BIBLE;"???? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???????? ?????" (????? 1 :12).

Do you see Allah? this is John 12;1 ????

ir (1 hour ago)

The Isaiah 9;6;
IS NOT ABOUT JESUS; It is about The Son of A MAN? ,his name is MAHDI (ASVS).
The 12 th Imam of Islam .His mothers name in Nargess Khatoon ,she is the great Great,grand daughter of David. And he will Rule the world till the end.And yes he will come with Isa(AS).And Jesus ,Does not mean Wounderful .Mahdi Means the owner of time.(god of time,Not the creator )

ir (49 minutes ago)

And you think Muslims are Confused ,Here is the proof that people who wrote your bible Are Confused;Mathew 27;3-5
3-Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4-Saying, I have .
5-And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. RIGHT !

PeteWaldo (26 minutes ago)

That's what happened. Judas might have thought Jesus would perform a miracle and avoid crucifixion. But when Judas found out Jesus was indeed going to be crucified, he tried to give the money back to undo it. But those he gave the money to wouldn't undo it. So Judas was so distressed, he killed himself.

"And you think Muslims are Confused...."
My friend, it has nothing to do with what I think. You have demonstrated that you are confused.

"Unconscious may be But dead NOWAY."

PeteWaldo (5 hours ago)

Why is it that other Muslims say it was a soldier that went in to get Jesus, but Jesus had been raised up to Allah, and when the soldier came out "Allah" had put Jesus' face on him, and so they crucified the soldier by mistake?

ir (1 hour ago)

Wirdo;
the quran says ,we removed Isa (AS) ,and the order became Confusing to them,but they did not Kill Isa(AS).
A Group of Soldiers went into his hiding place and they brought out a Person that looked Exactly like him ,even Talked like him.And he keep telling them that they are mistaken ,but they would not Believe him .Now Who was the Substitute?Some say he was one of the Soldiers,Some say he Might have been Judas.All we know is He was not ISA(AS).Even Peter says he was on the tree.

PeteWaldo (1 hour ago)

"Who was the Substitute?Some say he was one of the Soldiers,Some say he Might have been Judas...."

I see. So those like you that deny that Jesus was crucified are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow,

Whereas there is not a single sect of Judaism that denies that Jesus died on the cross (as the Quran indicates), and for the last 2000 years there has never been a single Christian that doubted that Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin.

ir (1 hour ago)

And Jesus NEVER was put on the CROSS.And NO ONE WILL DIE on the cross with nail in his hands ,and rope around his feet .Unconscious may be But dead NOWAY.
Paul Put Jesus on the Cross as he learned from the MITHRA the SUN GOD was put on the cross .You Guys been fooled long enough.time to stop .

PeteWaldo (44 minutes ago)

But you see, if you didn't reject God to follow a 7th century murdering, sex crazed, thieving, pimp you could see that Jesus crucifixion was prophesied many hundreds of years in advance in the Old Testament:

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

ir (39 minutes ago)

RIGHT;
And Jesus Stayed Around and said ALL THESE Things,about How they Killed him ?
Oh yes While you have it Why don't you tell Us about Moses writing HIS OWN Death in the DEUTRONOMY. that is interesting.

ir (32 minutes ago)

No my friend ,YOU GOT US WRONG ,We do not reject GOD mWe reject the PAGAN GOD ,CHRISTOS(CHRIST) .Our God is ALLAH (ELOHIM .ELLAH ) ,the one and only ONE ,not THREE AND ONLY.Not the One who HUMBLES himself to save Some Low down JEWS .But the one who SAYS BE and it will BE.SOPHAANALLAH

ir (56 minutes ago)

And yes CONSTANTINE Forced people to believe what was to be put in the bible ,the Writings of SAUL,that is why in 2000 .they sure made it FIT in your brains.
Just like Bush made you believe repeating the word Terrorist.for 8 years.

ir (45 minutes ago)

What Happened to Judah?
Act 1;18-19
18-Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
WELL COME TO WHICH ONE BIBLE!!

ir (43 minutes ago)

What was writen on the CROSS?
Mathew 27;37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Mark 15;26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Luke 23;38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

PeteWaldo (10 minutes ago)

I would like to thank you for providing such an instructive example of Mohammedan confusion. Let me add a little more:

Sura 80.13 (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour, 14 Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy, 15 (Written) by the hands of scribes- 16 Honourable and Pious and Just.

Yet Mohammed's 23 year record is the EXACT OPPOSITE of that revealed in the 1600 year record of God to mankind.

extension of conversation
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=779.0

Peter

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Re: Who Died on the Cross?
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2009, 08:43:21 AM »
Video: http://www.youtube.com/user/PeteWaldo#p/a/u/0/S7V8FxTAguo

"Was Jesus Crucified?"

