Author Topic: Historical Support for Pre-trib Rapture Doctrine  (Read 5866 times)

Peter

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Historical Support for Pre-trib Rapture Doctrine
« on: April 04, 2008, 06:39:11 PM »
The purpose of this thread is to collect support for the "pre-trib" "rapture" doctrine having been in the church before John Nelson Darby penned it, along with his 7-year tribulation futurist doctrine, in the mid-19th century.

"Dr. Harry Ironside of Moody Bible Institute, himself an ardent supporter of the Ribera-Lacunza-Macdonald-Darby-Scofield eschatological scheme, admitted in his Mysteries of God, p.50: ". . . until brought to the fore through the writings of . . . Mr. J. N. Darby, the doctrine taught by Dr. Scofield [i.e., the Seven-Year Tribulation theory] is scarcely to be found in a single book throughout a period of 1600 years. If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre- and post-Nicene, the theological treatises of the scholastic divines . . . the literature of the reformation . . . the Puritans. He will find the 'mystery' conspicuous by its absence."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm#pseudo_ephraem

PSEUDO EPHRAEM

The Bible instructs:
Job 8:8  For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers:  9  (For we [are but of] yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth [are] a shadow:)

Some go to quite some lengths to suggest that there is historical support for this doctrine having been in the church prior to John Nelson Darby.  Even a visit to raptureready.com, who censor alternate points of view, demonstrates the same bankruptcy in regard to historical precedent for this doctrine.

Thomas Ice, of the "Pre-trib Rapture Center", for example, points to a paper written in the 8th century by someone using a fake name - Pseudo Ephraem - as proof that the pre-trib rapture doctrine was taught in the church before John Darby penned his doctrine.  Even the title of Ice's paper suggests his volume of historical proof:   "Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement".  This is some entertaining reading, but so sad to see the lengths someone will go through to advance false doctrine.

http://www.scionofzion.com/pretrib_rapture_diehards.htm
http://www.according2prophecy.org/macphers.html
http://www.theologue.org/PRETRIBDESPERADOS-DaveMacPherson.html

Even in this thin case that Ice highlights, the argument that Pseudo Ephraem's paper is post-trib, is stronger.  And even if the paper was about a pre-trib rapture, would this be enough historical precedent on which to base a doctrine that is so clearly unsupportable by scripture, except through an inverted pyramid of pile-on presumption?  Seems appropriate to call it thin Ice.  Here is the website of the Pre-Trib Research Center.  Considering the importance of looking to the fathers of the former age, you would think they would include a special section regarding historical support for their doctrine if there was any.

But in either event regarding this single paper, it is unreasonable to suggest that this would have been the source of John Darby's pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.  The historical record shows that Darby, also called the "father of dispensationalism" was influenced by the Irvingites after attending several meetings, and that the Irvingites were influenced by a dream of a little Scottish girl named Margaret Macdonald, who dreamed up this pre-tribulation rapture.  There is even an argument however that even Margaret Macdonald's dream was post-trib!  And John Darby's eschatological doctrine is what found it's way into the 20th century western protestant church.  This cannot be reasonably refuted.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

Peter

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Re: Historical Support for Pre-trib Rapture Doctrine
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 08:53:11 AM »
Ditto for historical support for the pre-trib doctrine. More posts but nothing substantive:

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=46149

Here are the guys with the biggest axe to grind:
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRaptureinPseudoEphraem.htm
Why can we suppose it is that predatory administration at raptureready.com bans posts and banishes posters within moments of their posting scripture that is contrary to this doctrine? Try it yourself.
By the same token why is it that nobody has ever even been warned, much less banned, from this forum, and no posts ever removed?

Pretrib Research Center
http://www.pre-trib.org/

Grant Jeffrey's'Apocalypse' Debacle - By Tim Warner
http://www.scionofzion.com/pretrib_rapture_diehards.htm
http://www.theologue.org/PRETRIBDESPERADOS-DaveMacPherson.html
http://www.christianmediaresearch.com/cmc-73.html

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PeteWaldo

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Re: Historical Support for Pre-trib Rapture Doctrine
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2013, 05:08:22 PM »
Much info on Darby and his own history regarding the "pre-trib" "rapture".
http://www.scionofzion.com/pretrib_rapture_diehards.htm

Mike S

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Re: Historical Support for Pre-trib Rapture Doctrine
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2013, 12:52:01 PM »
Ditto for historical support for the pre-trib doctrine. More posts but nothing substantive:

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=46149

Here are the guys with the biggest axe to grind:
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRaptureinPseudoEphraem.htm
Why can we suppose it is that predatory administration at raptureready.com bans posts and banishes posters within moments of their posting scripture that is contrary to this doctrine? Try it yourself.
By the same token why is it that nobody has ever even been warned, much less banned, from this forum, and no posts ever removed?