"Who Was Crucified?"

Mohammed's followers are filled with complete resolve regarding who was not crucified:

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Even the internal evidence in the verse suggests a contradiction. Jews are the ones that are supposedly quoted as boasting "We killed Christ Jesus...". Since Muslims understand that the term "Christ" means "Messiah", then the question begs, why would the Jews be quoted as recognizing Jesus as their Messiah, but then kill Him? But that's a separate discussion.

What we discover from that verse is that, unlike any other religion, Mohammed taught his followers specifically what to disbelieve, as part of the very core of his 7th century religion, while leaving an absolute vacuum as to just what Muslims are to believe. When we ask them who was crucified, it seems we are offered as many different answers, as Muslims that we ask. Thus Islam emerges as the only, anti-another-religion, religion, by design. In other words Islam is to Christianity as a negative is to a photograph.

There is perhaps no sect of Judaism that does not believe that Jesus was crucified. Of course there has not been a single Christian over the last nearly two thousand years that has disbelieved that Jesus sacrificed Himself on the cross, to save us from dying in sin, because that is what the new covenant (or testament) is about. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If someone didn't believe Jesus was crucified it would be impossible for them to be a Christian. So Christians and Jews are in complete resolve, and without doubt, regarding who was crucified. Yet when we ask Muslims we find, for example:

"I believe that a true disciple of Jesus took up the cross and died for him knowing that Jesus would raise him again from the dead."

"If I recall correctly, Narrations state that There was a guy who used to oppress jesus PBUH So Allah turned the guy into His Likeness (When Exactly I don't remember Maybe during the time of carrying the cross maybe Before his Capture...) and the Guy was Executed instead of Jesus PBUH so it was made to appear that Jesus PBUH was, but he wasn't."

"The Disciple (JUDAS) Who betrayed him was hanged, (God changed him to the shape of Jesus), And before they take him to Court, He keep saying I am not Jesus, [but] The soldiers Beat him so much until he Confess to be Jesus, same as the American Soldiers do in Iraq war."

So Judas was hanged, apparently before he went to court looking like Jesus, or something like that. If you Yahoo - judas was crucified - you will find no shortage of Muslims that believe it indeed was Judas that was crucified. However the New Testament informs us that Judas hanged himself, some time before the crucifixion, as the confused description above seems to acknowledge.

By many accounts Allah put Jesus face on someone else. For example one report says that they came to Jesus' house to get Him, but he had already been lifted to Allah, and when the guy that went in to look for Him came back out, Allah had changed his face to look like Jesus, so they crucified him. After taking this look-alike down from the cross they decided that his face matched Jesus' face but that his body wasn't a match.

The obvious difficulty with all of these views is that they are pure speculation because Mohammed left his followers empty handed and resolved only in disbelief. In other words, while Jews and Christians are in complete resolve as to who was crucified, Muslims emerge exactly as Mohammed mischaracterized Jews and Christians as "... those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow ..."


When asked where Jesus is now, we find a little more agreement, but still many versions.

"Isa :alayhis: is not in a spiritual state, but in a physical state. He was physically lifted up. He will return, live his life out, and die a natural death."

"The Qur'an reveals, among many other glad tidings, that Jesus (pbuh), one of God's messengers, is not dead and was not put to death.
Qur'an 3:55 and Qur'an 4:157-58 head the list of those verses that relate how Jesus (pbuh) was not killed but was raised alive to God's presence. Jesus (pbuh), who now lives in God's presence, will return to Earth during the End Times."

Isn't that interesting? Muslims believe that Jesus was taken up bodily to their Allah just before the crucifixion, will spend at least a couple of thousand years with Allah, and then come back to earth for the end times, only to die a physical natural death!

Indeed it would seem Mohammed's religion requires that Jesus to come back and die. Through one of his many instructors Mohammed lifted a concept from an Egyptian apocryphal fable titled "The First Gospel of The Infancy of Jesus Christ". The fable claims that Jesus spoke as an infant, while still in the cradle, and said:

"Mary, I am Jesus the Son of God, that word which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the angel Gabriel to thee..."

With Mohammed's spin the infant Jesus was supposed to have said:

Surah 19:30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; 31 "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; 32 "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;  33 "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

So we can see Muslims are stuck with it. Jesus has to die someday, even though their most widely held view is that He was raised physically to Allah, and hasn't died yet.

Sura 4.57 ...but they killed him not, nor crucified him... 158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

There can be no doubt as to who inspired a religion that, at it's core, resolves it's adherents as to what to disbelieve. A religion that requires it's followers to reject the 1600 year record of God to mankind, as revealed through all of the prophets and witnesses of that record, that God's people have followed through two covenants, over 3500 years. Rejecting God's Word to follow the 23 year, 7th century record, of a single, murderous, sex slave capturing, stepson's wife taking, child doing, thief, as revealed through Islam's own books. A "prophet" - without fulfilled prophecy, that never performed a single miracle, whom not a single witness ever heard "Allah" or Gabriel's voice speak to. Indeed a "religion", whose single most important fundamental, is antichrist:

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

To our Muslim could-become brethren:

1John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Mike S

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Re: What do Muslims Believe Happened to Jesus?
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2009, 03:29:20 PM »
Quote from: J
PeteWaldo < You First Mistake Is Your Assuming I'm Muslim 2nd Telling Me What I Believe , LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL .
 
There is no type of Nail That They Could Have used to Support A Man Like Jesus' Size ,......

What was Jesus' size and where did you learn about that?

Quote from: J
........ Without Ripping Through His , Plams Or Shattering His Bones.
 
     

That's interesting. Just the other evening a friend of mine said they saw 2 kids hanging in their backyard with hooks in their back. After reading your post I yahooed - hanging from hooks:   
 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3308/3442910325_741ea508a7.jpg     
 
That's hanging from the dermis alone. Perhaps you've never seen a deer or other animal hanging from just 2 single tendons.

Quote from: J
     
Again Jesus was Not Crucified . It's A Myth . A Play Created By Joseph Flavius.

So then the hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of folks were simply in attendance at a play that was created by Joseph Flavius?
I would appreciate you sharing your source for this.

In response to J's statements quoted here, the Jews considered the wrist to be part of the hand, and the ankle to be part of the foot. There is archeological evidence of other crucifixions including human bones, proving that when nails were used, they were driven through the wrists and ankles. When the nails are placed in these positions, the body will not tear away from the cross. The Romans had crucifixion down to a science. Even the Shroud of Turin, authenticity aside, shows wounds in the wrists and ankles. 

resistingrexmundi

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The anti-intellectualism of Islam and the Roman Church
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2009, 07:46:14 AM »
If you do a search of the Bible the word wrist doesn't show up. That's because as Mike pointed out it was considered part of the hand. Which only makes sense because a hand can't function without a wrist, but an arm can function without a wrist. The guy that was making this erroneous claim is being willfully ignorant. Since a simple google search yields the very information Mike shared. Muslims are in intellectual bondage. They are expected to take what is fed to them NO QUESTIONS ASKED. It is a dire situation.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 09:41:12 AM by Peter »
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: Who Died on the Cross?
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2010, 12:09:52 PM »
http://www.answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv7.html

The Crucifixion of Christ

The Qur'an explicitly denies that Jesus was crucified. It claims that the Jews became so confused that they crucified somebody else instead who had the likeness of Christ. It is recorded in the Qur'an 4:15,

    "They slew him not nor crucified but it appeared so unto them."

In his commentary on this verse al-Baydawi said (p. 135),

    "A group of Jews cursed Christ and his mother. He invoked evil on them and, may He be exalted, turned them into monkeys and swine. The Jews gathered together to kill him, but God, may He be exalted, informed him (Jesus) that He was going to lift him up to heaven. Thus, (Jesus) said to his companions, `Who would like to have my likeness cast on him and be killed and crucified, then enter the paradise?' One of them volunteered (to do so) and God cast on him Christ's likeness. He was then arrested, crucified and killed. It is also said that (the crucified one) was a traitor who went with the mob to guide them to Christ (he meant Judas), thus God cast on him the likeness of Jesus and he was arrested, crucified and killed."

Al- Baydawi is not the only one who records these mystical stories, but all Muslim scholars who attempt to interpret the above verse, plainly state that Jesus was not crucified. The Qur'an has ignored not only the records of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and the rest of the New Testament, but also all the other chroniclers. It ignores the history of the Roman Empire which documented that a Jewish man by the name of Jesus was crucified during the time of Pilate the Pontius, the Roman Governor who gave way to the demands of the chief priests of the Jews.

It is well known that Christ's trial took place in front of the chief priests and the Roman Governor. It is also common knowledge that the arrested man did not remonstrate and say, "I am not Christ, I am Judas who wanted to betray Him and give Him away to you." All Jesus' words on the cross denote that He was Christ, especially His statement, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do" (Luke 23:34).

Jesus Himself told His disciples that He must be delivered to the chief priests and be crucified, then He would rise from the dead on the third day. Christ Himself foretold that and the crucifixion was fulfilled according to the many prophecies recorded in the Old Testament which predicted His crucifixion centuries before. Christ came to accomplish God's plan for man's salvation.