Pretrib Research Center
http://www.pre-trib.org/

Grant Jeffrey's'Apocalypse' Debacle - By Tim Warner
http://www.scionofzion.com/pretrib_rapture_diehards.htm
http://www.theologue.org/PRETRIBDESPERADOS-DaveMacPherson.html
http://www.christianmediaresearch.com/cmc-73.html

Search
I tried it once (Rapture Ready), after I saw a dude ripping Brother Ellis apart. I tried to defend him, giving a more correct synopsis of what Ellis actually wrote in his book than the poster's review. I included links to The False Prophet,to support what I was saying, and the links were deleted and I was nearly banned. Haven't been back since.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Historical Support for Pre-trib Rapture Doctrine
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2013, 02:55:32 PM »
Ditto for historical support for the pre-trib doctrine. More posts but nothing substantive:

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=46149

Here are the guys with the biggest axe to grind:
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRaptureinPseudoEphraem.htm
Why can we suppose it is that predatory administration at raptureready.com bans posts and banishes posters within moments of their posting scripture that is contrary to this doctrine? Try it yourself.
By the same token why is it that nobody has ever even been warned, much less banned, from this forum, and no posts ever removed?

Pretrib Research Center
http://www.pre-trib.org/

Grant Jeffrey's'Apocalypse' Debacle - By Tim Warner
http://www.scionofzion.com/pretrib_rapture_diehards.htm
http://www.theologue.org/PRETRIBDESPERADOS-DaveMacPherson.html
http://www.christianmediaresearch.com/cmc-73.html

Search
I tried it once (Rapture Ready), after I saw a dude ripping Brother Ellis apart. I tried to defend him, giving a more correct synopsis of what Ellis actually wrote in his book than the poster's review. I included links to The False Prophet,to support what I was saying, and the links were deleted and I was nearly banned. Haven't been back since.

I tiptoed around RaptureReady for a little while picking my words carefully and posting material that didn't necessarily directly confront a pre-trib rapture. Maybe like a leopard-bear-lion thread or something like that. Administration was on me like a $2 suit within my first couple of posts. It wound up with admin being basically the only responder. Then they cast my thread(s?) into an outer-darkenss of their forum where access was limited. Nicolaitian heretics.

Mike S

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Re: Historical Support for Pre-trib Rapture Doctrine
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2013, 08:57:43 AM »
Here are the guys with the biggest axe to grind:
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRaptureinPseudoEphraem.htm

I just tried this link and it took me to this:

Oh great, now you've done it. You're completely lost.

You better go back to the RaptureReady.com home page and start over.

I went to the home page, and could not find the article. No surprise there, once they figured out it doesn't actually support their view.

PeteWaldo

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Re: Historical Support for Pre-trib Rapture Doctrine
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2013, 12:32:03 PM »
Here are the guys with the biggest axe to grind:
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRaptureinPseudoEphraem.htm

I just tried this link and it took me to this:

Oh great, now you've done it. You're completely lost.

You better go back to the RaptureReady.com home page and start over.

I went to the home page, and could not find the article. No surprise there, once they figured out it doesn't actually support their view.

Maybe Dave Dave MacPherson's detailed and comprehensive study helped them overcome that detail. Leaving them with absolutely no history of the pre-trib rapture doctrine to be found in the church, prior to John Darby's pen.
http://www.brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=3529.msg14665#msg14665

On youtube there is increasingly a mutiny against the pre-trib rapture. This one is by an outspoken Pastor Mark Anderson of Faithful Word Baptist Church and director/producer Paul Wittenberger titled "After the Tribulation", in which Pastor Roger Jimenez of Verity Baptist Church also participates. You will not get a good impression of Anderson if you review all the mad-cap stuff he says that is uploaded to youtube.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/pre_trib_rapture_left_behind.htm

Let alone that once these folks leave the pre-trib rapture behind, what have they got left? Christians helping Jews catch bullocks to sacrifice in the rebuilt temple for remission of sin?