Therefore, it is not reasonable that six hundred years after Christ's crucifixion, a man should appear and declare to the world (ignoring all the historical evidence) that the one who was crucified was not Christ. This is similar to a man who comes hundreds of years from now to tell us that the one who was assassinated in the twentieth century was not Martin Luther King (or John F. Kennedy or Zia al-Haqq) but rather someone else who looked like him. Of course, nobody would believe him, even if he claimed that the angel Gabriel (or the thunder angel) revealed it to him.

Peter

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Re: Who Died on the Cross?
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2010, 06:03:36 AM »
In his commentary on this verse al-Baydawi said (p. 135),

    "A group of Jews cursed Christ and his mother. He invoked evil on them and, may He be exalted, turned them into monkeys and swine. The Jews gathered together to kill him, but God, may He be exalted, informed him (Jesus) that He was going to lift him up to heaven. Thus, (Jesus) said to his companions, `Who would like to have my likeness cast on him and be killed and crucified, then enter the paradise?' One of them volunteered (to do so) and God cast on him Christ's likeness. He was then arrested, crucified and killed. It is also said that (the crucified one) was a traitor who went with the mob to guide them to Christ (he meant Judas), thus God cast on him the likeness of Jesus and he was arrested, crucified and killed."

http://www.answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv7.html

Peter

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Re: Who Died on the Cross?
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2011, 06:37:06 AM »
Excerpt

http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=1209.0

"Here, I present Simon the magician's idea about Jesus, which Hyppolytus reported in  "The Refutation of all heresies:"

Jesus Christ being transformed, and being assimilated to the rulers and powers and angels, came for the restoration (of things). And so (it was that Jesus) appeared as man, when in reality he was not a man. And (so it was) that likewise he suffered, though not actually undergoing suffering, but appearing to the Jews to do so.[xviii][18]

The idea that the people crucified someone whom God made to resemble Jesus was embraced by some heresy-believing groups which were known to have immoral values, such as free sex and connections with occultism. Waraqa belonged to one of these cults.

Waraqa was one of the founders of the group called Ahnaf. In the first narration of the life of Mohammed, written by Ibn Hisham in the 8th century A.D., we read:

The Honafa', or Ahnaf, was a small group  started when four Sabians at Mecca agreed. Those four were Zayd bin Amru bin Nafil, Waraqa bin Naufal, Ubaydullah bin Jahsh, and Uthman Bin al-Huwayrith.[xix][19][1]"

Peter

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Re: Who Died on the Cross?
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2011, 11:36:35 AM »
4.  "He appeared, then, on earth as a man, to the nations of these powers, and wrought miracles. Wherefore he did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them."
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.ii.xxv.html

Sound familiar?

Simon Magnus, or Simon "the Sorcerer" or Simon "the Magician" was dubbed as the "father of heresies" by the early church fathers. Much more on Muhammad's Gnosticism and docetism via his wife Khadijah's cousin Waraqa bin Nufal the Ebionite occult priest here...
http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=2716.0

resistingrexmundi

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Re: Who Died on the Cross?
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2011, 08:07:54 AM »
Actually Simon of Cyrene did carry the cross of Jesus.

Mat 27:32    And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

But only so far as Golgotha. Jesus had become unable to carry it himself. Simon the sorcerer was encountered later by Phillip who preached to him and later by Peter who had to reprimand him in the book of Acts.

Act 8:9    ¶    But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

I am not totally sure if this is the same man as Simon Magus though.
Doth that man love his Lord who would be willing to see Jesus wearing a crown of thorns, while for himself he craves a chaplet of laurel? Shall Jesus ascend to his throne by the cross, and do we expect to be carried there on the shoulders of applauding crowds? Charles H. Spurgeon

Peter

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Re: Who Died on the Cross?
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2011, 10:46:52 AM »
Actually Simon of Cyrene did carry the cross of Jesus.

Mat 27:32    And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

But only so far as Golgotha. Jesus had become unable to carry it himself. Simon the sorcerer was encountered later by Phillip who preached to him and later by Peter who had to reprimand him in the book of Acts.

Act 8:9    ¶    But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

I am not totally sure if this is the same man as Simon Magus though.

My earlier response addressed the Simon in your second quote, wherein I gave an emphatic yes, that it was one and the same. However, on review, I was afraid my response might have been understood to have been a yes for the earlier passage as well, which it was not.

Simon the sorcerer was from Samaria and the Simon that helped with the cross, as your quote indicates, was from Cyrene.